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Thread: process for the removal of staff

  1. #1

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    may i enquire as to what the process for removal of staff from any position of power is, and the reasons for doing so?

    and shgould there not be enshrined a method in the Syntagma for civitates and staff to call the abilities of other staff members into quaestion, and thereby call a vote of no confidence in that staff member, and have him demoted to senatorii, or cast out from the uppoer orders entirely as the case may be.

    i note that over the months, the staff has, quite obviously fluctuated considerably, but in those cases where staff have not resigned, the methods used have varied.

    i myself was subject to a full vote of the curia on my continuing in office. the facts of that issue are now irrelevant. the question is though, considering staff hostility to me at that time, had the civitates voted to keep me in office, would the staff have upheld that, bearing in mind the vote was not an ostrakon, but merely a question of should i remain a trium.

    furthermore the question then arises as to what other methods have been used. certain staff members, no doubt through no fault of their own fell inactive. they were quietly retired, i would hope by a vote of the staff, and replaced in new elections, but should they not have had the same chance as i did to state their case (or not) and be fully voted on by the civitates.

    more importantly to my mind, the old and original version of the syntagma contained sections relating to the removal of staff. 2while these are still present, they have been reworded to hide the process of staff removal.

    the fact is, we have no clear lines for the senior and respected members of the site to call into question the ability or competance of a staff member, and in the cases where a civitate does attempt to do this, there is no obligation upon the staff to investigate, to post the results of that investihgation, or to take any action regardless of the weight or number of accusations laid upon a staff member by the civitates.

    futhermore, a minor related issue, i have but recently noticed whilst reading the syntagma, is that, of course, our staff members are drawn from the ranks of civitates.
    but does this mean that is an ordinary ostrakon is initiated against the staff member as a civitate, and he is ostrakoned, that he should lose his staff member position as well, being as he no longer qualifies...

    case in point, if there are concerns over the election of an MP, and he is asked to step down as MP for that constituency, he cannot continue to hold any ministerial position in the government.

    one final issue, and moving away from the topic title.. but
    what is the current difference between Quastors and Praetors. the Praetors used to be the global moderators, and quastors had some moderator ability in some forums, or were staff members for other reasons with no moderator ability
    however, i now note that there is no real difference in the duties or powers of wilpuri, a praetor, and global moderator, and crandar, a quaestor, but also a global moderator.

    these are just some issues that i feel need clarifying
    to summarise:
    what is the procedure for the removal of staff?

    why is there not/should there be a process whereby civitates can for a vote of no confidence in a staff member (and what restrictions should there be on this (i.e should only follow an inquiery))

    should there be an open and transparent complaints procedure?

    if a staff member is sucessfully ostrakoned, does he lose his staff position as well as his civitate position?

    what is the real difference between quastors and praetors?

  2. #2
    Sulla's Avatar Sulla
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    This is an enquiry not a proposition. Moved to the Curia.

    Under the Patronage of the noble Senatorii Wild Bill Kelso
    Brother Of Necrobrit, Scrappy Jenks, eldaran and Oldgamer
    Patron of the Senatorii cunobelin & the CivitateLegio XX Valeria Victrix

  3. #3

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    depending on responces, belive me a proposition will emerge.

    but sulla, you are pro-curator, you should be able to answer this for me
    to quote from your job description
    advising of Civitates and staff with questions relating to TWC law, and assisting Civitates and staff to draft new amendments if requested.

