[Faction Research] Angband and Orcs

[Milner]

About clothes, equipment and armours i have not doubts... "closer to an ugly elf" maybe is a good choice, perhaps.

[Algaman]

Indeed, we can create an original unit, a more dirty, dark armoured, orc warrior.

[Milner]

Of course, i would like to see one of your creations to our mod

[Peredhel]

Hello,

I'm really impressed by the work you've done and I really like the design you choosed for the people of Arda. Alexander told me you could used some help on the lore (I was really surprised when you said that you only read the Silmarillion some years ago : your memory seems to be really good) so I just thougt about the problems you seem to have about Orcs and Angband units.
On the Orcs I think Tolkien's inspiration were multiple but I see two main aspects in them :

- Lesser and uglier humans as yous said. Tolkien explicitely described them in one of his letter as some type of caricatured mongols :
"...they are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types"

- The other vision, which I tend to prefer, make them like something between apes and humans : the Orcs are often described to have long arms, reaching the ground, short and bowed legs and fangs. It's more interisting cause otherwise the easterlings look like something between Orcs and men which isn't really what we wish to represent, and also cause it's making them more original. Check Turner Mohan's depiction for Orcs to see what I mean, they are great concepts.

For skin colors it seems that the lesser Orcs are gowing from grey to yellowish or swarthy human skin when the most powerful have darker or even black skin. That's juste a possibility cause most Uruks have black skin (and the most powerful especially : Ugluk or the unit coming from Barad-dûr).

The question I'm asking myself now is : are Orcs degenerated creatures per se or do they degenerate (like almost everything in Middle-Earth) ? The point is to know if you want to consider that the Orcs in the LotR are kind of weaker and "beastier" (I don't know what word to use) than their First Age ancestors or if the original corruption is the worst that happen to them and they didn't changed that much after. Tricky question...
I think the way to conciliate both is to go for the same division than in the LotR : the stronger Orcs are more human/elvish-shaped (like the Uruks of the Third Age who use human swords and bows) and the lesser ones are more like naked chimps. For the Boldogs : being Maiar in Orc shapes they need to be Orcish and still have some awesomeness that is far beyond any orc's dreams. The movie-Azog, while not fitting at all the book-Azog, has this almost "elvish-thing" (proof is that he can move in slow-motion ) that will do it for me.

P.

[Algaman]

This is a very complete point of view, Peredhel.
I like to think orcs from the first age, as degeneration from corrupted elves, were more "stylized" than their LOTR counterparts, and yes we can have the more "beastial" orc, full of corruption, more naked but stronger, just like berserkers and a little version, smaller, and perhaps weaker, but more in numbers...

[Milner]

This is a very complete point of view, Peredhel.

Indeed!!

- The other vision, which I tend to prefer, make them like something between apes and humans : the Orcs are often described to have long arms, reaching the ground, short and bowed legs and fangs. It's more interisting cause otherwise the easterlings look like something between Orcs and men which isn't really what we wish to represent, and also cause it's making them more original. Check Turner Mohan's depiction for Orcs to see what I mean, they are great concepts.

I prefer this point of view too...i'll check Turner Mohan's work, i think that i don't know...

The question I'm asking myself now is : are Orcs degenerated creatures per se or do they degenerate (like almost everything in Middle-Earth) ?

My opinion is that they degenerate more and more along the ages, but it's a suposition of mine without any real base on Tolkien's work.

(I was really surprised when you said that you only read the Silmarillion some years ago : your memory seems to be really good)

Sometimes, only sometimes .

Well, soon it'll be a orc prototype by Algaman...we count with you to guide us in the devp. forum with all those different units

[Peredhel]

I like to think orcs from the first age, as degeneration from corrupted elves, were more "stylized" than their LOTR counterparts

My opinion is that they degenerate more and more along the ages, but it's a suposition of mine without any real base on Tolkien's work.

Well if you both agree. It doesn't change much though cause both Elves and Men degenerated too from FA to TA. I think the difference is that some creatures from the FA suirvived (like Dragons or Balrogs) but there aren't any individual of the Free Peoples able to fight them (well okay Bard but with an antic arrow...) while in the FA the most powerful lord among Elves and Men did have this ability to fight those powerful creatures and (sometimes) not dying.

And yes we can have the more "beastial" orc, full of corruption, more naked but stronger, just like berserkers and a little version, smaller, and perhaps weaker, but more in numbers...

