TATW Realism+ /Final/ [TATW 3.2]

[Pleiades]

I am sorry, but repeatable battle CTD happened again in new campaign and with reverse order of installation (fresh installed TATW-->G5-->Realism, not TATW-->Realism-->G5). This time, however, I put log file on "trace", so it is very huge file and had to be compressed. I also included save file so you can see circumstances of battle (with or without reinforcement). See attachment.

You can forward all of this to G5 thread if you think it will help.

(EDIT: Battle when you attack with southern nazgul East Osgiliath to break siege.)

[DaVinci]

Well, but with 99,9 % certainty, it can't have to do with the submod changes, as i described formerly: All of Gondor's units are save to function properly. And Mordor's units are the same as in TATW vanilla (there are only a few stat changes done). I'm afraid i can't help there.

Edit: I dl'ed/watched the log, but can't find an indicator, and i have no time for a further detailled bughunt. For now, i can only recommend to play this submod, as it is offered with the install instructions of the 1st post, that is then just without the G5 BAI update 5.7.
Please describe also exactly what happens (is it a battle loading ctd or in-battle?, at which moment the game crashes?).
For a check (just comes to my mind), you can try the mentioned nazgul unit in custom battle, if the unit makes anger, but that would mean they make issues also in TATW vanilla (i don't know what you mean with "southern nazgul", if you mention units, please use the exact in-game name). And please also mention the turn when the crash occurs, so i can get an instant idea where you are in your campaign (campaign-flow ... recruitment).

[Pleiades]

Well, but with 99,9 % certainty, it can't have to do with the submod changes, as i described formerly: All of Gondor's units are save to function properly. And Mordor's units are the same as in TATW vanilla (there are only a few stat changes done). I'm afraid i can't help there.

All right. It is quite possible that some nasty mistake sneaked into 5.7 (while it was ok in 5.6) and that it has nothing to do with your mod. I am still hesitant to forward this discussion to Germanicu5, because at this moment you are waiting for his reply on his thread.

Btw, G5 has great experience with incompatibility of different mod files with his own and usually helps modders very much to discern which battle CTD belongs where. If he has time, he will gladly help you and will help you in details.

Edit: I dl'ed/watched the log, but can't find an indicator, and i have no time for a further detailled bughunt. For now, i can only recommend to play this submod, as it is offered with the install instructions of the 1st post, that is then just without the G5 BAI update 5.7.
Please describe also exactly what happens (is it a battle loading ctd or in-battle?, at which moment the game crashes?).

It is battle loading ctd. Battle cannot even start.

For a check (just comes to my mind), you can try the mentioned nazgul unit in custom battle, if the unit makes anger, but that would mean they make issues also in TATW vanilla

There were no any reproducible CTDs in vanilla TATW with nazguls or any Mordor units/battles during first 100 turns, but with 5.6. I didn't test vanilla TATW with 5.7. You need to pay me in real money to do that, because I am a "little" saturated with vanilla.

(i don't know what you mean with "southern nazgul", if you mention units, please use the exact in-game name).

This you would understand if you looked save file, because there was another nazgul in save file with another possible battle on the north. (I am not criticizing you, and am not insisting that you look into save file. I am just saying as information) So, that "southern nazgul" is now completely irrelevant.

And please also mention the turn when the crash occurs, so i can get an instant idea where you are in your campaign (campaign-flow ... recruitment).

The turn is 13 and same or close turn number was when that CTD happened in first game. The battle is offensive and I am aggressor vs Gondor (in both games). In first game there was 1vs1 stack (Mordor/Gondor). In 2nd game there is 2vs1 stack (Mordor vs Gondor) or 1vs1, CTD is happening anyway (You can choose to replay battle without 2nd help attack stack by choosing "night battle", because 2nd helping stack does not have general) The number of units in all stacks is relatively small so it can't be memory issue. (For memory leak I need to have 5 or 6 stacks on battlefield on huge scale late game and this was large scale at beginning of game)

[DaVinci]

Really, my response is an objective reply, i don't take here anything personal or want to defend the submod or something like that. I'm interested to solve every crash/bug, you can read many posts about that in this thread. I'm thankful for substancuial bugreports, but just atm. with v2.45, my doubt is pretty big that a crash-source is within the submod changes. Else, i aim for a crash-free submod, because i wanna play myself a crash-free TATW submod, i mod TATW for myself, and share it. Atm. i don't consider G5 BAI 5.7, because i don't apply it. That's your turn to investigate. This changes first when i apply that BAI update.


