Beautiful maps of SSHIP: let's visit Iran

[bigdaddy1204]

Hello SSHIP team!

I came across this map earlier this week, and it got me thinking about SSHIP. I often play as the Seljuks and Abbasids, so I find myself looking at this area a lot. SSHIP is my favourite mod by the way (thanks SSHIP team!)

What this is telling us is that the red, yellow and brown areas are as green as Greece - 380mm of annual rainfall. In fact, the red and brown areas are considerably greener, with up to 1,500mm. The areas marked green on this map have about the same rainfall as central Anatolia. These areas are more green than dry. The purple areas represent areas where desert covers at least 25% of the land.



To this we can add a population map of Iran, which shows where people live in the country. It's interesting to see how closely this matches the areas of rainfall; all the major cities are either in, or close to, those yellow circles that mark 400mm of rainfall and higher. This includes Shiraz, Isfahan, Kirmanshah, Hamadan, Qazvin, and Rayy (now part of Tehran). Even Mashhad is in an area with 300mm of rainfall; a climate somewhere between Greece and central Turkey.



Finally, a quick look at Iran's rivers. Again, what this is showing us is that the rivers closely match both the areas where the rainfall is, and where most people live.



Now let's look at the kind of terrain that exists in these areas, notably the Zagros mountains and the areas mentioned above. Here are some photos of the scenery on the ground:



On the southern slopes of the Zagros:



And here is the famous Rudkhan castle, in north Iran:



Here's another photo of the Zagros:



And another:




And another:



Most players of SSHIP probably know that Iran has a long ancient history. Early agricultural communities such as Chogha Golan in 10,000 BC along with settlements such as Chogha Bonut (the earliest village in Elam) in 8000 BC, began to flourish in and around the Zagros Mountains. The south-western part of Iran was part of the Fertile Crescent where most of humanity's first major crops were grown, in villages such as Susa (where a settlement was first founded possibly as early as 4395 cal BC) and settlements such as Chogha Mish, dating back to 6800 BC; there are 7,000-year-old jars of wine excavated in the Zagros Mountains.

Historically, the Qanat, a subterranean aqueduct used for irrigation in agriculture, was one of the most significant and successful achievements of the Persian tradition. Qanats were in use millennia ago, and are still in use in contemporary Iran. In the medieval erea, a boom in the production and export of cotton made Iran the richest region of the Islamic caliphate.

Unfortunately though, when I play SSHIP I don't feel that the game is giving me an accurate depiction of the region. The SSHIP map is too desert, and doesn't have enough greenery, forest and rivers. In addition, the city of Kermanshah is missing, and I feel that it would be a great addition to the map. Located in the middle of the Zagros, this city lies to the north of Baghdad, and would make an ideal central point for conflicts between the Seljuk faction on the Iranian plateau, and the Abbasid faction in Mesopotamia (Iraq).

I'd be interested to know what you guys think of this, and whether you found it interesting. Thoughts?

[Lifthrasir]

Now, I'm sure you're working for the tourism office

More seriously, the climat map can be adjusted. No problem.

Regarding Kermanshah, that would mean removing a settlement somewhere else on the map. As Hamadan is close to it, that sound the most appropriate. However, what makes you think that Kermanshah was more important than Hamadan during the game period?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Historically, the Qanat, a subterranean aqueduct used for irrigation in agriculture, was one of the most significant and successful achievements of the Persian tradition. Qanats were in use millennia ago, and are still in use in contemporary Iran. In the medieval erea, a boom in the production and export of cotton made Iran the richest region of the Islamic caliphate.

Unfortunately though, when I play SSHIP I don't feel that the game is giving me an accurate depiction of the region. The SSHIP map is too desert, and doesn't have enough greenery, forest and rivers. In addition, the city of Kermanshah is missing, and I feel that it would be a great addition to the map. Located in the middle of the Zagros, this city lies to the north of Baghdad, and would make an ideal central point for conflicts between the Seljuk faction on the Iranian plateau, and the Abbasid faction in Mesopotamia (Iraq).

I'd be interested to know what you guys think of this, and whether you found it interesting. Thoughts?

