SSHIP - General Discussion

[Lifthrasir]

There's one replacing watchtowers by villages if I remember correctly.

[Martinskyboy]

Muslim factions rosters still need to be re-worked.

Free upkeep has been removed as too advantageous for the human player (AI can't use it). On top, this is unrealistic. Any unit has a cost to be maintained. They aren't slaves or levies and even so, how do you feed them for example?

Watchtowers are actually unrealistic too. They were not used or not as shown in game. Instead, forts, mottes, any kind of fortified places were used.

There no garrison script planned to be added to SSHIP. This has been already discussed. You would be surprised to see how a small amount of guys were affected to castles or even in some towns. There are numerous records of fortified places surrendering quickly because only defended by a dozen of soldiers. Already discussed by the past as well.

Thank for the reply. That make sense for the watchtower but I still see them as 4 legs and a platform. I found some berber camel as mercenary but still not found elephant yet.
Well levies it rater large terms because everyone was servant to the king but yes they have maintenance, but I dont think they was paid like professionnals. In medieval lot of leader used mercenaries as professional, in adition to there levies. Pro standing army was more for the late era. Even the basic garrison was often only a dozen of mans like you said and they was paid anyway for the jobs. They was no regular army in feodal, so people was fighting with the equiment of there family and from there wealth for a limited time when they was levy. Training was varying from country and for each class I suppose. Im sure you know anyway.
But the thing it for militia represent paysans with basic training in polarms and bows mostly. So they can take arms real quick when the alert bell ring and going to a weapons depot or so to take arms. I suppose they was trained for this duty too, and to serve as fast field levy when needed but not really effective and needed for harvest. So at least all militia should be recruitable in one turn I think with a cheap recruiting cost but normal upkeep if you want be realistic.Because almost everyone was defending a city when attacked with what weapon they got. Better militia are mostly more wealthy people, but I suppose they was always ready too.
In this game city represented are major one, and for bigger castle are almost all surrounded by a city or are not far from the Castle. Lot of city of our time have there origin from a castle. So seeing a city and big castle with defender, at least some peasant will have some sense. Big problem like you said it the Ai, but what just happens to me 2 time in a row, I was sieging enemy city with only against one defender and they tried to break the siege, was little weird.

[Lifthrasir]

The game is still in development Mate
... And with my limited free time, progress is slow

Edit: I'm also wondering if it (2 turns for militia recruitment) wasn't done also to avoid the AI sending full stacks of militia countless time and not using any better units
I remember something about that but I'm not sure.

[Jurand of Cracow]

The game is still in development Mate

First - thank's Lifthrasir (and MWY) for you work!
Second - it's why I don't present new, bright ideas, just try to pinpoint smaller issues. I think it's best to focus on fixing simple things (like putting the attribute "is_peasant" where seems appropriate, as I described earlier), not messing up with new factions/units/systems etc.. I find SS6.4 to be very good (especially with BftB and BGR, and SSHIP is fortunately an improvement, not a revolution.
(Btw - SSHIP changed the name of Vilnius to Kernave, which is historically right, but there is yet a change to be made in the EDA for the provincial title - in the file Duke of Vilnius still requires FM to be in Vilnius, not Kernave, so you're not given the title. For Goroden it even doesn't exist since the SS6.4 title is given now to Volodymyr.)

(2 turns for militia recruitment)

Actually, my spear militia (and other militia units) are recruitable in 1 turn. Are you talking about different militia?

[Lifthrasir]

No but I'm on too many things these days and I get confused sometimes

Noted about Kernave and Goroden in the EDA. I'll correct that. Thanks for pointing this out.

[Jurand of Cracow]

There's also a small error in the description of the Kraków title:

Description says:
{dearmad_krakow_desc} Entitled as Lord of Krakow. A region used to raids, seeks to become a centre for arts and education, and has a strong Jewish community.
{dearmad_krakow_effects_desc} Tax Collection +5%, increased loyalty, inspiration to his troops, increased authority

While the file says:
Effect TaxCollection 5
Effect LocalPopularity 1
Effect Trading 5
Effect Loyalty 1
Effect Authority 1

[+Marius+]

Watchtowers are actually unrealistic too. They were not used or not as shown in game. Instead, forts, mottes, any kind of fortified places were used.