  4. #4
    Sulla's Avatar Sulla
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    You are correct.

    what is the procedure for the removal of staff?
    The Syntagma states,
    - The Triumvirate can veto any legislation if two of the three Triumvirate members oppose it. The Praetors can also veto legislation only by unanimous consent of the Praetors. If a Praetor/Triumvirate member happens to be absent, until a three day period has passed after the proposition has been introduced, his vote is considered null. There will be two exceptions:
    - Exception 1 - If the proposition involves a Triumvirate member (ie. demotion, election, suspension), only the Praetors can introduce that proposition, and only if in majority.
    - Exception 2 - If the proposition involves a Praetor or Quaestor member (ie. demotion, election, suspension), only the Triumvirate can introduce that proposition, and only if in majority.
    ...
    - When voting on Praetors and Quaestors issues, the whole Curia must vote, and the total number of Curators will equal the votes needed.
    Thus the Syntagma does set rules for staff removal.

    why is there not/should there be a process whereby civitates can for a vote of no confidence in a staff member (and what restrictions should there be on this (i.e should only follow an inquiery))
    It's not in the Syntagma. The Civitates have never demanded that specific constitutional change.

    should there be an open and transparent complaints procedure?
    Perhaps...

    what is the real difference between quastors and praetors?
    Triumvirate and Praetor members are part of the Hexagon (see Sibs sig) and Quaestors are not. The Hexagon forms all policy at TWC while the Quaestors implement policy. Quaestors do have input in policy but not to the degree that the Praetors do. All staff members are expected to moderate the forums too.

    Under the Patronage of the noble Senatorii Wild Bill Kelso
    Brother Of Necrobrit, Scrappy Jenks, eldaran and Oldgamer
    Patron of the Senatorii cunobelin & the CivitateLegio XX Valeria Victrix

  5. #5

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    not true, 2 of the trium are specifically stated to not moderate the forums. you have the webmaster, the curator and the forum administrator.

    there is nothing in the curia to say a staff member (curator) cannot be ostracised from his rank of a civitate. all staff members are civitates, drawn from the civitates to represent the civitates and return to become civitates when their term has finished (albeit senatorii)
    a staff member is a curator. a curator is a civitate.
    Civitates Class - Curators / Senatorii / Patrician / Civitate
    Civitates - Standard Civitates without the priviledge to Patronise new Civitates.
    Patricians - Civitates in good standing who have been civitates two months or longer without receiving an official warning.
    Senatorii - Some of the original founding TWC members and subsequent ex-staff members.
    Curators - Existing TWC staff members. Triumvirs, Praetors and Quaestors

    as for the policy idea... the new sig policy appewars to have been drawn up by crandar...
    nor is that in the syntagma

    Praetors act as a sort of governing body of the Forum afforded the power now held by a Full Moderator.
    Quaestors are officials in the Forum who may control certain facets of function in the forum. The may control some, but not all Fora, and are considered staff members. (emphasis my own)

    you should note the current state of affairs is in direct contravention of that statement from the syntagma, especially the emboldened bit.


    as to the other issues, maybe the civitates should demand the right of no confidence, and maybe the staff should set out to make clear what is being done about various complaints leveled against one staff member in particular

  6. #6
    Necrobrit's Avatar Urbanis Legio
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    as to the other issues, maybe the civitates should demand the right of no confidence, and maybe the staff should set out to make clear what is being done about various complaints leveled against one staff member in particular
    Perhaps we should... though not for the reason that I think your implying... unless I'm missing the target of your implications.

    The Imperial House Of The Wolf
    Son of WBK/Anagennese.
    The second generation of The Imperial Household: Sulla, Scrappy Jenks, eldaran, Oldgamer, Ecthelion, Kagemusha, Muizer, Battle Knight and Asterix
    Father of Zuwxiv, Borsook, PyrrhusIV, and Aristocrat formerly bestowing patronage upon Omnipotent-Q

  7. #7

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    In the syntagma is says

    "The Triumvirs have the power to appoint, as the need arises, certain Civitate members in good standing with limited moderating powers. These specially granted moderating powers are subordinate to the powers granted to all official TWC staff, including an Urbanis Legio with responsibility in that forum area, who can arbitrarily overrule their decisions. The Triumvirs also have the power to remove these special powers at any time for any reason."

    so triums can remove Urbanis, by 2/3 vote.

    the staff member vote needs to be uninamous. if a uninamous vote isnt reached ( ie only 2/3), it goes to the hexagon (trium + praetors).

