Elves population

[frogg222]

I've got my eleven cities on the lowest tax and that is only keeping them at neutral population growth. How can I get my elves to make more babies in those cities xD

[CountMRVHS]

Population growth is perhaps the chief concern for the Elves throughout the campaign, and that is intended. The Fourth Age is the Dominion of Men, after all - the Elves are leaving Middle-earth, so it wouldn't make sense for them to be increasing much in numbers.

So most of your towns will have neutral pop growth at best. In your eastern settlements, though, you can achieve positive growth with low taxes and the right buildings; check the building browser to see what you need to construct to do that.

If you're just interested in population and don't care whether it's Elves or Men, you may also build those "Lindon" or "Wilderland" buildings - but be careful! Those buildings remove Elves from your lands and invite Men to move in. So you will have positive growth, but will lose the ability to train any more Elven troops (instead you will be able to train Mannish "Elvellyn").

[athanaric]

Or alternatively, if you aren't concerned very much with lore accuracy, you could just enslave the population of conquered towns and thus move them to your own settlements

[caspoi]

Population growth is perhaps the chief concern for the Elves throughout the campaign, and that is intended. The Fourth Age is the Dominion of Men, after all - the Elves are leaving Middle-earth, so it wouldn't make sense for them to be increasing much in numbers.

So most of your towns will have neutral pop growth at best. In your eastern settlements, though, you can achieve positive growth with low taxes and the right buildings; check the building browser to see what you need to construct to do that.

If you're just interested in population and don't care whether it's Elves or Men, you may also build those "Lindon" or "Wilderland" buildings - but be careful! Those buildings remove Elves from your lands and invite Men to move in. So you will have positive growth, but will lose the ability to train any more Elven troops (instead you will be able to train Mannish "Elvellyn").

Note that those buildings are the gardens of the silver light (requires gardens of the golden light) and in the case of the Elvenking's Halls also the elvenking's feasting hall which requires the feasting hall.

Or alternatively, if you aren't concerned very much with lore accuracy, you could just enslave the population of conquered towns and thus move them to your own settlements

But no one would ever do that right?

[frogg222]

Ah I see! thank you! I figured it must have been something like that. I was excited to see the pop growth for Lindon, but then noticed I couldn't train elf troops anymore.

Haha, and yeah I noticed that the enslaving button increases your population a tad xD

Are the main elf cities the only places that you can recruit elves? Or is that any option to kick out the humans and have my elves come in and take over?

[MasterOfNone]

Elves are only recruitable in their starting provinces and in Rivendell, so long as no Mannish conversion has been triggered (it is not reversible).

[frogg222]

Elves are only recruitable in their starting provinces and in Rivendell, so long as no Mannish conversion has been triggered (it is not reversible).

Alright cool, thanks!

[James_Northstar]

There's always the old trick of training lots of low-cost units (peasants in the original Rome Total War) in a bunch of cities, and then moving them all to the province you want to upgrade and disbanding them there, in a sort of "forced migration".

Really, though, whoever assumed that low birthrate would equate to low population-growth for the Elves didn't understand how population-dynamics actually work.


I'm a biologist in real life, so trust me I understand (and have studied) population dynamics..


Elves essentially live forever (being essentially immune to both aging and disease) unless killed in battle, and yet they still reproduce. That means low birthrate but even lower deathrate...


Population Growth = Birth Rate - Death Rate


So, even a very low birthrate can add up to respectable growth-rates if the deathrate is low enough. In fact, in an aging population you can still have rapid population growth with less than 1 babies born per woman- this is a big part of why China's population continues to grow so quickly despite the One-Child Policy!

The basic idea is that there is a lag between falling birth rates and the average age of the population increasing enough to lead to the death-rate rising to even it out. However, there is no correlation between age and remaining life-expectancy with Elves (in fact, if anything, older Elves are wiser and more skilled in combat- and thus likely to live longer!) so death-rates never would rise to catch up!


The simple fact that elderly Elves never die, and in fact don't even necessarily have to leave the subset of mating individuals (although in lore, elderly elves have children less often) would mean that their numbers would actually increase at a comparable rate to much faster-breeding races!

Now, of course, this is before taking into account their migration to the West, but it's mostly the elderly elves (who have already stopped reproducing) who are leaving anyways, so it really doesn't make sense for it to have as strong an impact on population-growth as it does...




Long Story Short:
Elves would actually end up with a Malthusian-style overpopulation problem rather than a population shortage, despite their low birth rates!



