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Thread: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slydessertfox View Post
    The relationship between the Palestinians and Israeli's is sort of (I know it's a reach) equivalent to the relationship to Native Americans and the US government historically. In other words, a one state solution can only exist with the complete submission and breaking apart on to virtual reservations of Palestinians. This is basically what is happening now, with most of the good land being appropriated by settlers and the Palestinians in the west bank left with the scraps.
    Except that unlike the native Americans which were (mostly accidentally) severely depopulated by old world diseases, and had no access to modern mass media to gather sympathy for their cause, the Palestinians are here to stay.
    The conflict with the natives in North America ended with them subjugated. That's not really an option here. The Israeli occupation is growing more and more unsustainable, mostly for economic and diplomatic reasons rather then military capability, and both sides know it.
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  2. #22

    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Noam Chomsky
    This created a figurative coffee spit.
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  3. #23

    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caligula's_Horse View Post
    Except that unlike the native Americans which were (mostly accidentally) severely depopulated by old world diseases, and had no access to modern mass media to gather sympathy for their cause, the Palestinians are here to stay.
    The conflict with the natives in North America ended with them subjugated. That's not really an option here. The Israeli occupation is growing more and more unsustainable, mostly for economic and diplomatic reasons rather then military capability, and both sides know it.
    It seems to me that the Israel/Palestine problem is one without precedent. To my knowledge, there has never been two groups of people all going into one set of land and hating each other without a genocide.

    A difference to the Native American and USA comparison is that the Palestinians hadn't been on the land for centuries before-hand like the Native Americans, not that I think staying on the land gives you any right to it inherently.

    The Israeli Government can't seem to treat the Palestinians as equals on a civilian level as they should, instead they keep them in semi-concentration camps. You could make the argument that letting them roam free would make the problem worse though, because that would give Hamas free access to the whole of Israel.

    Or we try a no state solution. [emoji14]
    Last edited by Hazzard; January 01, 2015 at 06:12 PM.

  4. #24
    Slydessertfox's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caligula's_Horse View Post
    Except that unlike the native Americans which were (mostly accidentally) severely depopulated by old world diseases, and had no access to modern mass media to gather sympathy for their cause, the Palestinians are here to stay.
    The conflict with the natives in North America ended with them subjugated. That's not really an option here. The Israeli occupation is growing more and more unsustainable, mostly for economic and diplomatic reasons rather then military capability, and both sides know it.
    I know the analogy has a lot of holes, which was why I said it was a reach. Anyway, what I can see happening is a pseudo apartheid/jim crow esque thing emerging. Not in the sense of de jure discrimination like both of those were, but in the sense of the creation of second class citizens among the Palestinians (AFAIK the Arab Israeli's are already treated as below Jewish israelis, don't quote me on that though). The reason being Israel will not accept full equal integration because Arab citizens will then outnumber Jewish Israeli's, which is unacceptable to them. And it's increasingly seeming like the more Israel pushes on with settlement efforts, the less likely a two state solution is going to happen either.

    It also doesn't help that Obama is probably the most "anti Israel" (for lack of a better word since he's obviously not anti-Israel) president you're going to see in America, and so the pressure the US needs to put on Israel to get them to seriously consider a two state agreement won't be there.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slydessertfox View Post
    This is basically what is happening now, with most of the good land being appropriated by settlers and the Palestinians in the west bank left with the scraps.
    We're talking about a region that has had well-developed farming settlements for 10,000+ years, so the naturally good land is where cities have been since ancient times, which is precisely where the Palestinian cities are. The traditional inhabitants who live in Area C, the regions marked orange on your map are mostly Bedouins. They are still there, it is Palestinians from areas A and B whose movement in Area C is controlled and/or restricted. Most of that orange area in the east is the Judean desert, important for securing what crosses the border from Jordan, but not particularly useful for living in. It does however have commercial value because of access to the Dead Sea.

