[Submod] Alternative Traits-WIP

[Jake Armitage]

can't say much, in terms of compatibility they should be (seems so after a quick check of the tables)
In terms of effect values, can't say, probably they are more balanced for vanilla rather than testudo.

I haven't had time to check valerius' mod properly so I can't express an actual opinion.
We'll talk about that in the alcove 'cause there are a lot of things (character oriented) that can be made through the VPS.
Could be valerius' mod will be the core of the next changes as it could be they will be a sort of outcome. Dunno yet.

[nikossaiz]

You have propably right about balancing, i will play with it for a while to see what outcomes will take.

I will use the alcove for the results.

[valerius karamanus]

Hello niko! Yes I removed the external script that caused compatility issues, now it should be compatible with every other mod that does not edit export_triggers.

September was a really busy month for me unfortunately I couldn't touch this mod. Truth to be told I also lost my enthusiasm because of impossiblty of adding skills by scripting.

For this reason, I will revamp this submod and move Physical-Mental-Influential Attributes to the effect bundle bar, in the same manner Testudo's General Status feature handled. This way, we will have trait slots opened, and characters will be able to get personal traits like "Dishonest" or "Bad Ambusher" or "Extravagant" through the campaign, events, dilemmas etc.

Then if Jake permits we can easily port this feature onto his General Status feature, where instead of my Attributes system, his PIGS (Moral-Mental-Physical) system affects the trait acquisition.

Oh and btw, a complementary ancillary overhaul is on the way, where I revamp ancillaries and add dozens of historical ones.

[Jake Armitage]

because of impossiblty of adding skills by scripting

are you sure? isn't "force_add_skill" working?
the attila wiki describes this way and I can't understand if it's a typo or you have to use force_add_trait for skills too

Command: force_add_skill Description: Grant the specified character the specified skill, or adds a point if they already have it. Uses standard character lookup system Usage: force_add_trait("faction:france,surname:Bonaparte", "skill_key")

Then if Jake permits we can easily port this feature onto his General Status feature

I don't know yet what my plans are, honestly.
Surely some feature will pass through the VPS system ('cause it's much more elastic).
My first idea was to do a factional war weariness (quite easy to do) and then do a sort of leadership feature (refelecting every character) which comprehend a local war weariness too.
I was thinking to combine a couple of things (local war weariness, "random" health and something coming from traits/skills) into a final effect.
Maybe it will replace the PIGS feature, maybe not.
Have to think about.

complementary ancillary overhaul

Interesting...

[valerius karamanus]

Yeah pretty sure it is an obsolete command. I tried it every possible way be it via command queue index or forename-surname..

Ideas just flying inside your mind like the bag scene from American Beauty while you're thinking where to start, right? I know the feeling.

[nikossaiz]

Guys,

I know that great mods dont always ment to blend together but :

@Valerius

For this reason, I will revamp this submod and move Physical-Mental-Influential Attributes to the effect bundle bar, in the same manner Testudo's General Status feature handled. This way, we will have trait slots opened, and characters will be able to get personal traits like "Dishonest" or "Bad Ambusher" or "Extravagant" through the campaign, events, dilemmas etc.

I like the idea of free traits slots and definetely traits like "good fighter" etch . but this way wouldnt got incobatibiities with PIGs? As it is now ( testudo + traits ) it seems like your traits define the person ( personality, health, attributes, tallents, etch ) and PIGs general status is more like "mood of the day" the situation in which it is the general that specific turn ( who knows what happen and that philosophic, gentle, barbarian general get so upset and mentaly ill? somehow reminds me of waterllo and napoleon with his sickness the night before the battle. ) they seem to blend very well on a campaign and honestly i feel more attached to my generals. still have to check unballances since only yesterday i started a campaign for checking it . and anyway wouldnt be a problem with the general UI and the space for icons in it that we have?

complementary ancillary overhaul

Interesting...

very, very interesting

and lastly

@Valerius

The second trait of the general define a talent that have. good at commanding cavalry, good architect etch. What those traits exactlly do? quite reminding the pre-rome 2 UI without all those "weapon damage 2%, defence 0.5%" which is good but for the manual of it are some bonuses that grow if the general invest in his tallent?