The simplest and best way to *accurately* simulate things for the Elves would be to give their cities a massive natural Health bonus (which improves population-growth AND resistance to plagues erupting- remember Elves are nearly impervious to disease), but balance it with a large hit to population-growth and possibly an unhappiness penalty (Unrest due to "Ennui", tiredness/boredom from an immortal life, but really to prevent the Health bonus from leading to excessive population-happiness...) This would at least have the effect of protecting Elven cities against Plague (which they really should be immune to), and also make room for buildings and character-traits that could reduce Ennui (by reducing the Unrest penalty) a bit...


Regards,
Northstar

[acci_dent]

Now, of course, this is before taking into account their migration to the West, but it's mostly the elderly elves (who have already stopped reproducing) who are leaving anyways, so it really doesn't make sense for it to have as strong an impact on population-growth as it does...

it isn't just the older elves who are leaving though. the fourth age marks the end of the elves in middle earth; they are all heading west (eventually).

It's also worth noting that the population in elven cities is a gameplay consideration, not meant to be a literal representation of the number of elves living in the city. It's capped to limit the number of soldiers available to the Elven faction, simulating the growing reluctance of Elves to go to war or otherwise meddle in the affairs of Middle Earth.

[caspoi]

Well, even when they live for many thousands of years it is not uncommon for elves not to have more than one child. Add in those who leave the settlements and it is not illogical that the population growth is small (and still, 0.5 % is not that bad).

[James_Northstar]

Well, even when they live for many thousands of years it is not uncommon for elves not to have more than one child. Add in those who leave the settlements and it is not illogical that the population growth is small (and still, 0.5 % is not that bad).

Having even only one child can still lead to very rapid population-growth if the death-rate is small, as China currently provides such a clear example of... Death-rate MUST balance birth-rates or your get population-growth, no matter *how* small the birth-rate is...

it isn't just the older elves who are leaving though. the fourth age marks the end of the elves in middle earth; they are all heading west (eventually).

Two problems with that stream of thought:

(1) Elves are so long-lived that "eventually" could mean hundreds or thousands of years down the line. They simply aren't all packing up an leaving at once. The remaining elves are probably staying until they feel they've accomplished everything important left to do (such as crushing the new shadow) at the very least...

(2) Your thought process assumes all elves think alike. They do NOT- as Legolas Greenleafs' irreverence for certain elder elves in the original Lord of the Rings trilogy so aptly demonstrated. It's quite possible that the remaining Elves of the Woodland Realm, Lorien, and the Grey Havens represent those who have decided NOT to leave for one reason or another- including love of their homes (Lorien), the nearby seas (Grey Havens), and a more warlike nature and unwillingness to tolerate evil compared to their brethren (The Woodland Realm- the Elves from this area went to war against evil MUCH more often than other groups of Elves in Tolkien lore... There are accounts of continued warfare by these Elves even after the end of the War of the Ring in some of Tolkien's works, not limited merely to cleansing Mirkwood...)

The Elves aren't a hive-mind, and some of them may not WANT to leave (although their children might- hence why structures that slow migration West could still be justified as leading to higher population-growth), thus it's illogical to think that they would ALL want to leave eventually. Given the Elves' original numbers, those that remain comprise a very small fraction of the original Elvish populations at their height- thus it's quite possible these are a stubborn few who don't *want* to leave. All the in-game text about forming a kingdom of elf-friendly men (Evellyn) ruled by Elves supports this assertion- maybe this is a small and unique remnant that still thinks they might be able to do more good by remaining in Middle Earth and guarding against the ever-present forces of evil in this one last ploy (having men make up the bulk of their armies and kingdom while the Elves only provide the wise and morally-pure leadership to fight said evil...)

It's also worth noting that the population in elven cities is a gameplay consideration, not meant to be a literal representation of the number of elves living in the city. It's capped to limit the number of soldiers available to the Elven faction, simulating the growing reluctance of Elves to go to war or otherwise meddle in the affairs of Middle Earth.

Ahhh, but the "Available Able-Bodied Population" DOES impact tax-income and trade. If that was the intention, whoever coded it went about it entirely wrong... You would have to decouple population from tax/trade income for THAT assertion of the figures' real meaning to have any weight whatsoever...



I did forget that population is not a requirement for upgrading cities in Fourth Age Total War when I wrote my previous post. So at least THAT isn't dependent on having a large, thriving Elven population... In fact, the higher-level buildings you can construct (like Gardens of the Silver Light) increase the Elvish population, so if anything population follows city-upgrades rather than the other way around with the Elves...


Regards,
Northstar

[caspoi]

Having even only one child can still lead to very rapid population-growth if the death-rate is small, as China currently provides such a clear example of... Death-rate MUST balance birth-rates or your get population-growth, no matter *how* small the birth-rate is...

