How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

[Athenogoras]

I am not an expert on the subject(and I think there are few who are actually) but my gutfeeling says the same as DV.

if Atheno is testing the units in custom battle mode, he eventually hasn't recognized that Principes must get exp points

pfft you coders and your dirty tricks, cursed you are

However, it's now Hister's thing to make it right.

I would at least be good to know if the current balance is intended.

I also wonder if it is true that a roman army could field less soldiers(in a full stack) than the greek hoplite armies(with 120 soldier on large). On the other hand I guess(all else equal) that the roman cities will grow faster and be more strong economically enabling them to field more armies.

[DaVinci]

pfft you coders and your dirty tricks, cursed you are

You are a coder as well. And to balance via edb is necessary. Especially that certain units get exp points from start reflects even historical accuracy.

I also wonder if it is true that a roman army could field less soldiers(in a full stack) than the greek hoplite armies(with 120 soldier on large). On the other hand I guess(all else equal) that the roman cities will grow faster and be more strong economically enabling them to field more armies.

Reasonable point, actually.
I learned in the past, that the southern italian-greek realms were so to say on the decline (regarding the Hoplite-warfare), at least latest as the Romans subjugated these regions (the only exception is of course Syracuse).
Ie. Tarent wasn't able to field enough strong units, so they called Pyrus for help. But well, i have no great knowledge how Magna Graecia was shaped in this relation (when PI starts), before these later events.
And after all, it took the Romans much much more time to subjugate the celtic realms of north-Italy than the southern italian regions.

It is also a basic mod-design decision, if those historical background things shall be considered or not.

Edit:
Btw., i remember now the MRR guide which i made with Bucellarii in 2005. It can be downloaded here, TWC server, zipped pdf: MRR Guide
This guide owns as well a reliable historical correct timeline of the roman history (their campaigns/expansions), from on 299 BC to 133 BC.

[Hister]

Hi guys I'm back from short Croatian vacation. Sea was great, I got sun burnt but I enjoyed as hell nevertheless I see you guys have been active on our mod - that's a nice thing to see!

First I thank Athenogoras for taking his precious time and helping me with PI. I'll apply your suggested stats and check how the autocalc battles cope with the changes and make proper adjustments.

As Roman human player, how will it be possible to win vs. the Greek southern Italy etc., if these factions have a lot superior Hoplites and Phalanx units available?

As historically you need to flank such units and when their cohesion is gone they are gone to.

Or in other words (vice versa), will the Greek human player (or other factions with Hoplites/Phalanx) have an easy game vs. the Romans in AI hands?

Player choosing Italiotae has a hard time playing them versus other factions.

Imo., basicly viewed, as Roman Legionaries (Hastati and Principes) have only 40 men to 60 Hoplites/Phalanx men, there should be a more sensible balance between these units.

I also wonder if it is true that a roman army could field less soldiers(in a full stack) than the greek hoplite armies(with 120 soldier on large). On the other hand I guess(all else equal) that the roman cities will grow faster and be more strong economically enabling them to field more armies.

Such numbers are here due to the effect we want to have on the battlefield. Hoplite units need to have a full 60 number - it is all made so because Aper wanted them to not start flanking on other units but do a straight attack. Other more professional units (non -hoplitic/spear wielding ones) are lesser in numbers to simulate in a way their rareness. All in all you can't make a perfect simulation with this game - there are things you need to swallow in order to achieve proper gameplay. I for one don't see why 40 men strong Roman unit would present a problem versus 60 men strong hoplites - we can be nitpicky yes but my time modding PI is limited. In addition I'm not feeling like changing the EDU drastically any more. Other things simply have priority in my life.

Well, my points remain for an ongoing balance-discussion imo., means eventually, campaign outcome-reports are needed, where the factions in question are played deep into the campaign.

If someone is going to help me with that prior to release of next patch that would be awesome.

I at least must say, find it odd, if Principes loose always vs. a Phalanx or Hoplite unit, not sure actually, but sounds quite ahistorical to me.

Well it's very hard to achieve a proper balance. Player can win over phalanx but needs to use flanking. Roman AI eventually wins over Italioate so I don't see this as a big problem anyways.

Hi Aper, a healthy decision to keep yourself away from RTW.

Yes but to a big loss for Total War community Anyways RL is way more important then modding if you don't plan to get yourself employed in the gaming industry that is.