[valerius karamanus]

I will update this mod as two different versions; a)standart version with my attribute system b)submod version for Testudo-Pigs using Jake's attribute system (provided he doesn't change it).

I understand your compatibility concerns. I recently tried Testudo for the first time in months (it was 1.2 or something when I last played), and I think it got much better and polished. Jake did a great job. His VPS is also very promising roleplaying-wise and it will be my playground in the future, if he permits sub-submods :)

Mindset is improvable yes. There are no effects in the base level, but if your character is young and intelligent, you can educate him and level up that trait to unlock some nice bonuses.

[Jake Armitage]

b)submod version for Testudo-Pigs using Jake's attribute system (provided he doesn't change it).
Dunno how you 're planning to do this but keep in mind the general status may have some changes actually...
I really don't know which ones yet...
So if it is something complicated I wouldn't do it if I were you

if he permits sub-submods
I permit everything, there's no problem in this.
But...
The main reason why I opened the alcove is t ohave more modders focusing on the same objectives (more or less).
Which means it would be a good thing (speaking about the way I see things) to decide a common project and then have local variations instead of having completely different core system about the same features.
I hope you're getting my point here...

To make just an example (at the point we are now) we can work on 4 different systems about a sort of RPG character overhaul
1) standard trait/skill system (where you're already building a good alternative)
2) PIGS general status
3) something similar to PIGS general status but through virtual points (more difficult to be explained but at the end it is always an effect)
4) the event system through that cdir condition you've tested

So... it would be important to write down a theoretical plan at some point, where we decide what works with what and how.
For example the health feature, it is surely a feature to have but it must be weigted properly across those 4 points. It can't be in everyone and being calculated in a differenet way.

My advices are
1) keep modding as you wish but keep in mind also that it would be better to have a collective system (speaking of advanced submods like testudo)
2) keep in mind that some of those 4) points might be completely different in comparison to what they are now (well, 3 and 4 are just in my head yet)

[userstupidname]

Love this mod! Haven't played a full campaign but it feels promising. Love the more distinct personalities.

However I miss the green subtexts that shows how I can improve a trait or what decreases it.
I know you have some miniguidance in the op and that how traits improve are quite logical.
But i'd love to have it in the subtext so you don't feel in the dark.

[nikossaiz]

valerius, i see in your starting thread that the photo showing the skill tree allows upgrates. The one i have in my playthrough ( testudo + your traits ) doesnt allow me to upgrate the skills further. Is it something wrong on my end? Also some skills seem way to big, ex. diplomatic bonus with all factions. ( also, are those bonuses from every general pille up? ) or +10 attack etch.

[userstupidname]

Same for me. Some are incredibly powerful like diplomacy +15 while research and siege trait lacks being able to be upgraded.
Or is it intended?

[valerius karamanus]

@userstupidname Thanks! I will definitely add education requirements or prepare a detailed document.

@nikossaiz Oh that picture is before I removed these skill pips. There are no problems at your end. All skills are single levelled. I don't know if I should reintroduce them as I think it is too arcadey. You learn something once after all.

Diplomatic bonus is made high to be more appealing. One thing I disliked in vannila DeI skills is that I always ended up selecting same skills for every character. Here my aim is to make every skill interesting and selectable. But I will tone it down if guys think it is exaggerated. Please continue with the suggestions.

[nikossaiz]

I would like to see skill levels reintroduced. Learning something is one thing, getting good at it is another. There are also those people that invest in the deep knowledge of that thing i understand it, now all skills look quite interesting. Reintroducing levels will keep them so and allow you to nurf them. Also, you put out the night battle skill? Was very powerful indeed, if somehow some ai generals have it also as a skill (rearly if ever i see an ai general with nightbattle skill) should reintroduced . Knight battles are an essential element in warfare afterall

[userstupidname]

@userstupidname Thanks! I will definitely add education requirements or prepare a detailed document.