Well, I'm not from the SSHIP team, but if you'd ask me, I'm happy with the Iran as it is now. A few years ago I've travelled there a dozen hundreds kilometers in the spring, and I may witness that it's indeed rocky, sandy, and not very green. The 12th century was still the warm time in the climate cycles (even if now it's perhaps dryer), so I don't think there's much difference.

While agreeing that quanat is a great achievement of engineering and was developed in Iran-lands in the ancient times, my question has always been: how much does it change if you compare it to the irrigation canals or simply wet climate? It allowed people to live out of lands, but I doubt it produced much surplus.

Furthemore, I don't think it was cotton which made Persia rich, but the social and political structures, advanced technology (inter alia, cotton growing) and a vast internal market of the islamic world, with (comparatively) little trade barriers.

I have no opinion on Kermanshach/Hamadan - in the Broken Crescent there're both. But it's better to use the SSHIP-team resources to develop the other parts of the mod, I think.

[Fardin]

Well, I'm not from the SSHIP team, but if you'd ask me, I'm happy with the Iran as it is now. A few years ago I've travelled there a dozen hundreds kilometers in the spring, and I may witness that it's indeed rocky, sandy, and not very green.

Which parts you traveled in? Maybe south or the eastern parts?

While agreeing that quanat is a great achievement of engineering and was developed in Iran-lands in the ancient times, my question has always been: how much does it change if you compare it to the irrigation canals or simply wet climate? It allowed people to live out of lands, but I doubt it produced much surplus.

Qanat is mostly for dry places where the flat canals will become dry because of the hot weather so we use under ground canals which there is no water evaporation.

Furthemore, I don't think it was cotton which made Persia rich, but the social and political structures, advanced technology (inter alia, cotton growing) and a vast internal market of the islamic world, with (comparatively) little trade barriers.

The trade made Persia rich, Iran is the gate of east to the west so the trade and silk road made Iranian kingdoms rich, Silk, Cotton, Spices and other eastern supplies and also the technology made Iran one of the greatest and richest kingdoms of the known world in that era.

Kermanshah and Hamedan are both from the most important ancient cities of Iran.

To the SSHIP team: We've made a mod about Iran(Parthian empire to be exact) but for Rome 2, Here is some parts of the map we designed for Iran, I hope it'll be a good inspiration:

[TheEmperor]

These maps can be useful for map_climates & map_ground_types. (Specially the first two)

Land Cover Map

Climates Map

Average Annual Temperature Map

[Lifthrasir]

Many thanks Fardin and TheEmperor. These maps are useful. I guess we need to make some part of our actual Iran map a bit "greener", around the Zagros mountains and the coastal part beside the Persian Gulf and Oman Sea. Then, more trees like you did in your Partian Empire mod and that should do.

Where I'm more "in trouble" is about the settlement choice. We have reached the game limits and if we want to add Kermanshah, we need to remove a settlement somewhere. As Hamadan is quite close, it looks like a good choice if we only consider the gameplay. However, I can't find any sources (that I can understand) showing which of these settlements was the most important during the 12th to 13th centuries.

[achilles-91]

I would suggest adding kermanash while removing sigilmasa. I played tons of campaings testing many things. And sigijmala is controled in 10% campaigns AND just for some times. 90% time it is rebel. THere are tons more small settlements that could be removed.

[bigdaddy1204]

Many thanks Fardin and TheEmperor. These maps are useful. I guess we need to make some part of our actual Iran map a bit "greener", around the Zagros mountains and the coastal part beside the Persian Gulf and Oman Sea. Then, more trees like you did in your Partian Empire mod and that should do.

Where I'm more "in trouble" is about the settlement choice. We have reached the game limits and if we want to add Kermanshah, we need to remove a settlement somewhere. As Hamadan is quite close, it looks like a good choice if we only consider the gameplay. However, I can't find any sources (that I can understand) showing which of these settlements was the most important during the 12th to 13th centuries.

Hi Lifthrasir, thanks for your message.

I think one solution could be to delete Konjikala, which is one of three settlements close together at the eastern part of Iran. There's not much need to have 3 settlements there as it's at the edge of the map and is unlikely to be fought over by any other faction. The city doesn't do anything useful and there is already Nishapur and Merv nearby.


