UNITS ROSTERS discussion

[Hellvard]

Many textures for units and some strat map model from SSHIP (or vanilla Stainless Steel) are taken from Bulat Steel.

I think it's in the other way around BS is using models and textures from many various mods.

[j.a.luna]

SSHIP TEAM, I have recovered this conversation by "old Ichon" about new factions units roster, i understand that you are very busy with other stuffs and i hope that improve other units rosters as scottish or norwegian(Lifth said that when he could, he will make improve them)but i want to remember other units roster for improve as muslims or cumans... here a little description about cuman roster and also zengid roster that Ichon and Lifth made some years ago...i think that is correct and pretty interesant add this in a future release if is possible and the time allows it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

EDU is full but we are working on freeing more space- mostly be removing units which don't appear until after 1450 which takes several hundred turns to reach and very few people play that many turns.

So initially we will have room for about 30 new units- after that there is maybe a dozen more unit slots we can free but then it will get very difficult.

Keep in mind faction rosters often start with one style of unit to a kingdom/culture and than transform to something else. For example Moors start as Almoravids which feature many Moroccan and west African units then transform to Almohads whose base of power was more the central Maghrib/Algeria and the Berber tribes until finally ending as the Kingdom of Granada which fought in a style very similar to the Christian kingdoms though with north African influence still visible. Also throughout these changes the taifas and large cities had their own culture which contributed some soldiers such as crossbowmen, guild spearmen, and some other specialists.

Rum will probably gain Ottoman units, Fatimids gain Mamluks, etc.

The weakest faction rosters in my opinion currently;

1. Cumans
2. Moors
3. Rum
4. Serbia
5. Abbasids
6. Zengids
7. AOR and Mercenary units

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Proposed units;

Cumans- it appears that the various tribal confederations were nearly always fighting as cavalry themselves but did make use of allied and vassal peoples for other roles. Cumans were the overlords of several cities and very active in trade around the Black sea where they held the principal slave depot of the Mediterranean as well taxed the various Armenian and Italian colonies. In sieges the Cumans did make use of both Italian and Greek engineers and some evidence of using Italian crossbowmen in limited amounts (mostly their own arrows were good enough but crossbowmen in siege had some advantages).

There is substantial evidence that Cumans made use of Alans for infantry as well as Rus and Vlachs.

Alans were at this point controlling the lands north west of Caucuses and into the mountains some distance. Formerly a steppe people themselves forced to survive waves of migrant steppe peoples they mixed with Caucus hill tribes and lived partly off the steppes and may even have been considered part of the Cuman confederation before Mongol invasion. Alans contributed some heavier cavalry copied from Greek and Georgian influence but specialized in medium infantry often armed with javelins and axes.

Cumans intermarried and had very intense relationships with Rus princely families and probably lower ranked Rus as well though only the contacts with princely families is recorded well. Different Cuman clans had alliances with various Rus princes and would often respond to allied requests for help in the internal Rus wars as well as raiding Rus territories for slaves to supply the trade to Mediterranean and middle east. Rus princes nearly as often came to help Cumans in their own internal disputes and in the Cumans wars with neighboring states. Rus who arrived to help Cumans were most often mounted but were more comfortable dismounting than Cumans and fighting on foot as heavy infantry. Sometimes Rus fought as pure mercenaries and there might well even been a few Norse who fought as mercenaries for Cumans just as the Byzantines famous Varangian Guard which was first Scandinavians, then Rus, and finally mostly English. There were organized Rus/Scandinavian raids onto the Caspian throughout 1000s but less is known for sure about the 1100s when this mod starts but some confused reports of Rus raids and even Rus aiding Khwarezmians in conquest of Gilan appear as late as 1174 so the likelihood of Rus mercenaries or pirates at least as far as the Caspian basin seems probable.

As the Cumans pushed the Pechenegs west and eventually pursued them into Bulgaria they came into contact with various Vlachs who inhabited the Balkans and Black Sea periphery. With the defeat of the Pechenegs the westernmost 3 tribes (of 12 to 17 present in Cuman confederation) patrolled the Balkans up to the Carpathians and often made use of allied/vassal soldiers in the rough and forested terrain as light/medium infantry.