The uploaded log holds no error line, the error lines contained are TATW default error lines, which don't do a harm. So much to the log.

A suggestion: Try all Mordor units in custom battle ... takes not so much time. Then second, Gondor units in custom battle.

If it has to do with units, then they crash also the custom battle mode.

Gondor can recruit units in campaign which aren't available in custom. But, all those units are merc attributed ( ie. edu-code "all" means a wrong ownership can't be the case here, which would crash the battle while loading, but anyway would be written into the log), and have been tested several times by me and diverse players - if those units would have a slightest battle mode issue, i (we) would know that.

Settlements/map didn't get changes by me. Tech-tree isn't relevant for battle-loading. Traits (ie. pre-battle) are 100% bug-free.

Iirc., there is nothing left from the usual relevant files for battle-crashes.

That's the reason why i have biggest doubt that unit changes done by me can be a culprit here for your battle-crash.

The only thing that can still be, that i did Mordor unit stat changes (ie. for Nazguls) which provide a kind of incompatibility in the moment when the battle loads, and also even a smallest dumb edu-typo in one unit can crash the battle while loading, but then, such battles would always crash with such participating units. Therfor i asked for the custom check. If battle-situation relevant Mordor units aren't available in custom, report back, i can make them quickly available for custom, if needed for a further common battle-playtesting, or i just check them short by myself when i get a unit-list which are in campaign battle, but not in custom battle.

[Pleiades]

A suggestion: Try all Mordor units in custom battle ... takes not so much time. Then second, Gondor units in custom battle.

If it has to do with units, then they crash also the custom battle mode.

Gondor can recruit units which aren't available in custom. But, all those units are merc attributed (shared with other factions), and have been tested several times by me and diverse players - if those units would have a slightest battle mode issue, i (we) would know that.

That's the reason why i have biggest doubt that unit changes done by me can be a culprit here.

Settlements/map didn't get changes by me. Tech-tree isn't relevant for battle-loading. Traits (ie. pre-/post-battle) are 100% bug-free.
There is nothing left.

The only thing that can still be, that i did Mordor unit stat changes (ie. for Nazguls) which provide a kind of incompatibility in the moment when the battle loads. Therfor i asked for the custom check. If battle-situation relevant Mordor units aren't available in custom, report back, i can make them quickly available for everybody if needed for common playtesting, or i just check them short by myself.

All right. Give me 10 minutes...

(After 10 minutes): Yes, there is CTD in custom battle Black Numenorians versus one of those Gondor cavalry. There was no CTD in Black Numenorians versus Gondor Infantry (any of them).

EDIT: I can continue 10 or 20 minutes more testing if you want more specifics/details. Just say so...

[DaVinci]

All right. Give me 10 minutes...

(After 10 minutes): Yes, there is CTD in custom battle Black Numenorians versus one of those Gondor cavalry. There was no CTD in Black Numenorians versus Gondor Infantry (any of them).

EDIT: I can continue 10 or 20 minutes more testing if you want more specifics/details. Just say so...

Yes, i want then at first the exact name of the Gondor Cav unit ( although there are not sos many different ones ), which gives you a ctd, and is this a pre-battle crash, same thing as in campaign?
If this unit is the culprit, then we can provide a quickfix.

Edit: I'm too late obviously, i edited my post above much too long. Doesn't matter, i'll check Gondor cavalry units soon.

[Pleiades]

Really, my response is an objective reply, i don't take here anything personal or want to defend the submod or something like that. I'm interested to solve every crash/bug, you can read many posts about that in this thread. I'm thankful for substancuial bugreports, but just atm. with v2.45, my doubt is pretty big that a crash-source is within the submod changes.

I understand and I appreciate your effort. I will leave now this discussion and when I have time I will try 2.45 on clean TATW with old 5.6 AI (I didn't have reinforcement bugs anyway).