Kermanshah and Hamadan are both quite important. Under Seljuk rule in the eleventh century, Kermanshah became the major cultural and commercial center in western Iran and the southern Kurdish region as a whole. Meanwhile, Hamadan was the Seljuk capital for a time in the 11th century. What do you think?

[Lifthrasir]

Removing Sigilmasa would leave a huge empty space in west Sahara. I agree that it wouldn't affect much the gameplay. However, I'm not in favor to leave great empty spaces on the map, especially to add a settlement close to another one.

[Fardin]

Many thanks Fardin and TheEmperor. These maps are useful. I guess we need to make some part of our actual Iran map a bit "greener", around the Zagros mountains and the coastal part beside the Persian Gulf and Oman Sea. Then, more trees like you did in your Partian Empire mod and that should do.

I should thank you for noticing our feedback, I really appreciate it.
You should add the north western parts and also the area around the Alborz mountains to the "greener" list and remove the coastal parts of Persian gulf(but not the south western parts) ,These parts are not so green, They're semi-arid but not desert.
The Sisitan va Baluchistan province(south eastern parts) used to be very green and one of the greatest agricultural hubs of Asia about 100 years ago but in recent century it became dry, So you should add it to the list too.

Where I'm more "in trouble" is about the settlement choice. We have reached the game limits and if we want to add Kermanshah, we need to remove a settlement somewhere. As Hamadan is quite close, it looks like a good choice if we only consider the gameplay. However, I can't find any sources (that I can understand) showing which of these settlements was the most important during the 12th to 13th centuries.

Hamadan was more important than Kermanshah if you're asking but they were both very important in those centuries.

[bigdaddy1204]

With Kermanshah, I think having it as a Fortress or even Citadel could be a good move. At the moment, there aren't any big castles near Iraq (al-Wasit is just a basic castle and it never levels up). Turning Kermanshah into a powerful fortress right on the frontier between Abbasids and Seljuks could be good. Thoughts? (Also, what do you think about deleting Konjikala?)

Here are some photos of Kermanshah province. These can be used to help create the terrain; would it be possible (in the game) when fighting a battle on that area, it looks like this?

[Lifthrasir]

Not without a quite huge amount of work

[achilles-91]

I completly agree with swaping konjikala with kermanshash.

[j.a.luna]

Yes the idea about turning kermansha in a powerful fortress between abbasies and selyuks is good!
And also delete konjikala, if it is historical correct is good for the next release no sship team?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Yes the idea about turning kermansha in a powerful fortress between abbasies and selyuks is good!
And also delete konjikala, if it is historical correct is good for the next release no sship team?

My question is: why the SSHIP team has put Konjikala on map? Whad did the historian at that time say? It's indeed a third settlement in a very small space, so there must have been reasons? Or maybe it was for the gameplay - to bolster up core territories? Maybe it was needed to prevent some strange developments on the map? No idea.

As far as citadel issue is concerned: one of the things I like in the SS is the development process of the cities and units. At the beginning you've got only small towns and wooden castles providing crappy militia, but then thanks you your chivarous generals you get to the higher level, you get better troops, yeah, that's fun! You need to have those skilled generals, so you play battles to get helmets, you educate them to have those benefits etc. If it's not present, I give up a game or a mod - it's what happened to me with BGRV, when Byg dumped the character traits to get faster turns.
On the units' side - you start with crappy militia and you get better units as the tima passess and you build infrastructure. Nice gameplay. In SSHIP I started a campaign with the Rum Seljucs I noticed that they have a city of 70 thousand citizens, I asked myself: what can I achieve? Just one level? I have so good units available. So what's the point of playing? Only the number of battles? And I gave up. (well, maybe I'll come back one day, just didn't want to start with so big city)
It's why I really like to play Poland - small settlements at the begining, much to do, but without the initial grab of the neighbouring neutral provinces. Actually, I'd even make them smaller, some seem historically too big (eg. Płock might have been the seat of the duke, but it was pood and small). I was so disappointed after having taken Połock and Novogrod - large cities with much of infrastructure, nothing to do...
Of course, it might be historically correct to have a huge city in Constantinople or Baghdad, but they had huge feritile lands and great technology to provide food. Most of the settlements in the middle ages were small at that time. Admittedly, in the Near East the cities were bigger and lands reacher at that time, but I doubt the technology for castles and citadels was so developed - at least it's what I infere from the books on the castles.