    Notice where the permanent crops and arable land are:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    In contrast to naturally fertile land, the Israeli settlements are economically viable mostly because of Israeli investment in infrastructure and through the employment of Palestinians as inexpensive labor. This last point is important because the Palestinians don't have much of an independent economy. It could be a positive development for Palestinians to inherit the infrastructure that has been developed by Israelis since 1967, but if what happened in Gaza is any precedent, there isn't much cause to be optimistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    This created a figurative coffee spit.
    In retrospect he seems to have been somewhat mistaken, yet his alleged clairvoyance is still held in high regard within some circles, for some reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slydessertfox View Post
    AFAIK the Arab Israeli's are already treated as below Jewish israelis, don't quote me on that though
    Another imperfect analogy, but the situation is similar to the treatment of African-Americans in the US. There is positive discrimination on the part of the government (affirmative action, exemption from military service, etc.) but there is still discrimination against them in the attitudes of a portion of individuals who mentally paint all Arabs with the same brush, due to over-representation in certain crimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slydessertfox View Post
    The reason being Israel will not accept full equal integration because Arab citizens will then outnumber Jewish Israeli's, which is unacceptable to them.
    There is no significant faction within Israel that wants to annex Gaza, so the West Bank doesn't present much of a demographic threat. The far right is also encouraged by the fact that French and Ukrainian Jews have been immigrating to Israel en masse recently. The Ukrainian situation is separate, but it seems anti-Jewish terror attacks in Europe are doing the exact opposite of helping the Palestinians achieve an independent state. Interestingly, most of these French Jews are second or third generation Jews from North Africa.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  6. #26
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    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    Maybe if Palestine and Israel had a common enemy they would cooperate?

    common enemy


    I can't see either side cooperating fully atm unless it was the only solution and destruction was imminent, and I don't really want that scenario evolving in the first place.

    I seem to recall an interview with one of Clinton's Israel/Palestine handlers (a guy with a polish name?) and he pointed out that over the last 40 years Palestinians and Israelis have shifted their various camps and positions a great deal (actually agreeing to sit in the same room, not assassinating Arafat on sight etc etc), and although it will take decades more there's actually hope-its just decades more away.
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  7. #27
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    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    I'll just go ahead and say what everyone's been afraid to say.

    The only way to a 1 state solution is ethnic cleansing one way or another. that's pretty much it. which inevitably means they'll just continue on and off this dance for many more years until for whatever reason one side is both strong enough and think they can get away with it pull off the ethnic cleansing

    Otherwise, many a few century later cultural differences would diminish to the point where it doesn't matter, but under current circumstances there is no one state solution without bloody massacres ,
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  8. #28
    Holger Danske's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Germans are coming View Post
    It wont work.

    End of story.

    The entire middle East is nothing but people who hate each other forced to live together.

    If I had that magical pen to edraw the borders, I would create new nations based on ethnic and secterian lines.

    Rather than creating new failed states.

    A Kurdish state, a Shia Arab state, a Druse state, an Assyrian state, a Suni Arab satae, an Alavite state and on and on.
    And all of these states would immediately be fighting over who owns what tree in the Middle East. Turning a blind eye and nuking the entire place would be a far more effective way of getting peace.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    with the current state of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, i think the only solution is that both sides decide to come into terms (whether a two state or one state solution) and somehow miraculously all the hate between the two states vanish.
    at the end of the day land is just land, the important thing here is that civilians are dying because of this conflict. innocent people who just want to live their lives at this point, the establishment of Israel was a bad idea in the first place, they should have thought of a different way to do things back then because all that decision did was cause the death of tens of thousands of people.

    "I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state."

    Albert Einstein


  10. #30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz
    It could be a positive development for Palestinians to inherit the infrastructure that has been developed by Israelis since 1967, but if what happened in Gaza is any precedent, there isn't much cause to be optimistic.
    So far everything they "inherited" they destroyed.