Wonder if there's already a mod somewhere that replaces with watchtowers with tiny little fort/castle models

There's one replacing watchtowers by villages if I remember correctly.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-forts)-submod



Should not be difficult at all to implement into SSHIP.

[Markmilan]

Partly, yeah.
Yeomen Archers require the English Archers event.
Longbowmen require the Transitional armours event.

Be aware that several other units are also tied to these events.

Another option could be to edit the Export_descr_buildings.txt, and remove the event requirement, or change it to an earlier event.

Hi,
Thanks v much for the advice. Your way is definitely best, otherwise as you say would get several other units early and am only wanting to get longbowmen for England early (with practice range).

So, to do this I assume I go to SS6.3/data then open export_desr_buildings.txt and change the following files;


recruit_pool "Longbowmen" 1 0.4 1 0 requires factions { england, } and event_counter TRANSITIONAL_ARMOR 1 and not event_counter FULL_PLATE_ARMOR 1 and hidden_resource england
recruit_pool "Longbowmen" 0 0.2 1 0 requires factions { england, } and event_counter TRANSITIONAL_ARMOR 1 and not event_counter FULL_PLATE_ARMOR 1 and hidden_resource scotland or hidden_resource ireland or hidden_resource france
recruit_pool "Longbowmen" 1 0.3 2 0 requires factions { england, } and event_counter FULL_PLATE_ARMOR 1 and hidden_resource england
recruit_pool "Longbowmen" 0 0.2 1 0 requires factions { england, } and event_counter FULL_PLATE_ARMOR 1 and hidden_resource scotland or hidden_resource ireland or hidden_resource france


Change 1st line (above) to;
recruit_pool "Longbowmen" 1 0.4 1 0 requires factions { england, }
delete the other 3 lines


or should it be changed to;
recruit_pool "Longbowmen" 1 0.4 1 0 requires factions { england, } and hidden_resource England
recruit_pool "Longbowmen" 0 0.2 1 0 requires factions { england, } and hidden_resource scotland or hidden_resource ireland or hidden_resource france
recruit_pool "Longbowmen" 1 0.3 2 0 requires factions { england, } and hidden_resource England
recruit_pool "Longbowmen" 0 0.2 1 0 requires factions { england, } and hidden_resource scotland or hidden_resource ireland or hidden_resource france



Any help would be appreciated! Not sure what hidden resource means!

Thanks!

[PerXX]

Change 1st line (above) to;
recruit_pool "Longbowmen" 1 0.4 1 0 requires factions { england, }
delete the other 3 lines

Doing this would mean that Longbowmen can be recruited anywhere in the world, as long as you're playing as England. When you build the building in question, the recruitment pool will start with 1 unit being recruitable, the pool will replenish with 0.4 pr turn (so a new unit is available every 3 turns), and the maximum number of available units in the pool is 1.

or should it be changed to;
recruit_pool "Longbowmen" 1 0.4 1 0 requires factions { england, } and hidden_resource England
recruit_pool "Longbowmen" 0 0.2 1 0 requires factions { england, } and hidden_resource scotland or hidden_resource ireland or hidden_resource france
recruit_pool "Longbowmen" 1 0.3 2 0 requires factions { england, } and hidden_resource England
recruit_pool "Longbowmen" 0 0.2 1 0 requires factions { england, } and hidden_resource scotland or hidden_resource ireland or hidden_resource france



Any help would be appreciated! Not sure what hidden resource means!

Thanks!