Well that's not exactly what I meant : for me the more "beastial" are also the smaller-weaker kind. In the LotR the bigger-stronger an Orc is, the more diciplined he is (once again "The Uruk-Hai" is probably the best chapter to check with all kind of Orcs : Uruks and Orcs from Isengard, great and small Orcs from the Misty Mountains, strong and long-armed Orcs from Mordor, etc.) The only exception being the Half-Orcs with axes at the Isen fords.

Indeed!!
I prefer this point of view too...i'll check Turner Mohan's work, i think that i don't know...

He's a fine fellow and my prefered Tolkien artist on the web : he's both extremly talentuous and full of good ideas regarding Tolkien's world design. Here is a link to his gallery : check it out !

Well, soon it'll be a orc prototype by Algaman...we count with you to guide us in the devp. forum with all those different units

Well I can see various units for Orcs based on Tolkien's writings. I'll post a proposition on the dev's forum.

[Nelduin]

Agreed, I don't like all his concepts (Fingolfin and Mhaedros for example), but he is great on others, like this one:

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

He's a fine fellow and my prefered Tolkien artist on the web : he's both extremly talentuous and full of good ideas regarding Tolkien's world design. Here is a link to his gallery : check it out !

I'm a bit conflicted on his presentation of Middle-earth. I love some of his depictions, and others I disagree with. Some other Tolkien artists around whose work I really like are Jenny Dolfen (Her depiction of Tolkien's Elves is probably my favourite), Anke Eissmann (Probably my go-to for depictions of the Númenóreans).

[Peredhel]

Well for pure talent Turner may be challenged by Jenny Dolfen (and also Ekukanova) and he isn't yet at the level of a John Howe but for designing the world of Tolkien the way I imagine it he is simply the best. I like Jenny's clothes and her aquarelles are simply beautiful but her Elves look too "chilidish" for me, her criteria for beauty are basically taken from mangas when Turner's criterias are trying to be close of the people of Middle Age's criterias (see his depiction of Fingolfin for example), and I think that last vision is closer of the professor.
Anke Eissman is my second take for design (her Ulmo is soooo cooler than John Howe's) but despite a wonderful talent she isn't reaching the same level as those I mentionned above.

(hew... wasn't that topic about video-games ? :-p )

P.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I myself never really liked John Howe's style.

her criteria for beauty are basically taken from mangas

What? That is blatantly false. Her Elves look youthful, but certainly not childish.

Mohan seems to steer a bit too close to the stereotypical fantasy design, or has a rather Renaissance-esque feel at times, which I find unfitting for the Dark Ages-Late Antiquity feel of Middle-earth.

EDIT: If this is too intrusive on the thread, should we continue it via PM?

[Milner]

If this is too intrusive on the thread, should we continue it via PM?

You can go on here, it's very interesting to find good concepts

[Algaman]

Right now i´m working in a kind of "fathers of the orcs" units.
I mean, the orcs from the first age, I think they are powerful and scary but still with some elfish remembrance, grotesque, yes, badasses, of course, but not so beastly. Let´s see what we can get. Finally I posted an image few minutes ago, I hope you like the concept .
Kind regards, friends.-

[Peredhel]

I myself never really liked John Howe's style.

It's his own style, very gothic, it's not really the mood Tolkien was in but it's certainly really well done.

What? That is blatantly false. Her Elves look youthful, but certainly not childish.

Well... my english betrayed me here (I'm not a native speaker) ! :p I meant "youthful", basically they all look like teenagers, it changed in her last paintings though, it's getting better.

Mohan seems to steer a bit too close to the stereotypical fantasy design, or has a rather Renaissance-esque feel at times, which I find unfitting for the Dark Ages-Late Antiquity feel of Middle-earth.

My turn to feel insulted ^^ : Turner is really careful about making his concepts really "darkagish" (here some Dunlendings or Turin for example). He is using references from the Renaissance for other fantasy works (not Tolkien-related) and for Numenor (which fits in my opinion).

Right now i´m working in a kind of "fathers of the orcs" units.
I mean, the orcs from the first age, I think they are powerful and scary but still with some elfish remembrance, grotesque, yes, badasses, of course, but not so beastly. Let´s see what we can get. Finally I posted an image few minutes ago, I hope you like the concept .

Your concept is awesome. If I didn't knew Milner's work already I wouldn't believe you could accomplish so much with the RTW engine. Your "father of the Orcs" could also stand for a Boldog, the Maiar who took Orc-shape, which could be an elite unite in the game.