1. Alan medium/heavy melee cavalry in the Byzantine/Georgian style in limited numbers from Cuman castles.
2. Alan medium infantry with javelin and axes available in slightly higher numbers from Cuman castles.
3. Select Rus units in a Cuman mercenary building representing allied Rus princes.
4. Varangian/Rus river pirate mercenaries.
5. Vlach light infantry with hide ability from Cuman mercenary building

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...t-appreciated)

maybe the best solution and fast could be, make more mercenary units recruitable into the current building that exist in sship called "mercenary building" in the different regions of campaign map, for example:
MERCENARY BUILDING
-Mercenaries Cumans horsearchers...recruiting in hungarians,rus,byzantines,georgians,steppes regions(when te correct time come)

same for other units as alans,vlachs,bulgars,armenians...
Repeat, i think that is a good solution for improve some units roster, make this mercenary building and recruit some specific units of other factions or minor factions as bulgarians(historically correct)for me this building is very useful, i dont know if is possible add the same unit of a faction or make a new unit as "mercenary".
Furthemore, could make a tree building for this and differents upgrades how ''mercenary post office'' and the last upgrade how ''mercenary headquarters''or something similar with decrease law and happy but the cost of mercenaries decrease and the recruitment pool increase


Also it would be interesant that when team can,begin to make a register about units that could be eliminate in the next release for obtain more free slots, how you know i made it in the first post, it would be good if could resumed again...

[j.a.luna]

i saw little "bugs" or deficiencies in the current sship,about english roster...
1.dont exist foot norman knights in english roster, only norman knights(cavalry) but for sicilians exist both units and englishmen also were normans people...
2.yeoman archers dont have any armour(0 Armour) and they have chain mail and helmet in their models(sandy models)
3. Exist heavy sergeant swordmen and swordmen sergeant..both units are pretty similar and we could save more free slots...my solution is give them the upgrade armour to sergeant swormen and eliminate the model and unit for heavy swordmen sergeant...(look my list about save more free slots...)
4. similar issue for unit called urban militia, exist other "general" units called urban spear militia
5.other unit called sergeant militia,all very similar between them
6.Fyrd spearmen and their model can be eliminate and "utilize" this model unit for others, fyrd spearmen can be replaced for spear militia


and all this unit roster problem exist in other factions...if you want i can give solutions and give problems in the differents rosters...

[Lifthrasir]

Not the right place for that. There's a dedicated thread (you've created it btw).

Also, on a side note, English and Normands aren't the same: English aren't limited to Normands

[j.a.luna]

Not the right place for that. There's a dedicated thread (you've created it btw).

Also, on a side note, English and Normands aren't the same: English aren't limited to Normands

ok you can move my comment to new factions units roster thread,only that for me these are little "bugs"
but for foot norman Knight, do you think that they should be in english roster?(similar to sicilian roster)
Also some units as yeoman archers and other should be revised, due to they have little bugs in their stats(0 armour and they have chain mail and helmet)

[achilles-91]

Hi there. I have one question to sship team. Do you need help with muslim rosters? I've done large researche last few years for 'Saracens' of 12th century, so I can help you with regulation of muslim factions. Units that I researched have they purpose, some represent light troops, some represent medium, heavy... ETC. There is no piled troops like in current SSHIP version (example: tons of spearmens for muslim factions).

[j.a.luna]

Hi there. I have one question to sship team. Do you need help with muslim rosters? I've done large researche last few years for 'Saracens' of 12th century, so I can help you with regulation of muslim factions. Units that I researched have they purpose, some represent light troops, some represent medium, heavy... ETC. There is no piled troops like in current SSHIP version (example: tons of spearmens for muslim factions).

The last thing that Lifth tell about muslim roster was in January

We'll see what we can do but until there's something decided in the team, I prefer to not say anything

, so maybe now sship team know more about implemented new muslim roster or improve units
I think that achilles could help with muslims units and replaced the old annoying vainilla units and non historical...

[Lifthrasir]

@ j.a.luna, let's not put the cart before the horse
Before discussing models, let's start with unit rosters.

@ achilles-91, if you want to share your info, feel free to use this thread.

[MWY]

@Achilles: Info and especially free to use models are appreciated. I think there is too much infantry (especially spearmen) and too little variety in tribal units. However, I find it pretty difficult to get good-looking models for those units.

[Lifthrasir]

I think it would also be useful to determine specific unit types for these factions. For instance (and to be confirmed), Abbasids seem to have relied on heavy infantry while Rûm seems to have been more "specialised" in horse archers and light/medium cavalry.
For the variety of the Muslim factions rosters, such info would be very "valuable"

[j.a.luna]

I think it would also be useful to determine specific unit types for these factions. For instance (and to be confirmed), Abbasids seem to have relied on heavy infantry while Rûm seems to have been more "specialised" in horse archers and light/medium cavalry.
For the variety of the Muslim factions rosters, such info would be very "valuable"

yes you are right Lifth, muslims had different units roster...and also i read some time ago about "persian unit roster"(in current sship selyuk empire) and they still had heavy cavalry, similar to old sassanid cavalry of cathapracts and good archers and spearmen, but now Achilles is working in make a good list of muslims unit roster for sship...he will tell us about them

[Lifthrasir]

I read the same but if I remember correctly, this is more related to the Kwarezmian period which started about 50 years later than our current starting date (but shouldn't be a big deal )

[achilles-91]

As I have your blessing, il proceed to it.
For start, I represent one faction, so that I can see your opinions.
I present you armies of Fatimids and Ayyubids.

