BEST Realistic Naval Mod for NTW - GRAND FLEET v2.01 *** 01/06/10 *** NEW

[Sharp]

Hi there, I'm wondering why youve given ships 60% of full speed when on a full run (down wind) and 100% on a reach??? now i know TW hasn't got studdingsails and skysails and whatever, but what youve done is simply false, the fastest point of sailing is still downwind - or up to three points off, as is the point of having square rigged sails. I'd suggest editing the placement of wind zones to add greater lean on the ships when working up wind, or on a full reach (sideways to the wind).
SPQR

you want to say that I'm wrong? I have a question for you:
1) zero degrees - the maximum speed of the ship in real life? Or 55-60?
2) what degree - dead zone, which can not sail a ship?
3) Give me the wind rose...
THX

[♠ Thomas Cochrane ♠]

I'm sorry i don't understand. At all.
zero degrees? wind rose? It's not a matter of compass bearing (i assume you refer to the Rose meaning north).

I think the confusion lies in the difference between the yachts of today and the ships of the Age of Sail. I sail todays triangular sail boats okay. Because the sails run the length of the craft the wind "keels" them over, but brings them further from the wind, and thus faster. A ship (like those in the game) can't be powered chiefly on staysails (triangular sails) otherwise the lean would let water in the gun ports and sink even the lightest of ships.
My point is, that, the fastest point of sailing of a yacht of today is INDEED like you said NOT straight down wind, as less sail is being spread, it needs a spinnaker. This is todays equivalent of a sqaresail or "course" on a ship.
On a ship though, you can see the studdingsails in the diagram are put in place only when the ship is travelling very close to the wind gauge, and therefore it travels fastest when the wind is right abaft the stern (behind it) or just a point or two away (up to 20 degrees i think)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hope this answers your queries!!
SPQR

[♠ Thomas Cochrane ♠]

Thought i'd throw in this beautiful pic of the USS Constitution - which i'll see before i die
Here you can see both port and starboard fore studdingsails out and behind them the main stuns'ls. From this we can surmise that the wind is directly abaft and they - with a full spread of canvas - are travelling at full speed.

[♠ Thomas Cochrane ♠]

In regards to the colouration, its quite easy to locate and example on the internet, though i get most of my undertanding for the Patrick O'Brien novels
here you can see that it was indeed so rare to see the black and white on French vessels in this time that at the battle of Trafalgar none of the ships bore the black and white stripe. Naturally this was because many of Villeneuve's squadron were once British or Dutch ships, and many were repainted in the black on gold pattern.
note that some ships have less stripes than they have gun decks. this was to confuse the enemy into thinking they were a much smaller vessel untill they got close enought to engage.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And here are some spanish examples

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Santissima Trinidada

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Left two

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Fore ship (looks like the Trinidada again)

[♠ Thomas Cochrane ♠]

Christ why am i writing when i should be studying?! Or sleeping for that matter
Someone +rep me for caring more about ships than Uni

SPQR out.

[Sharp]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'm sorry i don't understand. At all.
zero degrees? wind rose? It's not a matter of compass bearing (i assume you refer to the Rose meaning north).

I think the confusion lies in the difference between the yachts of today and the ships of the Age of Sail. I sail todays triangular sail boats okay. Because the sails run the length of the craft the wind "keels" them over, but brings them further from the wind, and thus faster. A ship (like those in the game) can't be powered chiefly on staysails (triangular sails) otherwise the lean would let water in the gun ports and sink even the lightest of ships.
My point is, that, the fastest point of sailing of a yacht of today is INDEED like you said NOT straight down wind, as less sail is being spread, it needs a spinnaker. This is todays equivalent of a sqaresail or "course" on a ship.
On a ship though, you can see the studdingsails in the diagram are put in place only when the ship is travelling very close to the wind gauge, and therefore it travels fastest when the wind is right abaft the stern (behind it) or just a point or two away (up to 20 degrees i think)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hope this answers your queries!!
SPQR

Give me the wind rose, for battleships 18 century...

[Bethencourt]

Hi!

Here some sources that support the textures given by this mod to the Spanish ships.

http://usuarios.arsystel.com/naviost/nst/datos.htm Where it says

Recordamos que a partir de 1776 se estableció en el Título XXIII de la Ordenanza de Arsenales el siguiente pintado de los buques: ( Remember from 1776 on it was stablished in Arsenal Law the following painting for ships:
Casco exterior por encima de la flotación y arboladura: Amarillo y negro. (Hull and masts yellow and black)

Cámaras: porcelana y azul. (Captain rooms white and blue)
Entrepuentes y castillo: tierra roja (Upper deck and castles red soil)

See also here http://www.todoababor.es/vida_barcos/nav.htm

And further than that sources I have not seen any painting of those times with Spanish ships in red.