The hidden resources are tied to settlements. Meaning in English settlements you can recruit as mentioned above, and in Scottish, Irish and French settlements you can recruit longbowmen at a lower replenishment rate. No unit available instantly when you build the building, and only replenishes at 0.2 units pr turn (so once every 5 turns). Outside of England, Scotland, Ireland and France, you will not be able to recruit Longbowmen.
You should also only keep the first two lines, since without the event requirements they do the same thing.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Some thoughts:
- happy to hear that you're planning to introduce a kind of garrison script. But don't overdo it, as some mods for Attila did (WRE doesn't fall, taking a settlement is sometimes impossible). And I don't know if AI can handle it. Does it?
- I think the removal of the free upkeep is a good idea.
- I thing the removal of any kind of forts is a VERY good idea - the behaviour of the AI is much better and the human player can't make the forts at the chokepoint, which actually abound on the map. The upshot is: less defence battles, no strange behaviour like 5 soldiers manning a fort just to block 3k army.
- I would be happy to see the watchtowers with a castle model (not village, pls). But I think it's not a priority (I feel immersion without them as well).

I have a questions about what the SSHIP team thinks about two things:
1) the gallows. I have taken Polotsk with 22k inhabitants, I had an initial unrest of 60%, but I could build gallows (+30% order) within one turn. No problem, population is happy. I wonder if it shouldn't give a lower bonus. Or maybe should cost more? (it would require then better finalncial preparation and sunk costs of subdueing a province)? But, again, how woudl the AI handle it?
2) conversion rates. You can convert a region to your religion from 10 to 40% within a few turns. In the old SS there's the Limited Assimilation option - it was much slower. I would like to do it like this. What do you think?
3) Limited Activities - well, my homerule is: I don't build in a city if there's no governor. In SS there was that option, do you plan to implement it in future?
JoC

[Lifthrasir]

No, I haven't said we will implement the garrison script. We have discussed about that by the past. For now, it is not planned to implement it but still subject to discussion.

Forts have been removed because the AI can't handle them. Again, subject to change if we find a way to improve the system.

Agree about watchtowwers. However, the model might take too much space on the startmap. A solution could be something like a fortified farm or similar stuff. I originally thought to use a motte model but it wouldn't be accurate for all factions and for the late era (wood replaced by stones).

Agree about the conversion rate. I think it has to be lower down a bit.

For limited activity, we haven't touched it. so, it has to be enabled like for SS. Can't remember for sure but I think it has to be done through the SS setup, meaning you will need to re-install SSHIP on top of it. It's not planned to implement it in SSHIP.

[Markmilan]

Thanks for your help again PerXX, that's great & appreciated.

Looking forward to playing this great mod, had a little go on it last night and its seriously good.

Just 2 last questions for anyone (I promise!) kind enough to help;
1) King of England - what regions do you need to hold playing as England for the King to get the crown; London, Norwich, Lincoln, Bristol, York & Wales or Ireland as well?
2) If I capture a settlement and change its name (by double clicking the settlement) i.e. change Dun Eideann to Edinburgh does it have any effect on the game (for example with ancillaries, missions or win conditions)?

Thanks

[PerXX]

Thanks for your help again PerXX, that's great & appreciated.

Looking forward to playing this great mod, had a little go on it last night and its seriously good.

Just 2 last questions for anyone (I promise!) kind enough to help;
1) King of England - what regions do you need to hold playing as England for the King to get the crown; London, Norwich, Lincoln, Bristol, York & Wales or Ireland as well?
2) If I capture a settlement and change its name (by double clicking the settlement) i.e. change Dun Eideann to Edinburgh does it have any effect on the game (for example with ancillaries, missions or win conditions)?

Thanks

Trigger crown_britain
 WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd


 Condition IsFactionLeader 
 and EndedInSettlement 
 and FactionType england 
 and I_SettlementOwner London = england
 and I_SettlementOwner Nottingham = england
 and I_SettlementOwner York = england
 and I_SettlementOwner Bristol = england
 and I_SettlementOwner Caernarvon = england
 and I_SettlementOwner Edinburgh = england
 and I_SettlementOwner Inverness = england
 and I_SettlementOwner Dublin = england
 and not I_WorldwideAncillaryExists crown_england
 
 AcquireAncillary crown_england chance 100

Renaming settlements should have no effect on scripts.