One thought comes now, if Atheno is testing the units in custom battle mode, he eventually hasn't recognized that Principes must get exp points (via edb at least, it is a must, that they have 1 exp point as minimum, Triarii 2 exp as minimum).

DV has got a big point here! Proper balancing is indeed very time consuming thing.

I would at least be good to know if the current balance is intended.

I would rather let Aper answer on this one

It is also a basic mod-design decision, if those historical background things shall be considered or not.

I would say the more historicity the better!

Nice MRR guide DV!

[DaVinci]

Wow, one cannot say, that you wouldn't take enough time to reply to any kind of comments.

And btw., as i read again the MRR Guide (now after roughly 3,5 years), i was amazed of the work, that we (Bucellarii and me) put into this document, and i remembered, how well the MRR mod actually was.

[Hister]

Wow, one cannot say, that you wouldn't take enough time to reply to any kind of comments.

I try to be polite and not let anyone's questions unanswered

Yes amazing about MRR - reading that document I got a scary feeling how much more would needed to be done on PI...

[DaVinci]

You can take it as following: You provide soon the base for a proper BI-PI.

Other guys, eventually, can work further on that project.
At least PI would be worth the efforts very much. If that wouldn't be the case, i personally wouldn't have ever taken that much time into it, to improve some basic things for the balance.
Imo., serious historical shaped mods need nearly infinite time to invest ... can be a never ending job.

[Hister]

You can take it as following: You provide soon the base for a proper BI-PI.

Other guys, eventually, can work further on that project.

It's a deal although "soon" might turn out to be not so soon due to RL limitations but I'll promise to do my best for the PI's sake!

[Aper]

IIRC I balanced Principes to be defeated by Hoplitai only because of the greater number of the greeks: if you check the casualties, Principes should kill much more men before fleeing. This should be furtherly balanced making Hoplitai more expensive and slower to recruit than their Roman enemies: so we have the phalanx that is stronger on the battlefield in 1 vs 1 situations, but Principes more cost-effective and numerous. Consider that giving Hoplitai 2 turns rec time it will be VERY unlikely to see full stacks of them.

About pike phalanx, it's supposed to be nigh-invincible from the front and weak on flanks and rear; but considering that PI phalangitai are equipped like Epilektoi (elites), I made them real badass-all round strong unit, balanced making them very expensive and time consuming to train.
(they have frighten_foot for a good reason! I would never fight against those guys... )

[Athenogoras]

Aper: Good to know your thoughts on the balance.

I would never fight against those guys...

Dont worry Aper. You and me would be considered psiloi anyway. We would be throwing spears, rock and cowmanure on their fancy armour and then we would go home drinking latte in the piazza.

[Aper]

Dont worry Aper. You and me would be considered psiloi anyway. We would be throwing spears, rock and cowmanure on their fancy armour and then we would go home drinking latte in the piazza.

I assure you I'm quite scary with a 2H sword in hand... and I'm learning sword & buckler too, so that I'll be the ultimate Renaissance-era pikemen-slaughterer!!! AHAHAAHAHAHAHAH


Ehm, back on topic now...

[Athenogoras]

OK I believe you.

Back on topic:
The unit radius: The low number on hoplites makes them fight fight tight and that is ok by me. But should principes, ensiferi etc fight equally tight.(hoplites 0.23, principes 0.24). I dont think it looks good. For principes 0.3 is enough I think.

The battlespeed: High attack, low defence and little delay makes for pretty fast battles. Because of the speed of battles hoplites doesnt seem to lose formation. If we slow the battles we might see some more broken lines and enveloped flanks.
This could be done be increasing the delay by 15-20 points for all or increasing defenceskill.

Edit: I see ensiferi-units has no changed radius.

[Aper]

OK I believe you.

Back on topic:
The unit radius: The low number on hoplites makes them fight fight tight and that is ok by me. But should principes, ensiferi etc fight equally tight.(hoplites 0.23, principes 0.24). I dont think it looks good. For principes 0.3 is enough I think.

The battlespeed: High attack, low defence and little delay makes for pretty fast battles. Because of the speed of battles hoplites doesnt seem to lose formation. If we slow the battles we might see some more broken lines and enveloped flanks.
This could be done be increasing the delay by 15-20 points for all or increasing defenceskill.

Edit: I see ensiferi-units has no changed radius.