    A jewish foundation from new york collected money to buy the greenhouses they they handed over to the "Palestinians". And what did they do? They gutted them and used some material for arms smuggeling tunnels. Golda Meir said once, that there will be peace once the arabs love their children more than they hate the jews. And thats realy the answer. But try to tell all these "free palestine" Idiots something about the arab mindset. The answer here isn't infrastructure or a two states pseudo agreement, its killing off the arabs. Once their reproduction numbers drop to Tunesian Levels, there will be no more "useless sons" to become martyrs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slydessertfox View Post
    This is basically what is happening now, with most of the good land being appropriated by settlers and the Palestinians in the west bank left with the scraps.
    Okay this one just freaks me out.
    When you look up pictures from the first jewish settlers around 1900, there was nothing. All they have they build up from scratch. The Palestinians ain't left of with scraps, they never had more. They are just like the Pelistines in the Bible who duged sand into the wells of the Israelites. Land.... what a peasant like mindset.
    Last edited by Aikanár; February 16, 2015 at 11:41 AM. Reason: consecutive postings

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    The greenhouses became nonviable because the Israelis refused allow the exports of the produce. The Israelis never fully banned the export, but crossing the border still proved too difficult to keep up sufficient volume.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/propag...e-palestinians
    Last edited by Princeps; February 17, 2015 at 12:00 AM.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post
    The greenhouses became nonviable because the Israelis refused allow the exports of the produce. The Israelis never fully banned the export, but crossing the border still proved too difficult to keep up sufficient volume.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/propag...e-palestinians
    Seeing how much international aid Gaza uses up just to stay fed, I'd argue that the greenhouses remain perfectly viable even without exporting a thing.

    Also, any connection that link of yours has with actual facts is purely coincidental. Its propaganda, through and through.
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  13. #33

    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post
    The greenhouses became nonviable because the Israelis refused allow the exports of the produce. The Israelis never fully banned the export, but crossing the border still proved too difficult to keep up sufficient volume.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/propag...e-palestinians
    Mondoweiss eh? You may as well have cited The Electronic Intifada. Actually Alex Kane, one of the two staff writers at Mondoweiss, also works for The Electronic Intifada. The Mondoweiss slogan/subtitle is "The War of Ideas in the Middle East" and they are actually quite clear which side they're on. That article links to legit news cites to support its case, but if you read the links carefully, you realize they're connecting dots for you, which aren't really connected in the news stories. I did learn something though, that destroying the greenhouses was mostly about making a fast buck selling the parts, which is a little more nuanced.

    In any case, these are the premises that you're required to believe in order to buy that article's thesis:

    1) That left-leaning legit news outlets like The Huffington Post either don't fact-check or are in on the "anti-Palestinian propaganda".

    2) That Gaza, one of the most densely populated regions in the world, doesn't have a local market for food, even with all the international aid money flowing in.

    3) That there was so little demand for strawberries in Gaza, that they had to be fed to goats.

    4) That Israel didn't really have legitimate security reasons to control the border, i.e. there really were no weapons being smuggled into Gaza or security threats coming out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  14. #34
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    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    Seeing how much international aid Gaza uses up just to stay fed, I'd argue that the greenhouses remain perfectly viable even without exporting a thing.
    Food aid reduces domestic markets for businesses such as the gardens, making them potentially nonviable if they are not allowed to export.

    4) That Israel didn't really have legitimate security reasons to control the border, i.e. there really were no weapons being smuggled into Gaza or security threats coming out.
    Israel has no legal right to prevent weapons from being imported into Gaza.

    In any case, you have to ask yourself, what seems more likely. One, that the Palestinians blew those gardens out sheer spite or they got frustrated with the running of a facility that was probably not within their ability run profitability. I think the latter seems more logical.
    Last edited by Princeps; February 17, 2015 at 09:38 AM.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post
    Israel has no legal right to prevent weapons from being imported into Gaza.
    Do you think Israel gives two if it considers those weapons a threat? You sir, are priceless.
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  16. #36

    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post
    Food aid reduces domestic markets for businesses such as the gardens, making them potentially nonviable if they are not allowed to export.

    Israel has no legal right to prevent weapons from being imported into Gaza.
    I find the greenhouses being non-viable hard to believe considering there's conventional field based agriculture in Gaza today. Hell, even if they were non-viable at the moment, why smash them instead of mothballing them for potential future use?

    As for no legal right, sovereign nations aren't bound by the letter of the law like their citizens. International law is nothing more then a convenient excuse for strong nations to impose their will on the weak--its enforced very selectively.
    Besides, seeing as we're in a state of war with Gaza, I'd say a blockade is perfectly reasonable. Especially since we allow anything that can't be used as a weapon inside, like food, medicine, and the electricity we produce for Gaza ourselves...
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  17. #37
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    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caligula's_Horse View Post
    I find the greenhouses being non-viable hard to believe considering there's conventional field based agriculture in Gaza today. Hell, even if they were non-viable at the moment, why smash them instead of mothballing them for potential future use?