[Maturin y Domanova]

I think the confusion lies in the difference between the yachts of today and the ships of the Age of Sail. I sail todays triangular sail boats okay. Because the sails run the length of the craft the wind "keels" them over, but brings them further from the wind, and thus faster. A ship (like those in the game) can't be powered chiefly on staysails (triangular sails) otherwise the lean would let water in the gun ports and sink even the lightest of ships.
My point is, that, the fastest point of sailing of a yacht of today is INDEED like you said NOT straight down wind, as less sail is being spread, it needs a spinnaker. This is todays equivalent of a sqaresail or "course" on a ship.
On a ship though, you can see the studdingsails in the diagram are put in place only when the ship is travelling very close to the wind gauge, and therefore it travels fastest when the wind is right abaft the stern (behind it) or just a point or two away (up to 20 degrees i think)

Just like a modern yacht, square-riggers have sub-par performance when sailing directly downwind. Knocking them down to 60% speed is probably a little harsh, but ships would still sail on a broad reach whenever possible. Having the wind on your quarter--somewhere in-between your beam and square on your stern--is best. In that sweet spot the wind can fill the entirety every sail perpendicularly, since the yards swing.

Otherwise the sails get in a line and blanket each other. Studdingsails are designed for light winds since they will blow away in anything stronger than a breeze. That picture of Constitution is highly unusual. Almost the only time you see studdingsails set on both sides is when the artist is taking aesthetic liberties, and that's because ships would only sail directly downwind if they had to. In the dead calm that is depicted in that painting, the ships were gaining most of their propulsion from the oars in the boats, so they had to be heading straight downwind. In case of a sudden puff, it was best to set all the studdingsails so as to take maximum advantage, whatever direction it came from.

And large warships couldn't sail with their staysails alone because the ones they carried were too small to carry their weight. So they swung their square yards and used bowlines to make them as close to fore and aft as possible. A handy frigate would lie almost as close (but a few crucial degrees short) to the wind as a schooner and heel over almost as far (close those gunports!), so it's not right to say that using staysails could capsize them.

Sharp:
Great mod! Some comments and ideas:

I think it would be more accurate to make ships travel at 80% speed (instead of 60%) when traveling directly downwind.
Do ships fire explosive bombs automatically, or does this need to be researched? Did Napoleon:TW add bombs or did you add bombs?
I think bow and stern chaser guns should do damage like chainshot, but shoot as far and as accurately as round shot, since they were usually aimed at masts by expert gunners.
The limits on the number of 1st Rates you can build are very unrealistic. When Napoleon returned from Elba, he began to build dozens of 1st Rates all at once.
The damage decals look amazing!

[Sharp]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Sharp:
Great mod! Some comments and ideas:

I think it would be more accurate to make ships travel at 80% speed (instead of 60%) when traveling directly downwind.
Do ships fire explosive bombs automatically, or does this need to be researched? Did Napoleon:TW add bombs or did you add bombs?
I think bow and stern chaser guns should do damage like chainshot, but shoot as far and as accurately as round shot, since they were usually aimed at masts by expert gunners.
The limits on the number of 1st Rates you can build are very unrealistic. When Napoleon returned from Elba, he began to build dozens of 1st Rates all at once.
The damage decals look amazing!

Thx, Maturin y Domanova, for your ideas!
___________________________________________
*speed
// good
___________________________________________
*Do ships fire explosive bombs automatically, or does this need to be researched?
// they fired only large-caliber guns, of lower deck. Instead grapeshot. (Grapeshot, as used only for the upper decks). I add bombs (explosive round shot, of short-range)
___________________________________________
*I think bow and stern chaser guns should do damage like chainshot, but shoot as far and as accurately as round shot, since they were usually aimed at masts by expert gunners.
// this has been done in this mod. Range of bow and stern guns is: round shot - 600, chainshot - 400. & + of damage
___________________________________________
*limits on the number
// good idea.

[georider]

Good Work, Thanks for such add on +rep

[Sharp]

Good Work, Thanks for such add on +rep

Thx, friend!

See, damage panel of ships ("NEW vanilla damage panel")
based on this picture will be made for other factions...

is only the beginning

[♠ Thomas Cochrane ♠]

@ Maturin y Domanova
Like the name

@ Maturin y Domanova & Sharp
I never meant that staysails would capsize a ship, only that if they were rigged to the same comparative proportions to those of today they would, and couldn't sail on just them.

In relation to the fastest point of sailing, I keep seeing the diagram of you windchart, and how i would have the fastest point of sailing CLOSER to downwind. I know this is a bit contradictory to what i previously said, but i was just adament that we wouldn't see 60% speed travelling downwind.
SPQR.