The low radius of Romani units have no other reason that to give them more punch on the battlemap - as the increased sec HPs on the strategic map. Change the values as you like.
If you want slower battles, I think should be better to mod delay instead of defence - balancing the protections was truly a pain in the ass (I'm good-mannered as an english lord, we say in italy )

[Hister]

The unit radius: The low number on hoplites makes them fight fight tight and that is ok by me. But should principes, ensiferi etc fight equally tight.(hoplites 0.23, principes 0.24). I dont think it looks good. For principes 0.3 is enough I think.

As Aper said, I would leave them as they are.

This could be done be increasing the delay by 15-20 points

I'm all in favor for this idea but it will not be done by me - am kinda not in the mood to fiddle with the EDU for now he he. So if there is a hero out there that has the stamina to do that job he is more then welcome.

[Aper]

I don't think it's a good idea to mess again with stats anyway: nobody can say if balance will be ok after that, and I don't think you want to test AGAIN all the units

[Hister]

I don't think it's a good idea to mess again with stats anyway: nobody can say if balance will be ok after that, and I don't think you want to test AGAIN all the units

Yeah my point exactly! But if someone is willing to do it (apply higher delays) I don't have anything against him doing so especially if it turns out that battles will be better I'm just a bit worried that battles won't last too long after the change since for my taste they are just about right now (but that is me...).

[Athenogoras]

Changing the delay with so much is not a straightforward process where you just add an equal amount to every unit. So it would take a lot of testing. A no-no for me right now. Go with the current one.

oh and while I remember. I think I did a custombattle as syracuse(or italiotes) and the psiloi didnt seem to have sprites assigned to them.

[Hister]

oh and while I remember. I think I did a custombattle as syracuse(or italiotes) and the psiloi didnt seem to have sprites assigned to them.

Noted on the bugs list.

[Pode]

Discussion seems to have moved on a bit while I was on travel, but I wanted to say that I think it's important when considering the balance between pike, hoplite, and sword / jav infantry to separate the performance of the individual soldier and small unit from the historical record of armies composed of those units. My sense is that Roman strategic victories owed more ultimately to their manpower advantage compared to the Hellenic armies, and the willingness this fostered to accept both tactical and strategic risk. As was once said, in war if you're not willing to die for your cause but your enemy is willing to die for his, a terrible weight has been set on one side of the scales. At a tactical level, the triplex acies gave Roman formations greater staying power and flexibility, where their leadership tradition and command structure allowed the effective use of their reserves. Hellenic generals leading their cavalry couldn't command reserves even if they had had any. The superior reach of pike and hoplite formations I would think would have made them superior in face to face combat, but I think historically Rome overcame this with the morale and tactical flexibility advantages above.

[DaVinci]

Discussion seems to have moved on a bit while I was on travel, but I wanted to say that I think it's important when considering the balance between pike, hoplite, and sword / jav infantry to separate the performance of the individual soldier and small unit from the historical record of armies composed of those units. My sense is that Roman strategic victories owed more ultimately to their manpower advantage compared to the Hellenic armies, and the willingness this fostered to accept both tactical and strategic risk. As was once said, in war if you're not willing to die for your cause but your enemy is willing to die for his, a terrible weight has been set on one side of the scales. At a tactical level, the triplex acies gave Roman formations greater staying power and flexibility, where their leadership tradition and command structure allowed the effective use of their reserves. Hellenic generals leading their cavalry couldn't command reserves even if they had had any. The superior reach of pike and hoplite formations I would think would have made them superior in face to face combat, but I think historically Rome overcame this with the morale and tactical flexibility advantages above.

... agree, and i would mention as well unmatched militaristic discipline and training for the citizens, but not special manpower in the sense of physical power, or a heroic warrior ethos, but just for that time quasi perfect "soldiers".
Rome was already a military-states-structure in nearly every aspect, paired with the absolute will to subjugate the Italian folks, especially in the respective time of the mod. And it is just known, that Hoplite/Pike Phalanx warfare wasn't a stopper for the Roman legions.

For the reflection in this mod, it would be good, if AI Legionaries indeed go for flanking maneuvers, while AI Hoplites/Pikes go for frontal attack/defence. I hope we will see such AI behaviour.

[Hister]

Good points Pode!

For the reflection in this mod, it would be good, if AI Legionaries indeed go for flanking maneuvers, while AI Hoplites/Pikes go for frontal attack/defence. I hope we will see such AI behaviour.

But isn't this happening already with latest EDU???