[Lifthrasir]

All settlements on the map are made accuratly depending on how important was their population during the 12th century. No fantasy at all with that. So, if Polock appears as a huge town, that's because it was one during the 12th century.

Regarding Konjikala, I have no idea as it was decided before I got involved in SSHIP.

If Kermanshah is added, I'm not sure how it will appear on the map

[Jurand of Cracow]

All settlements on the map are made accuratly depending on how important was their population during the 12th century. No fantasy at all with that. So, if Polock appears as a huge town, that's because it was one during the 12th century.

Concerning Połock and Novgorod - I agree they were very important centres, big cities (especially Novgorod, I'm not sure about Polock. Russia was much advanced technologically than Poland or Hungary. What were the numbers, I don't know. Maybe I'd find something the book: http://www.cambridge.org/pl/academic...me-1?format=PB In general, I'm happy with how they are in the SSHIP.

Concerning fantasy - I understand and fully support this principle. It's why I'm playing SSHIP. And it's why I'm rather sceptical of adding or making something bigger - somebody in the SSHIP team made research before, made comparisons, and came out with the map and the numbers. If something was already made in SSHIP, it's better to keep it, unless there're well argumented reasons to do so (ehm, some crowns are really strange for instance... I'll write about it at some point).

Some thoughts not so related to the previous post:

Obviously, the problems are with the sources. Do we really know how many people lived in the cities? The written sources are notoriously not reliable. The sources from the religious circles (be it Armenian, be it Muslim, be it Western Christian) usually inflate the numbers enourmously. You should probably not take anything from them. It's why I'm asking about the historian's (specialized in the era and the region) opinion and whether something linger in the written memory of SSHIP.

There's a good book by Collin McEvedy (who was archeologist, demograph and medical doctor) who counted the numbers from various sources (especially archeological), made himself field-visits to the places, counted the inhabitable areas, used technical knowledge (how many people lived in a building, how many storeys had a building, how much space etc.) and came to many interresting conclusions. In general, for the the cities in the Ancient times he deflated the numbers by ratio 3 to 5. The most notable one is Rome, hailed to be 1 milion, but for McEvedy the most optimistic count would be 250 thousands. Similar for Constantinople - and actually I'm happy that this number in SSHIP is 150k, not 500k or more, as appearing in other sources.
https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/1804...assical-world/

[bigdaddy1204]

If Kermanshah is added, I'm not sure how it will appear on the map

You're the boss

One possible option is something similar to how it's been done before. Kermanshah is a province in Broken Crescent. Here's a screenie of how it looks on their map (Kermanshah is a fortress). I remembered it's one of the most important settlements in the area, mainly because large numbers of high quality units can be trained there. I'd tend to agree with it being a fortress, as this seems to make sense given that Baghdad and Hamadan are both cities.



And here's it's position, relative to Baghdad:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Lifthrasir]

@ JoC, agree but this is not the right thread to discuss about that topic. If you want to discuss about population during the medieval period, feel free to carry on in the General Discussion thread

@ bigdaddy1204, if Kermanshah is implemented, it would probably be as a castle. The population in there during the 12th century was not enough important to make it as a fortress or citadel. Note that it still requieres research.

[bigdaddy1204]

@ bigdaddy1204, if Kermanshah is implemented, it would probably be as a castle. The population in there during the 12th century was not enough important to make it as a fortress or citadel. Note that it still requieres research.

I'm not sure about this, unfortunately I allowed someone to borrow my best Iran book

I did find two sources online:
1. Under Seljuk rule in the eleventh century, Kermanshah became the major cultural and commercial center in western Iran and the southern Kurdish region as a whole.
2. Under Seljuq rule in the 11th century, it was the chief town of Kordestān.

We probably need more academic sources though.