How does DeI compare to Ancient Empires mod in Attila

[volleyfire]

Just want to get some opinions. Dei has been out there for years and seems like a more matured mod. But due to older technology used in Rome 2, many things are not optimized. Just wonder if Ancient Empires is at a matured stage that can rival Dei.

[Dresden]

We ask people not to compare mods here and this is honestly an inflammatory topic to post in either mod's forum. They are for different games and are both made by great teams. I am not sure exactly your intention here but in my experience questions like these are not productive and are best asked in general forums rather than a specific mod's forum. Please keep it civil, if this is heading in the wrong direction the thread will be immediately closed.

[Jurand of Cracow]

In my recent experience both mods have their merits, but in the BAI department (how the AI plays the battles) the DeI is simply the best among the TW games, even though I really miss the data on dynamic morale changes from the ATW (and the spirit of the M2TW engine - for me this one provides the best immersion).
Besides, among a hundred of issues worth mentioning, I think that the sheer size of the features in DeI speaks for this mod, while a better engine (ATW over R2TW) speaks for the AE. Also the long time the DeI is developed and the number modders involved made it well-balanced in terms of amount of money, impact of the buildings, effects of the traits etc. For the AE there's still some way to go.
Anyway, don't forget the EBII for M2TW when deciding which ancient mod to play ;-)
JoC

[Goffredo85]

Well first of all before comparing the mods you should compare the actual games. Attila has several features more than Rome II that we all know of, so I won't list them here. That being said Rome II has received a lot more post-release love than Attila so, as much as it may seem strange, there are several features that are actually better in Rome II. Namely: engine optimization, more political intrigues, multi party factions, government changes and CAI/BAI. Then you have a less adequate world map for the time frame of the mod. Sicily made up of only one secondary settlement comes to mind. Imo this is one of the reasons why the AE team decided to have the mod start in 202 BC, at the end of the second punic war. Then you have to consider development stage. DEI has been in continuos development for several years with a somewhat "larger" team while AE at first moved from Rome II to Attila and now has a very dedicated but small team which, by their own admission, lacks in some areas (mainly scripting). As you can see things have been a little bit slower for AE, and it's not really fair to compare mods in such a different state of development but i'll try the same. All considered DEI has by far the best looking units with a consistent look and level of quality, while AE has lots of good looking units but some older ones. DEI has a more balanced and mature campaing, while AE's campaign is still somewhat unbalanced and with less avalaible factions. AE has a more history oriented focus than DEI which involves not only units and reforms but also buildings, technologies, army traditions and skills. This is one of the things i prefer over DEI. In fact in DEI buildings and technologies, while rebalanced in their effects, still taste like vanilla. Another thing i like more in AE is skills and army traditions. In DEI you have lots of skill/tradition trees with similar small effects spread all over the place, while in AE you have less trees but with more impactful effects and clear differences between general skills and army traditions effects. A typical case of less actually being more. Other things i like more in AE are squalor/PO malii coming mainly from upgrading the main building chain and the slow cultural conversion in newly conquered regions which makes the principal source of negative PO. Regarding battles DEI has the upper hand for me. While AE has a nice 1 hitpoint system, which reminds of older TW games, several choices made for the sake of realism regarding morale and fatigue actually put the AI at a disadvantage. Once AE will reach a more complete stage we will be left with two wonderful mods, both worth playing. We should be really grateful for the all the free time both teams have sacrificed to develop these two masterpieces.

[Swarbs]

The main difference is probably that DEI was released four years before AE, and I believe has a larger dedicated mod team. So whilst it is on an inferior engine, the modders have had lots of time to overcome many of the limitations of the engine, whilst AE is still trying to bring in some features. In particular AE is trying to address bugs with barbarian cultures, so these factions aren't playable yet, whilst DEI has every faction playable and polished.

Other than that, in my opinion the main other difference is the level of depth and involvement required. AE is easier to pick up and play, partly due to a more intuitive Attila engine. DEI requires more commitment to understanding the mechanics and, particularly on harder difficulties (and with the DEI hardcore mod), takes more time to get going. It took me a few campaigns just to make progress with DEI, whilst my initial AE campaigns were fairly smooth going even as a noob to the mod.

As Rome and Egypt in DEI, for example, you will require a good 10+ turns and skilled battle strategies just to take out the relatively smaller factions occupying settlements in your core provinces, then have big challenges with larger opponents. As Rome and Egypt in AE, I found it quite easy to take out Carthage and the Seleucids respectively, due to an easier (imo) battle experience and stronger economies. AE lacks a specific hardcore mod at the moment, which possibly contributed to that - I'm all about the long slog and big challenge rather than a smoother expansion.

[valerius karamanus]

Both of them are great mods imo. But for some reason I always find myself returned to Rome II. Maybe it is about Attila's map & icons. They're too dark and small and color palette bore the crap out of me. Map of Rome II is absolutely beautiful, even more than recent TW3K in my eyes.