I decided to report to G5 CTD only after I try 5.7 on vanilla TATW (but I don't know when I will do that).

Yes, i want then at first the exact name of the Gondor Cav unit ( although there are not sos many different ones ), which gives you a ctd, and is this a pre-battle crash, same thing as in campaign?
If this unit is the culprit, then we can provide a quickfix.

Edit: I'm too late obviously, i edited my post above much too long.

It is Gondor Cavalry Militia. That unit makes all these CTDs. And it has nothing to do with Mordor, for now... I tested it versus Rohan too.

Good night. I am going to sleep now

EDIT: Yes, same pre-battle crash as in campaign.

[DaVinci]

Yes, you are right, the unit has (had) a kind of typo (an oversight) ... thank you a lot for bringing this up :thumbsup
I put you into the credits section of 1st post (i do it always here for everybody who helps to solve bugs).

Attached is the battle-quickfix for v2.45
(Gondor Cavalry Militia typo fix ... i don't think there is more of that kind)

- Download and unzip the attachment.
- Open .../mods/Third_Age_3/data folder and paste the unzipped edu file, overwrite.

It's saved game compatible.

[Pleiades]

Deleted because way much off topic.

[DaVinci]

Pleiades, all your things above must be caused by your installation mixes with G5 BAI update 5.7. If you install TATW Realism+ along 1st post instructions you won't have a messed up campaign content. But i think you discovered that already (your two 'edits').

---

V 2.46 uploaded. The difference to v2.45 is the included battle-crash quickfix from above (which is a fixed edu* file for the Gondor Cavalry Militia unit, typo bug), just to make the installation easier for the ones who have issues with a single data file installation with the quickfix-file from above. That update 2.46 is saved game compatible as the quickfix from above.

*The fixed edu file contains also very few slight changed unit stats (iirc. bit finetuning of cost/upkeep for few certain units, nothing which changes really the course of the balance).

[Pleiades]

Pleiades, all your things above must be caused by your installation mixes with G5 BAI update 5.7. If you install TATW Realism+ along 1st post instructions you won't have a messed up campaign content. But i think you discovered that already (your two 'edits').

Yes, I got that. However, it seems that quickfix in saved file did restart recruitment counter for many types of units starting from next turn. Not big deal. I am just saying.

Now, battles are longer or much longer in your mod than in vanilla TATW, right? I can enjoy them, but my feedback will require much more time, because +90 percents of battles I play manually (which means I am still bellow turn number 25, which is not enough for feedback and mod is at this moment too similar to vanilla in behavior from Mordor point of view, considering that I have Fog_of_war on I don't know what is going on in the world yet.

[Pleiades]

Deleted because way much off topic.

[DaVinci]

Yes, I got that. However, it seems that quickfix in saved file did restart recruitment counter for many types of units starting from next turn. Not big deal. I am just saying.

Now, battles are longer or much longer in your mod than in vanilla TATW, right? I can enjoy them, but my feedback will require much more time, because +90 percents of battles I play manually (which means I am still bellow turn number 25, which is not enough for feedback and mod is at this moment too similar to vanilla in behavior from Mordor point of view, considering that I have Fog_of_war on I don't know what is going on in the world yet.

Your feedback will be interesting as Mordor player, but a bit limited for myself, thing is the mod design (balance) is actually for another player clientel, described in 1st post. Nonetheless, i hope the mod also provides fun for evil side players, and why shouldn't it, it is still TATW, and the one who likes TATW will also like this mod played with evil side factions.

Edit: Your post above #232 (while i wrote mine)

Your mixed installation is by hard fact offtopic.
What you do is betatesting of TATW Realism+ combined with G5 BAI 5.7 update installation. It might confuse players who read those posts, and thus i beg you to avoid reporting about it, when you still use not the 1st post file structure.
G5 BAI update installation changes the scripting files, they mess up saved games of TATW Realism+, and potentially also the whole campaign when started a new campaign, i'm not sure about it, but it's possible, as the campaign script is by large changed by me and thus eventually not compatible with G5 BAI update 5.7 if his update uses TATW 3.2 scripting base, which is different to the submod.