But one child per family (two elves) will hardly be enough to sustain a viable population if the elves also leave middle earth. if the average elf has a child every 200 hundred years (being optimistic and discounting any losses in elven life) then it would only grow by 0.5 %.

EDIT: and this is not even considering that a turn is shorter than a year

[acci_dent]

(1) Elves are so long-lived that "eventually" could mean hundreds or thousands of years down the line. They simply aren't all packing up an leaving at once. The remaining elves are probably staying until they feel they've accomplished everything important left to do (such as crushing the new shadow) at the very least...

(2) Your thought process assumes all elves think alike. They do NOT- as Legolas Greenleafs' irreverence for certain elder elves in the original Lord of the Rings trilogy so aptly demonstrated. It's quite possible that the remaining Elves of the Woodland Realm, Lorien, and the Grey Havens represent those who have decided NOT to leave for one reason or another- including love of their homes (Lorien), the nearby seas (Grey Havens), and a more warlike nature and unwillingness to tolerate evil compared to their brethren (The Woodland Realm- the Elves from this area went to war against evil MUCH more often than other groups of Elves in Tolkien lore... There are accounts of continued warfare by these Elves even after the end of the War of the Ring in some of Tolkien's works, not limited merely to cleansing Mirkwood...)

The Elves aren't a hive-mind, and some of them may not WANT to leave (although their children might- hence why structures that slow migration West could still be justified as leading to higher population-growth), thus it's illogical to think that they would ALL want to leave eventually. Given the Elves' original numbers, those that remain comprise a very small fraction of the original Elvish populations at their height- thus it's quite possible these are a stubborn few who don't *want* to leave. All the in-game text about forming a kingdom of elf-friendly men (Evellyn) ruled by Elves supports this assertion- maybe this is a small and unique remnant that still thinks they might be able to do more good by remaining in Middle Earth and guarding against the ever-present forces of evil in this one last ploy (having men make up the bulk of their armies and kingdom while the Elves only provide the wise and morally-pure leadership to fight said evil...)

Sure, there are some elves who might want to hang around to help fight the threat of the new shadow, that's why it is still possible for an Elven Kingdom player to somewhat reverse the population decline. However Tolkien is pretty clear that the Elves do eventually all depart Middle Earth, one way or another. They're not a hive mind, but the desire to head West is almost universal.

Ahhh, but the "Available Able-Bodied Population" DOES impact tax-income and trade. If that was the intention, whoever coded it went about it entirely wrong... You would have to decouple population from tax/trade income for THAT assertion of the figures' real meaning to have any weight whatsoever...

The connection between population and tax/trade income is hardcoded, unfortunately, but the effect is pretty minimal at the sort of low numbers you see in Elven cities. It's not an ideal solution, but modding is all about compromises

Death-rate MUST balance birth-rates or your get population-growth, no matter *how* small the birth-rate is...

I think this might be where the main difference between our understandins lies. You're correct that the Elves have a very low rate of death, but they also have a very high rate of West-heading-ness, which is what FATW is attempting to simulate.

[webba84]

Ahhh, but the "Available Able-Bodied Population" DOES impact tax-income and trade. If that was the intention, whoever coded it went about it entirely wrong... You would have to decouple population from tax/trade income for THAT assertion of the figures' real meaning to have any weight whatsoever...

By "whoever coded it" I assume you mean the CA dev responsible, since it is not possible for modders to decouple population from tax-income or trade. Its also not possible to set population growth (by whatever combination of farming, health, and pop modifiers) at anything other than multiples of 0.5%, nor is it possible to determine it in any way expect as a percentage of existing population.

So, as it is now, is about as well as RTW will allow it to be set up, which is pretty good considering the game was never designed to represent settlements of multiple different species.

0.5% means a settlement with a minimum population of 400 experiences 2 births every turn (6months) For elves, given what we know of them in the First Age (where only literally uncounted years of peace allowed their populations to swell) thats ridiculously fast, even without taking deaths into account (which the RTW population mechanics dont btw). Lorewise we should lower the population growth even further except we cant without making it 0, which causes gameplay issues

And yes, we are assuming a large exodus over the seas by this point, where they aren't fading or just giving up their lives and travelling straight to the Halls of Mandos voluntarily (something that elves can do which you seem to have overlooked). You can see this in the death description for elven family members, among other things. This is the mostly likely interpretation of the little Tolkien writes about elves in the Fourth Age.

The population growth as it is can then be taken to represent those elves that, as you say, dont want to leave and are not tired of Middle-earth yet, and the top tier buildings which boost population growth can be considered places or things that would entice elves to stay.