@nikossaiz Oh that picture is before I removed these skill pips. There are no problems at your end. All skills are single levelled. I don't know if I should reintroduce them as I think it is too arcadey. You learn something once after all.

Diplomatic bonus is made high to be more appealing. One thing I disliked in vannila DeI skills is that I always ended up selecting same skills for every character. Here my aim is to make every skill interesting and selectable. But I will tone it down if guys think it is exaggerated. Please continue with the suggestions.

I love the idea of the system because it involves more decisive character traits and wealth accumulation + being able to make them pursue their talents for certaing things are really fun.

I like the more singular trait choices that you can only pick one. However I personally feel my character are much more flat that way. One ferocious warrior is as feracious as the other one.
And you end up with generals who has a little bit of everything. I don't feel I have one character starting out being a good governor and one who's high leveled and is a truly master governor.

Some sort of tree would still be fun to have to mark them growing, even it is by ''arcady'' steps rather then a pure organic growth.

[userstupidname]

@userstupidname Thanks! I will definitely add education requirements or prepare a detailed document.

@nikossaiz Oh that picture is before I removed these skill pips. There are no problems at your end. All skills are single levelled. I don't know if I should reintroduce them as I think it is too arcadey. You learn something once after all.

Diplomatic bonus is made high to be more appealing. One thing I disliked in vannila DeI skills is that I always ended up selecting same skills for every character. Here my aim is to make every skill interesting and selectable. But I will tone it down if guys think it is exaggerated. Please continue with the suggestions.

I love the idea of the system because it involves more decisive character traits and wealth accumulation + being able to make them pursue their talents for certaing things are really fun.

I like the more singular trait choices that you can only pick one. However I personally feel my character are much more flat that way. One ferocious warrior is as feracious as the other one.
And you end up with generals who has a little bit of everything. I don't feel I have one character starting out being a good governor and one who's high leveled and is a truly master governor.

Some sort of tree would still be fun to have to mark them growing, even it is by ''arcady'' steps rather then a pure organic growth, currently it feels pretty jarring that your rank 2 general suddenly is a diplomatic mastermind.

[TrippinDaJive]

Hello,

I've been playing a Roman campaign for almost 400 turns and I've gotta say...I'm not a fan of this submod. I like the notion of what it did but in the end, the effects became quite negligible. Which isn't really a big deal but I really dislike that the general abilities had been removed because it made every general behave the same way in battle. And because there is no "leveling" with the traits, the general will max out all available slots relatively quickly. This means that every turn I have to decline for a general to "level up" because it's impossible to select anymore skills. And it sucks that this submod isn't save-game compatible because I have to start all over if I want it removed :{

[valerius karamanus]

Hello,

I've been playing a Roman campaign for almost 400 turns and I've gotta say...I'm not a fan of this submod. I like the notion of what it did but in the end, the effects became quite negligible. Which isn't really a big deal but I really dislike that the general abilities had been removed because it made every general behave the same way in battle. And because there is no "leveling" with the traits, the general will max out all available slots relatively quickly. This means that every turn I have to decline for a general to "level up" because it's impossible to select anymore skills. And it sucks that this submod isn't save-game compatible because I have to start all over if I want it removed :{

Yes these are very good points. I haven't been able to play a +100 turn campaign for a long time, but I can imagine things going like your description. My persistence in simplicity of skill section caused the generals becoming too shallow (is that the right word in english?), and trait section more of a chore rather than uniqueness.
Hopefully reintroduction of skill levels (and more abilities tied with them) and personal traits will make characters more interesting post-middle game.

Unfortunately I have some real life issues lately so I can't put these babies to use.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[TrippinDaJive]

Hey, thanks for considering my opinion though! And yeah it's all right man, take your time and do what you gotta do I look forward to any further revision.

[Goffredo85]

Any news on a new version?

[Jake Armitage]

i think valerius is on pause, at least so he said some weeks ago.
but fear not, sooner or later (which means later...) his ideas will be developed