[lolIsuck]

For limited activity, we haven't touched it. so, it has to be enabled like for SS. Can't remember for sure but I think it has to be done through the SS setup, meaning you will need to re-install SSHIP on top of it. It's not planned to implement it in SSHIP.

As far as I know it's a standard M2TW feature you can select as an option when picking your campaign along with advisor level and time limit.

[Martinskyboy]

The game is still in development Mate
... And with my limited free time, progress is slow

Edit: I'm also wondering if it (2 turns for militia recruitment) wasn't done also to avoid the AI sending full stacks of militia countless time and not using any better units
I remember something about that but I'm not sure.

MTW2 becoming old too
Maybe 2 turn was for Ai, because I remember they was always stacking alot of them. Anyway I just tryed 50 turn with the Seljuk and quick look at starting roster for other. You said Muslims need be re-work, it just the Adebaalath Militia or something that need 2 turn. My 1st post was more about to know where I can recruit the Elephant and Camels units? Like I said I found bedouin archer as mercenary.
The other thing are minor for upkeep, fort and watchtower with the money income seem raised it no big poblem. It just help players have bigger army, I know fort it buggy for Ai, like squatting it after a defeat.
Since I played a mod with garrisson I like it much and help greatly the Ai for there home settlement . The one in DaC 3rdAge sub-mod are pretty good I think if you want a good exemple to look for. Just key settlement for ''Home'' provinces have one.
The best realistic mod will be Europa Barbarorum if you need a good historial accurate mod to compare and inspire.

Continue your prioritary development first, the first thing to avoid it to always change your planning.

[PerXX]

My 1st post was more about to know where I can recruit the Elephant and Camels units? Like I said I found bedouin archer as mercenary.

The Beduin Camel Riders are the only Camel unit, other than the Moor's Camel Gunners.
Elephant units are available as mercenary units, once Gunpowder has been discovered.

[Martinskyboy]

The Beduin Camel Riders are the only Camel unit, other than the Moor's Camel Gunners.
Elephant units are available as mercenary units, once Gunpowder has been discovered.

Thank. Elephant was used more in India after the fall of the Sassanid but I think some was still used, Im not I big fan of those canon Elephant. I think camel was used more too in desert warfare and Lancer camel was popular too I think. Anyway still in development I will try France I suppose

[Lifthrasir]

There's only 1 elephant unit available in game and that's the one with musket.

[Jurand of Cracow]

For limited activity, we haven't touched it. so, it has to be enabled like for SS. Can't remember for sure but I think it has to be done through the SS setup, meaning you will need to re-install SSHIP on top of it. It's not planned to implement it in SSHIP.

As far as I know it's a standard M2TW feature you can select as an option when picking your campaign along with advisor level and time limit.

I think (but I'm not sure) the standard MTW feature also make your computer to buy units and building on its own initiative (which is highly undesirable, isn't it?). In the SS6.4 it worked differently: only a general in the settlement could start building or recruiting, otherwise nothing happened. With BGRIV the conditions for recruitment were even harsher (War Councillor ancilliary, cultural minima reached, high zeal of the faction - all great Byg's inventions.).

I think it was a good solution from SS, and SSHIP could keep it.
While many BGR goals are achieved through other means in SSHIP (hey, I'm 80 turns into the Polish campaign and I can still only afford 4 heavy cavalry for my faction - the high prices of the elite units are really good for the gameplay, I really appreciate), some ideas might be picked up.
For instance, minimum cultural requirements for faction units. It's a historical nonsense that I can recruite Polish Piast Nobles from the ruthenian Polotsk right after having conquered it (ie - they start gathering, I still need to wait those 10 turns or so). I should have ruled for some time before it's ripe for recruitment...
Or the high zeal of the faction might be somehow represented.

Anyway, SSHIP team - thanks for the mod and do first things first, as you please.

[lolIsuck]

The standard feature had that as an option but you can turn off automanage in settlements without a governor so they do absolutely nothing. I presume it's only Byg's mod that alters it.