There are some great features in AE I would kill to see in Rome II though, like horde mechanic, trait system, governorship system, expanded buildings etc.

[Dardo21]

I haven't played AE myself, but I've seen an inside look, they use part of the same assets, especially the Romans, who are building on the existing UMCenturion mod. I specifically like the building system that is carried over from EBII as well as the culture system, which allows for more complex cultural effects per region for their 'version' of cultural tensions.

[Icarus Smicarus]

I've played only a little of AE but the thing that stood out to me was the lack of cities in the Mediterranean region. The Attila map just wasn't made for the Hellenistic period in mind and it's a glaring problem for me. The mod is well made and definitely worth a look but I think the team backed the wrong horse when they picked the Attila engine, so to speak. I don't think many people expected CA to go back and improve Rome 2 in the way they did. Family tree, and the politics update sort of cancelled out any advantages Attila might have had.

[volleyfire]

We ask people not to compare mods here and this is honestly an inflammatory topic to post in either mod's forum. They are for different games and are both made by great teams. I am not sure exactly your intention here but in my experience questions like these are not productive and are best asked in general forums rather than a specific mod's forum. Please keep it civil, if this is heading in the wrong direction the thread will be immediately closed.

Hi Dresden. While I am a long time fan and admirer of your Dei mod and your dedication to the project, I find your attitude towards to people seeking information is troubling. The whole purpose of a forum is to help people find info, advance knowledge and freely express and share their opinions. While policing a forum is a necessary means to eradicate immoral behaviors, foul languages, evil intents and anything that's in contradiction of the well being of a free forum, it should not be used a tool to indiscriminately silence anything that you simply suspect of being bad. It should not be used as an excessive force to punish anyone who you may not like. Also, the good-or-badness of a post should be judged and analyzed on case by case basis. NOT every one of those posts with a subject line of "compare AE and Dei" is bad or has bad intentions. Did I ever ask to pit one camp of fans against the other? I am merely looking to hear about people's game play experience, especially those who have played both. You may say why don't you install both and find out yourself. In this real world we live in, not everything is as convenient as that. People may not have time to do the extensive tests. People may not have the money to get both games trying to decide which one to buy first. I don't think it is too far out of line to say that it is a forum's responsibility to provide such convenience for people share that kind of information. My original intention is simply to find out the relative maturity of each mod. I don't believe such a simple intent can be interpreted as anything sinister in nature.

[volleyfire]

I also would like to thank all of you who "dare" to share this "hot" topic under this "political" environment and your valuable experience. All of these are insightful and helpful.

[Sagat]

volleyfire, you're missing the point completely, Dresden is actually probably doing YOU a favor because what you're doing is like going on a Nike forum and asking about Adidas shoes... you're not going to create any sort of honest non biased discussion.
Did you also go on the Ancient Empires section and create an identical thread ?? you get my point ?


and I might as well give you my opinion while I'm at it... simply put Ancient Empires tried way too hard, first off they were literally YEARS behind their release date so it ticked a lot of people off... and when released it was so complex and unbalanced in many areas, they literally changed some core gameplay mechanics shortly after because of the immediate feedback....
Even in their upcoming new update that's supposed to release last month but late as usual, they're once again changing some building mechanics..

They basically bit off a massive piece that they were never able to chew.... still however, the more mods the better it is for us fans, so at the end of the day people are entitled to opinions, but nobody should be complaining.

[Dresden]

I also would like to thank all of you who "dare" to share this "hot" topic under this "political" environment and your valuable experience. All of these are insightful and helpful.

Hi Dresden. While I am a long time fan and admirer of your Dei mod and your dedication to the project, I find your attitude towards to people seeking information is troubling. The whole purpose of a forum is to help people find info, advance knowledge and freely express and share their opinions. While policing a forum is a necessary means to eradicate immoral behaviors, foul languages, evil intents and anything that's in contradiction of the well being of a free forum, it should not be used a tool to indiscriminately silence anything that you simply suspect of being bad. It should not be used as an excessive force to punish anyone who you may not like. Also, the good-or-badness of a post should be judged and analyzed on case by case basis. NOT every one of those posts with a subject line of "compare AE and Dei" is bad or has bad intentions. Did I ever ask to pit one camp of fans against the other? I am merely looking to hear about people's game play experience, especially those who have played both. You may say why don't you install both and find out yourself. In this real world we live in, not everything is as convenient as that. People may not have time to do the extensive tests. People may not have the money to get both games trying to decide which one to buy first. I don't think it is too far out of line to say that it is a forum's responsibility to provide such convenience for people share that kind of information. My original intention is simply to find out the relative maturity of each mod. I don't believe such a simple intent can be interpreted as anything sinister in nature.

No one is being "punished" or judged. I was giving a fair warning due to past experiences being a moderator and modder for 6 years. If you notice I didn't report or close the thread and let the conversation happen. I have seen plenty of threads like this spiral out of control quickly. The topic is about a mod team that we have partnered with in the past and consider friends (Not that it matters, my general policy is to stay away from mod comparisons no matter who it is).