Just play this submod along 1st post instructions and report feedback, everything else is not helpful now for the released v2.45/2.46.
Except the now obvious finding that this submod is not compatible with G5 BAI update 5.7 (i expected something like that, therfore i asked G5 in his thread, if he can provide an extract of the mentioned typos which might solve the BAI reinforcement bug).

The Gondor Cavalry Militia bug finding was very helpful though, if you get more of excatly that kind (verified in custom battles), report them.

As i said somehwere above, this submod comes not with physical map changes, the log though speaks of map related bug(s), they are not related to the submod content, and belong then perhaps into the usual TATW section, or who knows, caused by your installation mix, and thus also not helpful in the usual TATW section.

Info for everybody: TATW Realism+ is not compatible (for now) with G5 BAI 5.7 update.
(Thanks to Pleiades for reporting about the G5 BAI 5.7 usage with TATW Realism+).

[Pleiades]

Understood. I deleted content of my two posts (see above) to reduce possible confusion of other forum members. If you are moderator, you can delete them completely. All is well. Peace.

[DaVinci]

Understood. I deleted content of my two posts (see above) to reduce possible confusion of other forum members. If you are moderator, you can delete them completely. All is well. Peace.

Doesn't matter now, it helped to find out my last statement above (the info G5 BAI 5.7 update usage).

[Heptagenia]

I'm playing as Eriador V 2.4: 5. Okt. 2012. Turn 60 and no problem, everything is exellent. Now i try V 2.46.

[DaVinci]

I'm playing as Eriador V 2.4: 5. Okt. 2012. Turn 60 and no problem, everything is exellent. Now i try V 2.46.

Well, indeed everybody has a lot time for playing 2.46 campaigns. The next update will take quite some time, as 1st, some common changes will be done, and 2nd unit implementation. I don't know when all this is finished for playtesting (it'll be then a v.2.4x beta prior to final v2.5).

Until now, iirc. i have only implemented 2 or 3 new units, this time they are actually new models for TATW Realism+, borrowed from TLK mod (via permission of course).
It needs time for me to decide which unit and what's their role and creating names/descriptions and change the entries/stats - everything shall fit to TATW Realism+, no (senseless) addition to provide only quantity.
Some of those units will fill recruitment gaps ie. in areas where currently no or nearly no units are available due to the changed recruitment structures for certain good side factions in TATW Realism+, the ZoR and AoR system (which will get then in result here and there new recruitment areas/new structure). Others will most likely also replace currently activated recruitable TATW units, ie. which are (only) rebel units in TATW vanilla, ie. to provide more variation per faction and area. And "subfactions" like Dunland and Rhudaur will get the one or other "roster-complementation".

[Pleiades]

Nice mod, with lot of attention to details.

I tried as Eriador on M/VH, Large scale to not tax my PC too much. Don't worry, it was vanilla 3.2 plus Realism. No gremlins, goblins, germanicuses and so on

Until turn 37 was peaceful game for me. Then I lost way too easy Aragorn in battle versus independent rebels. True, battle was sharply uphill when fatique and morale on VH is very punishing. (But it should be so for AI too) But until that moment, battles against rebels were too easy for me, like 45 general horsemen against 700 ambushing rebels in my Heroic victory. I decided to restart the game lowering Battle difficulty to H because of Aragorn. I did notice 3HP for general horsemen versus 2HP for "peasants". That "pushes" me to try to reduce battle difficulty and see what will happen in next campaign. In "real life", everyday trained and well fed knights on horses would be formidable foe during charges against non-trained poor, starving and depressive peasants.

Before I start new game, some feedback after removing fog of war.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

-Gondor is 3 provinces deep inside of Harad-supposed-to-be-provinces and one provicne deep inside Mordor-supposed-to-be-province, but Gondor is on defensive on all fronts (towns and fields) versus Harad and Mordor.

-Rohan visually seems to win slowly over Isengard. But when you look carefully all those units on large map, it seems that balance is still preserved.

-Dwarves seems strong with their stacks, but passive (not offensive).

-Both Elves are passive with low number of units in their rare stacks.