P.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

It's his own style, very gothic, it's not really the mood Tolkien was in but it's certainly really well done.

I don't really think a 'Gothic' style fits Tolkien though.

My turn to feel insulted ^^ : Turner is really careful about making his concepts really "darkagish" (here some Dunlendings or Turin for example). He is using references from the Renaissance for other fantasy works (not Tolkien-related) and for Numenor (which fits in my opinion).

I always imagined a mix of Archaic, Medieval Roman and Late Dark Ages style for Númenor. The Archaic parts which I thought of as being rather Hellenic or Punic in nature, fitting the sea and sailing-oriented Númenórean culture, the Medieval Roman part because of their 'shiny' and ostentatious nature, are appropriate for the fabulously rich Númenor (Somewhat like this armour or this sword) and finally the late Dark ages stuff serve as a link to Númenor's heirs.

I rather liked this one of his Númenórean concepts.

However, I found that images like this one look too 'sci-fi' or 'stereotypical fantasy' for my taste.

[iskandar13]

If I may express an opinion, the roster of Angband and Orcs can prove to bea bit low in comparison to the richness of the world of the Elves.
So, the first orcs first era, according to what Tolkien wrote ofdegenerated elves, but whether the activity of "genetic area" Melkorhad to to this limit?
I suggest that in addition to the "elvish" orcs, add twoadditional lines to the other-the "humanish" orcs (basically similarto the third age orcs), and the third line, the result of "geneticexperiments" of Elves, men and humanoid monkeys as gorillas orgiganthopitecus.
The second and third line orcs would become available with the developmentof the game.
A brief description of the individual lines of the orcs;
Elvish orcs-the earliest (Utumno line?)-first elvish orcs smaller andweaker than Elves-the average height of 155 cm, but numerous and easilyavailable. Look close to the elves, but with grey skin and pointy teeth. Thenext generation of elvish orcs-like Algaman project-powerful, but retaining theElf features average height 180 cm.
And in the end, the most powerful elvish orcs-high at 190 cm, agile than asElves, but demonic (blackskins, red eyes?).
All elvish orcs could use good weapons, the better this better (galvorneventually by demonic elvish orcs), could be disciplined and highly trained
(the better the more disciplined and trained)
Demonic elvish orcs could resemble a bit of dark elves in the warhammer universe.
As for the other line-humanish orcs-there is no what to write-they would besimilar to the orcs from lotr, less disciplined and less weapons and armor thanelvish orcs, but numerous and cheap.
The third line (apes orcs) would be available at the latest and shouldresemble the orcs of warhammer universe or wow, should be furious, undiscipled,untrained, but big and strong and easy going in berserk. They could use onlyprimitive weapons and armor, they would be naked and savage.
Sorry for my poor English and i hope thatmy suggestions on something useful.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

The next generation of elvish orcs-like Algaman project-powerful, but retaining theElf features average height 180 cm.

There is nothing to indicate Orcs being that tall.

And in the end, the most powerful elvish orcs-high at 190 cm, agile than asElves, but demonic (blackskins, red eyes?).

What in the Hell? Are you even thinking about Arda right now?

All elvish orcs could use good weapons, the better this better (galvorneventually by demonic elvish orcs), could be disciplined and highly trained

So you are saying they would use a metal which could only be made by one person, who wasn't on Morgoth's side and most likely could not mass-produce it?

The third line (apes orcs) would be available at the latest and shouldresemble the orcs of warhammer universe or wow, should be furious, undiscipled,untrained, but big and strong and easy going in berserk. They could use onlyprimitive weapons and armor, they would be naked and savage.

WAAAAGH? This is Arda, so I think not. There is no reason to impose ideas from other settings on Tolkien's Legendarium. What next? Elves with massive eyebrows and improbable physiques that fight in their underwear?

[Bercor]

Hehe, be gentle there, Feanaro .

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Hehe, be gentle there, Feanaro .

Yeah. I think I was a bit too harsh.

[Milner]

Feanaro speak with passion...

Iskandar13, your suggestions are far from what we wants (not all, but many of them)...and we can not improve things similar to Warhammer's Universe if we are trying to stay closed to Tolkien's Legendarium, that's not possible.
Too much tall orcs, and "apple orc"...in my opinion that's a bad choice. And about galvorn armour, Feanaro is right...too much inacurate with Tolkien's lore.

Anyway we post some news about this, soon...

Regards.