    As for no legal right, sovereign nations aren't bound by the letter of the law like their citizens. International law is nothing more then a convenient excuse for strong nations to impose their will on the weak--its enforced very selectively.
    Besides, seeing as we're in a state of war with Gaza, I'd say a blockade is perfectly reasonable. Especially since we allow anything that can't be used as a weapon inside, like food, medicine, and the electricity we produce for Gaza ourselves...
    You asked for a legitimate reason. Israel has no legitimate reason to blockade Gaza because there is no legal mandate behind their actions. Every thing Israel is doing in Gaza is illegal.

    Well, if the gardens proved unsustainable due to Israeli blockade, I can't imagine other businesses thriving. As for keeping facilities mothballed, you can hardly do that forever. As for Israel providing electricity, that's a small re compense for all Israel has stolen.

    Anyway, if you think international law is just a joke, I'm fully supportive of Palestinians killing as many Israelis as necessary, and they would be fully justified in that action, given Israel's continued occupation and blockade. If the US was justified in nuking Nagasaki, I don't see why a few anthrax missiles in tel Aviv would be such an atrocity. Japan never occupied 80 percent of the US, yet I've never heard anyone seriously argue the US is criminal for its nuclear attacks.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post
    In any case, you have to ask yourself, what seems more likely.
    What seems most likely is what the actual news sites reported, that they looted them for fast cash.

    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post
    I'm fully supportive of Palestinians killing as many Israelis as necessary... I don't see why a few anthrax missiles in tel Aviv would be such an atrocity.
    Well I think you've laid out your position quite clearly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  19. #39

    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post
    You asked for a legitimate reason. Israel has no legitimate reason to blockade Gaza because there is no legal mandate behind their actions. Every thing Israel is doing in Gaza is illegal.

    Well, if the gardens proved unsustainable due to Israeli blockade, I can't imagine other businesses thriving. As for keeping facilities mothballed, you can hardly do that forever. As for Israel providing electricity, that's a small re compense for all Israel has stolen.

    Anyway, if you think international law is just a joke, I'm fully supportive of Palestinians killing as many Israelis as necessary, and they would be fully justified in that action, given Israel's continued occupation and blockade. If the US was justified in nuking Nagasaki, I don't see why a few anthrax missiles in tel Aviv would be such an atrocity. Japan never occupied 80 percent of the US, yet I've never heard anyone seriously argue the US is criminal for its nuclear attacks.
    Ah, lovely, justifying the murder of civilians to uphold international laws that aren't worth the paper they're written on...

    I can see there's no discussion to be worth having here.
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  20. #40
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    Default Re: Israel, if two state solution is dead. How to create a single state?

    What seems most likely is what the actual news sites reported, that they looted them for fast cash.
    So, you have security problems, what do you need? You need security guards. What do you need to hire security cards: you need money. You don't have money if you don't have volume. Without money, your security guards are unpaid and might as well rip off your capital to get paid. A greenhouse has capital that can be easily liquidated, wile a conventional farm doesn't.

    I don't see how this proves that Palestinians are somehow inept barbarians who can't be trusted with their own freedom. There are plenty of functioning businesses in Gaza, some which haven't been bombed by Israel.

    Ah, lovely, justifying the murder of civilians to uphold international laws that aren't worth the paper they're written on...

    I can see there's no discussion to be worth having here.
    If Russia invaded my country of Finland, stole 80 % of her land and settled it with Russians, I would nuke St. Petersburg immediately.

    I would be self-evidently justified in my actions.

    You don't want to discuss the moral justification of Palestinian resistance, even the so called terrorism, because the uncomfortable truth is that they are perfectly justified in killing Israeli civilians.

    Israel, on the other hand, isn't even justified in it's self-defense, just as the Japanese empire lost it's right to defend itself when it occupied China. An aggressor cannot justly defend itself. Israel can justly engage in self-defense only once it has fully withdrawn to it's legitimate boundaries.
    Last edited by Princeps; February 17, 2015 at 11:21 PM.

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