[♠ Thomas Cochrane ♠]

also, does anyone know how to change the marine (or any crew for that matter) models? This way we can get great looking models onto sharps great ships
I know how to, but how do i create a separate pack file to save specific changes?

Its unit_naval_stats_crew_factions_specific -I think

[JaM]

just a friendly advice - main gun deck guns were not able to fire explosive projectiles in Napoleonic era! those guns were too long for any such projectile, bomb required burning match, it was just not possible to predict the length of match so it would not explode inside the barrel... plus reliability of bombs was extremely low - in land warfare only 1/10 of bombs worked properly... Only guns capable firing them on sea were French and Spanish howitzers. those were ment to be something like carronade equalizer, but were found to be extremely unreliable (French) so they were replaced by carronades (in French Navy it started in 1805,but no ship was rearmed till Trafalgar)...

explosive shells started to appear as a main gun ammunition when percussion system became wide spread.. first naval engagement where explosive shells appeared was a Battle of Sinop in 1853, when Russian Admiral Nachimov thanks to exploding shells utterly destroyed Ottoman fleet still using roundshots...

so having maindeck guns firing explosive grenades even at short range is definitely unrealistic...


if you want realistic approach, just give maindeck guns ability to fire double-shots instead - just close normal roundshot and give it 2 projectiles... Using doubleshots was standard tactics for close engagements - with reduced powder charge both rounds had limited accuracy, but it didnt really matter at short range where both rounds could penetrate one side and then ricochet inside the hull causing huge damage to crew inside - if normal amount of powder with single round-shot would be used, it would penetrate both sides easilly doing relativly limited damage only in flight trajectory...

if you want to see how it works, check NER 0.75

[Sharp]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

just a friendly advice - main gun deck guns were not able to fire explosive projectiles in Napoleonic era! those guns were too long for any such projectile, bomb required burning match, it was just not possible to predict the length of match so it would not explode inside the barrel... plus reliability of bombs was extremely low - in land warfare only 1/10 of bombs worked properly... Only guns capable firing them on sea were French and Spanish howitzers. those were ment to be something like carronade equalizer, but were found to be extremely unreliable (French) so they were replaced by carronades (in French Navy it started in 1805,but no ship was rearmed till Trafalgar)...

explosive shells started to appear as a main gun ammunition when percussion system became wide spread.. first naval engagement where explosive shells appeared was a Battle of Sinop in 1853, when Russian Admiral Nachimov thanks to exploding shells utterly destroyed Ottoman fleet still using roundshots...

so having maindeck guns firing explosive grenades even at short range is definitely unrealistic...

Thx, JaM!
I add changes to new version!

best regards

[Moggy Cattermole]

I notice in the screens that the flags of the Royal Navy (british) lack the bars that were added after the act of union. Also have you considered asking General Cornwallis if you could incorporate his Royal Marines into this mod? Many thanks for sharing this, though!

[♠ Thomas Cochrane ♠]

I would add Bar07's Marines as I see them to be more accurate at this stage

[Maturin y Domanova]

Would it be possible to add a setting to the game with which your ships would shoot roundshot at the enemy's rigging?

Because while it is realistic that chain shot is short-ranged, it make it impossible to attempt to dismast the enemy from long range. This was a highly common real-world tactic, and roundshot would be used.

If adding this special ability to roundshot is impossible, then it may be best to make chainshot and roundshot have equal range, but make the accuracy or damage of chainshot very bad except at short range. This would represent ships shooting less-effective roundshot at long-range. Then you could dismast from far away but would have to approach the enemy in order to do real damage.

[JaM]

yup - chain-shot was extremly inaccurate type of ammunition - it had the largest dispersion of all - if you look at historical sources, you will find that double-shot was normally fired only at short distances because of low accuracy two round-shot would have if fired at the same time. Chain-shot shared that, but their inaccuracy was more extended by the fact that both parts were connected with chain, so after both shots left the bore, they expanded away from each other until they reached maximum length of chain. at that moment both shots changed the direction due to different vector of force which resulted in added inaccuracy - historical books mentions that chain-shots and bar-shots should be not used at greater distance than 200 yards - for example grape-shots max effective range was up to 400 yards. Another important fact was that during the process of projectiles being shot out of barrel - chain links tend to get stuck between rounds and gun bore, which caused increased weariness of the gun bore - this was reduced by introduction of bar-shot which eliminated that possibility, but was less effective against sails and riggings due to shorter distance between projectiles.

from technical perspective, its not that big issue to just convert main guns to fire solid round-shots at sails instead of chain-shots.. (check how it is done in NER, as it has this already implemented )

[Maturin y Domanova]

from technical perspective, its not that big issue to just convert main guns to fire solid round-shots at sails instead of chain-shots.. (check how it is done in NER, as it has this already implemented )

But it would have to be toggleable. Is it possible to mod the UI?