Spear infantry:
1) Militia (Available from start)
2) Spear jund (Available from start. Those are arabs, think of them as western factions sergents.)
3) Abid (Available from start, AOR, those are african spearmen, already portrayed good in game)
4) Al harras al sudan (Available from start, AOR, African elite spearmen, known as black guard). This unit should be available until transition into Ayyubid Sultanate. It represent fatimid focus on infantry elites rather then cavalry.

Melee infantry:
1) Sword jund (Available from start. Those are arabs, think of them as western factions sergents)
2) Thaqlah axeman (Two handed axeman from Syria, those should be AOR and available after Ayyubid transition.)
3) Tabardariya (this unit is already portrayed well in game)
4) Tawashi/Thaqlas maceman/swordsmen (Names are yed to be discussed, as every other thing.. This unit is not must, but can fit very well. It would represent heavy infantry with shields, and it would be available after Ayyubid conversion)

Missile infantry:
1) militia
2) abid al shira (african javelin, available from start, AOR )
3) abid archer (african javelin, available from start, AOR)
4) arab archer (as already stated, dont pay too much attention to unit names)
5) crossbowmen
6)mamluk
7)junior mamluks (this unit is OPTIONAL). I would even go with this unit over 'mamluk', as it makes more sense. Full traning mamluks would fight as cavalry, with some exceptions like tabardariya guard..

Melee cavalry:
1) bedouin (AOR)
2)Faris (arab knights)
3)Kurdish heavy cav (available after ayyubid transition)
4)ghulam (available until mamluk transition)
5)mamluk (available after ayyubid transition)
6)khassaki (elite mamluk guard cav
7)Armenian knights (available unti ayyubid transition)
8) Tribal arabs

Missile cav:
1) Berber javelin (AOR)
2) Tawashi (available after ayyubid transition). Those are heavy horse archers, belonging to halqa troops (free born, NOT mamluks)
3) junior ghulam (available unti ayyubid transtion. Filling gasp for little horse archery before ayyubids arive. Very usefull units as it is shared will lot of others factions, as other factions get mamluks latter. If they get mamluks at all..
4) Mamluk junior (available aftery ayyubid transition)
6) Mamluk (available after aryyubdi trantion)
7) Turkoman (available after ayyubid transition)


EDIT:
Lot of those units are shared with some other muslim factions.
Of course there could be added more units like armenian infantry, more berber troops, jaridah cav etc etc, but what is point to have duplicate of trops, just with other name... But that doesnt mean that some of these troops cant be added to fatimids/ayubids.
I've tried to make as least as possible unique units, so that it dont use use too much of unit slots..
Have in mind that roster need to be 'digested'. At first it look preaty much like current sship roster, but it is actualy lot differnt.


EDIT 2:
Some more generic info about other muslim factions...
-You are right about Abassids.. On this period they relied more on heavy troops. They used lot of persian troops, even as guard regiments called abna. Due to lack of native horse archers they should have junior ghulam unit with stats just a little better then tribal horse archer of other factions. They could be also given heavier version of khorasan cavalry serving as caliph bodyguard. Lack of light troops should be made up with bedouins... but problem with them is being completly unreliable troops. Maybe this could be represented with little higher upkeep for that class of unit then unusual.
-Seljuks of rum should have ghazi troops. they very not just 'jihad' troops, but also veterans serving as frontiers. And should have plenty of horse archers.. Tribal, Tribal leaders(begs), etc etc.. Ghulams of seljuks of rum should fight in melee, to make it up for lack of melee ghulam cavalry. They would also have rumi spearmens, and azeri troops. Btw im speaking of seljuks of rum, not ottomans.. but some ottoman units like janiceries and sipahis could be added ofcourse.
-Zengids used syrian troops which had good spearmen and medium lancer cavalry mostly. Of course there are other units which are shared with ayubids, like kurdish lancers which are very heavy, yet not as heavy as ghulams, kurdish swordsmen which are medium armored...anyway, this roster is hardest to be done for me so far. As no much records at all that i found. They mostly used tribal cavalrys, with low number of ghulams. Ghulams of zengid sultans are more heavier and tend to fight in melee. I would even go with adding Agulani unit to zengids as bodyguard. Problem with zengids is that lot of they're units are AOR, turks, arabs, armenians... Even throught most of they units are cavalry, they STILL had cappable infantry even for siege from Allepo.