    This is how we do it and have done it in the past. its not in the syntagma, its hexagon protocol. it ensures fluidity and agility of governemnt, and has wordked PERFECTLY for years.It certainly isnt going to be changed, by the way. The trium will veto it if it comes up.
    He that will not reason is a bigot, He that cannot reason is a fool, He that dares not reason is a slave.

  8. #8

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    i'm not entirely sure how that post was relevant...

    the rules regarding the urbanis legio are perfectly clear, i never questioned them. my post was regarding the current role of quastors and their supposed role laid out in the syntagma, and the powers of civitates to question the competance of staff members in general

  9. #9
    Simetrical's Avatar Former Chief Technician
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    Originally posted by borispavlovgrozny
    In the syntagma is says

    "The Triumvirs have the power to appoint, as the need arises, certain Civitate members in good standing with limited moderating powers. These specially granted moderating powers are subordinate to the powers granted to all official TWC staff, including an Urbanis Legio with responsibility in that forum area, who can arbitrarily overrule their decisions. The Triumvirs also have the power to remove these special powers at any time for any reason."

    so triums can remove Urbanis, by 2/3 vote.
    That paragraph deals with the assignment of moderation powers to non-staff members. It specifically says that such moderators can be overruled by staff members such as Urbanis Legio. It means that the Triumvirs can remove local moderation powers from, say, me (not a staff member, but a Civitate in good standing who has been given local moderation powers in the RTR boards) acting in majority. Not Urbanis Legio.

    -Simetrical
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  10. #10

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    but how does that relate to the removal of quasotrsa/praetors, votes of no confidence, ostrakon of staff members etc, wghich is what i'm asking about and not getting answers too

  11. #11

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    The answer is that no formal system exists in the curia.
    Former Patron of: Sbsdude, Bgreman, Windblade, Scipii, Genghis Khan, Count of Montesano, Roman American, Praetorian Sejanus

    My time here has ended. The time of the syntigmata has ended. Such is how these things are, and I accept it. In the several years I was a member of this forum, I fought for what I considered to be the most beneficial actions to enrich the forum. I regret none of my actions, and retain my personal honor and integrity.
    Fallen Triumvir

  12. #12

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    perhaps then it such a procedure should be formalised into the curia, in case,m and in the unfortunate circumstances its ever needed, as a last resort...

  13. #13
    Necrobrit's Avatar Urbanis Legio
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    Originally posted by borispavlovgrozny@Apr 28 2005, 08:08 PM
    In the syntagma is says

    "The Triumvirs have the power to appoint, as the need arises, certain Civitate members in good standing with limited moderating powers. These specially granted moderating powers are subordinate to the powers granted to all official TWC staff, including an Urbanis Legio with responsibility in that forum area, who can arbitrarily overrule their decisions. The Triumvirs also have the power to remove these special powers at any time for any reason."

    so triums can remove Urbanis, by 2/3 vote.

    the staff member vote needs to be uninamous. if a uninamous vote isnt reached ( ie only 2/3), it goes to the hexagon (trium + praetors).

    This is how we do it and have done it in the past. its not in the syntagma, its hexagon protocol. it ensures fluidity and agility of governemnt, and has wordked PERFECTLY for years.It certainly isnt going to be changed, by the way. The trium will veto it if it comes up.
    Was that a threat? *tongue*

    The Imperial House Of The Wolf
    Son of WBK/Anagennese.
    The second generation of The Imperial Household: Sulla, Scrappy Jenks, eldaran, Oldgamer, Ecthelion, Kagemusha, Muizer, Battle Knight and Asterix
    Father of Zuwxiv, Borsook, PyrrhusIV, and Aristocrat formerly bestowing patronage upon Omnipotent-Q

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