-Mordor is surprisingly helping (yes, helping!) Rhun against Dale with one big stack on Rhun territory near Dale and Rhun stacks and several stacks around Mordor-Dale borders, "just to remind Dale to not try anything with Rhun". While there is some balance between Dale and Rhun, with slightly stronger Rhun, Mordor will soon help Rhun greatly. And then East half of map is lost to the Shadow.

-OoG and OoMM are nice, aggressive just as they need to be. I would not change anything here.

-In fact, considering that the "job" of Eriador player is to take care for OoG and OoMM and that East half of map seems will be surrendered to the Shadow soon, that means that next in line are Gondor and Rohan even if Isengard somehow succumb to Rohan with or without help of Eriador.

So, for now everything is almost perfect if the goal is Evil domination. The only slightly possibly problematic thing is what if Gondor resist this Mordor and Gondor offensive (in my game).

[DaVinci]

Well, thanks for that balance feedback (here with your alternative settings compared to dev settings), always interesting.

Comments:
- Aragorn has with turn 37 long time 16 hp or more (20? can't remember right now, would have to look into edct), if you loose him still, then it must have really bad circumstances, i never lost him since i overworked details (his bg and himself), same with his Dunedain-friend (just forgot the name) and Gandalf.
- That battles with rebels are relative easy is balancing intention.
- Turn 37 says not so much, i'm even bit surprised about the results (relative much action). Tendencies which you describe can change with every other decade ( at least when according factions ie. have not substancially lost their main realm(s) ).
- Your challenge as Eriador is expand/secure, then or parallel, help allies who might need it and where it is possible for you, and finally trying to provide the Arnor requirements (as soon as possible), and as Arnor trying to "turn the tide", up to the final victory conditions (which is quite a big challenge again, if allies vanishing).

[Pleiades]

Well, thanks for that balance feedback (here with your alternative settings compared to dev settings), always interesting.

You are here little sarcastic, aren't you? Be happy that I am honest with my settings. Other players very very often do not even mention their settings. But, you just gave me the idea how to behave for my future feedback posts. Or even worse, you were NOT being sarcastic, in which case I feel obligatory to always report my anti-clockwise settings in my future feedback reports.

Comments:
- Aragorn has with turn 37 long time 16 hp or more (20? can't remember right now, would have to look into edct), if you loose him still, then it must have really bad circumstances, i never lost him since i overworked details (his bg and himself), same with his Dunedain-friend (just forgot the name) and Gandalf.

Or pure bad luck on statistic margin. Aragorn was involved 1vs1 against one heavily wounded unit of "peasant archers" class in melee vs melee without any spearmen in battle. Plus of those 50 horsemen he had by default in his unit, he died as 20th man, which means after his death 30 more men in his general unit left to continue fight. Usually general dies among last men in unit of general. Don't worry, he did not lose all of those 20 men before his death on that "peasant archers" unit, but in previous engagements (also with peasant archers and such). Aragorn unit could not charge though, cause it was in narrow town square on the hill. Plus it was "tired" or "very tired". As for the enemy peasant archer, I don't know if it was "fresh" or "tired" and such. It should be very exhausted though, because it was the end of losing and long battle for them.

- That battles with rebels are relative easy is balancing intention.
- Turn 37 says not so much, i'm even bit surprised about the results (relative much action). Tendencies which you describe can change with every other decade ( at least when according factions ie. have not substancially lost their main realm(s) ).

Possibly, but once again, at that turn 37 all evil factions were on the offensive (with OoG, OoMM and somewhat Rhun's decent number of full or half-full stacks in and out of their towns), except Harad on defensive. (Isengard too was in offensive, although visually and statistically (faction ranking) it seemed weaker than Rohan at that moment) But that is my preference and reason why I choose your mod (lore-realism and united good vs evil theme).

- Your challenge as Eriador is expand/secure, then or parallel, help allies who might need it and where it is possible for you, and finally trying to provide the Arnor requirements (as soon as possible), and as Arnor trying to "turn the tide", up to the final victory conditions (which is quite a big challenge again, if allies vanishing).

...And to keep Aragorn in the inn "Prancing Pony", at least until Arnor is reforged!

EDIT: I am just starting new Eriador campaign with 5.7. See G5 post