[j.a.luna]

Mmm good ideas and good roster achilles! I think that sship team need do researches and comment, also if you could,it would be great if you put some images about new muslims units and also some webpages with information
I hope that sship team improve muslims roster!

[Lifthrasir]

Records about Zengid armies are almost inexistant (from what I could find so far). It seems they had a good mix of all Seljuk units plus as you mentioned quite a lot of local Tribal units. But the difference compare to other Muslim factions is that these tribal units were more reliable because they have been "assimilitated" in Zengig society by the grant of political, military and administrative positions. They were not nomadic anymore during the game period for most of them.

[MWY]

Without models for those units, we won't be able to put them into the game. Thats actually the problem for a lot of roster changes. We can't just create new models out of nowhere since we don't have the resources for that. And I think we already took most of the good rusichi/bc units for the current rosters. So again, models and textures for those ideas would be good.


That said:

Jund: I would rather call them Ahdath I think. If I remember correctly, jund is more specific to egypt. So we would get Ahdath Spearmen, Swordsmen and maybe Archers. Which would be pretty similar to BC.

Black Guard: The only black guard I know of is the one used by the moors. Are you sure about that? And again, we would need a good model for that. Might be able to take one from makuria from bc.

Taqlah Axemen: I don't see why you would need/use them when you got tarbardariya.

Tawashi Macemen: Everything I read so far says that ayyubids had heavy cav, but no heavy infantry. I'm not completely against that unit, but I'm not sure if its historical. I also think Al-Halqa (apparently meaning "inner circle") would be more fitting for a unit since tawashi simply means eunuch if im correct. It could be seen as a late version of the fari units (to have some roster development in that part since right now, faris dont change at all).

Kurdish heavy cav: Not sure about that unit. Would be pretty similar to ghulam right?

I think in general for ghulam, there should be an infantry archer unit, infantry melee, mounted archer and mounted lancer. It's mentioned a lot of times how important the training with the bow and it's mastery was.
For fari, I think infantry archer, mounted lancer (for fatimid and abbassid regions) and mounted archer (for the other regions) would be good. Same for the Al-Halqa or Tawashi units.

I also wonder if Jaridah and Abtal are redundant. While Jaridah is supposed to be light cavalry to chase down fleeing units, Abtal don't really have a place right now between fari, ghulam and mamluks.
Still, they are clearly mentioned as troop types.

Ghazi: True, altough you could still distinguish them and call the non-religious guys frontiersmen or something like that as bc did.

[Lifthrasir]

I confirm the existence of the Black Guards during the Fatimid Dynasty. They were Sudanese Spearmen. Saladin crushed their revolt when he took control of Egypt in 1169.
Basically, Fatimids relied upon the balance between Berbers, Turks, Armenians and Nubians to keep power. Each nationality was kept in separate camps and had a residual dislike for each other due to conflicts in Anatolia caused by Turkic migrations into historical Armenian homelands and led to many Armenians moving to Tarus mountains and then into Antioch with the establishment of Crusader Counties after the 1st Crusade.

From an old post of Ichon:
The Fatimids also had a long tradition of using Nubian archers and Beja spearmen from the upper Nile and Makuria who sent annual tribute of slaves to the ruling dynasty in Egypt in return for luxury gifts and open trade and pilgrimage routes for these southern Christian and Jewish kingdoms. Saladin continued to accept the slaves and send gifts when he took power in order to keep peace on his southern borders while the war against the Crusaders and his former overlords the Zengids continued. However Saladin wanted a strong central government in Egypt and made small use of Nubian soldiers, Berber tribes, or the Armenians whom he saw as allied to the Crusaders. Saladin imported Turkomen from Persia and Kurds from his family homelands while increasing the use of feudal land grants and beginning the process of establishing strong city militias which showed their strength under the later Ayyubid dynasty.

[j.a.luna]

About achilles units, when he will come his home he answer you, i think that he has a lot of models units for free use and for muslims roster..
Btw, for african troops,as said MWY, BC mod have a lot of units from makuria faction...i think that majority of muslims units could be borrow from BC mod...

[MWY]

We already are using most of the bc models.

[j.a.luna]

We already are using most of the bc models.

So you, what types of units models need? For african units? For make others news?