As Sagat said, I was simply stating a fact. Coming to a DeI forum with a topic like this is not seeking any sort of unbiased discussion and has the potential to be inflammatory in my experience. The topic is probably better posted in a general forum.

[leonardusius]

I've played only a little of AE but the thing that stood out to me was the lack of cities in the Mediterranean region. The Attila map just wasn't made for the Hellenistic period in mind and it's a glaring problem for me. The mod is well made and definitely worth a look but I think the team backed the wrong horse when they picked the Attila engine, so to speak. I don't think many people expected CA to go back and improve Rome 2 in the way they did. Family tree, and the politics update sort of cancelled out any advantages Attila might have had.

The lack of cities/settlements is the first minus for both, DEI and AE in my opinion. Historically, in that time period there were at least 3 times more of them then in the game. Huge regions with only 1 city is a common thing in both games, which is utterly idiocy. Till CA will not provide the map tools, whenever i start a new game and see the map, I'm urged to close it after few turns. That's what i must pay for the sake of knowing (some) history.

[Sheridan]

Even in their upcoming new update that's supposed to release last month but late as usual, they're once again changing some building mechanics..

We only give estimations at this point. Delays are unfortunate and frustrating, but the time isn't being spent idling about. Every week I alone spend up to ~40-50 hours on the mod, and a lot gets done in that time which will translate into an update with more content, less bugs and better balance.

Patch 1.15 is larger than anything we've ever attempted before and has the influence of some new team members. While it is true that we have a record of missing our deadline, it should be put into context. AE was announced prematurely without the explicit consent of the whole team. It was a really destructive period for the whole project that nearly spelled an untimely and premature end to it. Key members left in the wake of this - notably the mod's own lead who (understandably) got burnt out. Since then we have been operating on a bare minimum strength, trying to keep going strong. The only permanent members are UMcenturion and myself. People ask why there was a delay of almost two years, from 2016 to 2018. The truth isn't complicated. I had my medical studies to focus on, UMC had work and life. When I finally got back to the project I had to expand my workload to include that of the members who left, which essentially meant sole responsibility for the entire database portion of the mod. Making out the intention behind building A or mechanic B was pure guesswork, thus why our release had its share of flaws and issues.

It was all frantic work where the focus was on getting as much as possible ready in the shortest amount of time. Unlike our initial release, the new 1.15 patch is very much its own thing - things and concepts that didn't work or fit in the grander picture were cut out. Focus is on polish and quality, not the previous quantity.

I still understand the frustration and disappointment from the community that we weren't able to meet expectations. We are working really, really hard to remedy that. And we are really grateful for all of you sticking with us for so long.

TL;DR - two members working really hard on a full project while trying to maintain balance with life.

[PietrolEremita]

Man you are being too hard on yourself. I never played AE but I heard good things about it. You shouldn't have to apologize for missing deadlines on what is really volunteer work.
We appreciate all the work you put in the mod. You, your team, the DEI team and all the others are a gift to the TW community, thank you.

[leonardusius]

We only give estimations at this point. Delays are unfortunate and frustrating, but the time isn't being spent idling about. Every week I alone spend up to ~40-50 hours on the mod, and a lot gets done in that time which will translate into an update with more content, less bugs and better balance.

AE is a very promising 'competitor' to DEI in my opinion. Maybe the best term is 'complement'.....but it lacks some so needed features; also, it have so few playable factions.

[Plush_Salmon]

A gift, ha?
More like sole reason of it's existance. Haven't seen good NEW titles from CA since pretty much Attila. And I'm here since the 1st Rome.

[Sheridan]

AE is a very promising 'competitor' to DEI in my opinion. Maybe the best term is 'complement'.....but it lacks some so needed features; also, it have so few playable factions.

Ha the irony that we're removing playable factions for 1.15

However they will be coming back stronger and better than before, in due time. I counted 17 factions playable for 1.15. My hope is to get Nomadic tribes out in 1.16 along with a makeover for the north-easternmost areas of the map. In total there are 27 officially planned factions.

Anyway, enough hijacking of the thread by me.

[leonardusius]

Ha the irony that we're removing playable factions for 1.15

However they will be coming back stronger and better than before, in due time. I counted 17 factions playable for 1.15. My hope is to get Nomadic tribes out in 1.16 along with a makeover for the north-easternmost areas of the map. In total there are 27 officially planned factions.

Anyway, enough hijacking of the thread by me.

That are good news only if 1.16 will not be released 3 years till now.....I'm aware of the huge work involved but AE still is wa...y behind DEI in this aspect.

[Icarus Smicarus]

Yes, as DEI started development YEARS before AE. They are also in making a mod set in an era distinct from the vanilla game, which requires a lot of additional work. Give them a damn break.