Spear Wall...

**Borluc** · February 28, 2007, 04:52 AM

I haven't found any use for this formation except for receiving horse charges which rarely happen.

I've noticed that units that have the ability also have "very long spears". This was represented well in RTW where they were able to defeat spearmen with short spears, but here I don't see any signifigant reach advantage.

It seems like all of the units that use this ability are weak compared to their non-spear wall using counterparts. For instance, Janissary Heavy Infantry are very powerful (probably 2nd or 3rd strongest infantry), yet the Danish special halberdiers are damn near useless. I remember playing as Sicily and finding out that my halberd militia were useless compared to Italian spearmen.

It just seems like their formation is not used the way it should be. A solid block of men wielding halberds should be formidable. Don't even get me started on pikemen equipping swords when one enemy makes it near to the flank.

Have modders noticed this or is it considered a non-issue?

---

Ohh one more thing. I noticed that the only mod I've played to date that gets climbing siege ladders and towers right is The Long Road. I prefer playing here, but is there a way to analyze his mod in order to get it right? As it is now, I get beaten by a few units of peasants when I use 2 towers filled with swordsmen. They simply do not climb up the ladders like they are supposed to and they don't seem to react very well when they make it up. I see them standing there getting stabbed and doing nothing at times. I've resorted to just making catapults and destroying all the walls so I can enter and not lose my best units due to the bug.

**Space Voyager** · February 28, 2007, 05:20 AM

Spear wall is... not as it should be. M2TW (animation?) problem. If soldiers were able to walk/attack in phalanx they should be able to do just the same (except the kneeling) in spear wall IMO.

**Lusted** · February 28, 2007, 06:07 AM

Spear wall IS A DEFENSIVE FORMATION, repeat, DEFENSIVE FORMATION. With it enabled units with it can beat equivalent sword armed infantry, and beat cav. But if you try and attack with it you will not do as well.

**NefariousWolf** · March 02, 2007, 10:05 PM

I have a post all about my gripes with pikemen over here if you're interested. They perform much less well in LTC than in vanilla relative to shielded units because of the shield bug workaround.

**Borluc** · March 03, 2007, 02:17 AM

I have to disagree. Spear wall does not work in LTC. I haven't tried it in other mods or vanilla, but Aventuros just got slaughtered by dismounted knights. It wasn't even close, as the pikemen in the front row and flanks just went out of formation almost immediately after engagement and the deeper ranks just followed suit as their comrades died.

The whole point isn't a question of who should win; its that spear wall is broken and does not function.

**Lusted** · March 03, 2007, 06:24 AM

Then how come i can take Aventuros in 4 ranks deep and beat the hell out of Armoured Swordsmen in my mod?

**Space Voyager** · March 03, 2007, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Lusted

Spear wall IS A DEFENSIVE FORMATION, repeat, DEFENSIVE FORMATION. With it enabled units with it can beat equivalent sword armed infantry, and beat cav. But if you try and attack with it you will not do as well.

Is it not possible to use it just as phalanx? Which was (Swiss pikemen, ancient Greeks) used offensively with huge success as some amateur historian wrote on TWC forums.

**Lusted** · March 03, 2007, 02:02 PM

Is it not possible to use it just as phalanx? Which was (Swiss pikemen, ancient Greeks) used offensively with huge success as some amateur historian wrote on TWC forums.

No the formation is different to the phalanx formation of RTW.

**Borluc** · March 03, 2007, 10:46 PM

I'm really not faulting your mod. Its just that from what I've seen it doesn't work like that while using LTC.

Do your unit stats translate to custom battles while in LTC?

When you fight with them, do they stay in formation and actually thrust their pikes forward?

**Lee1026** · March 03, 2007, 10:53 PM

Well, the swiss did quite well using them on the offensive.

**Lusted** · March 04, 2007, 06:09 AM

Do your unit stats translate to custom battles while in LTC?

Yes

When you fight with them, do they stay in formation and actually thrust their pikes forward?

Yes. Here is how i beat Armoured Swordsmen with Aventuros. I drag out the Aventuros 4 ranks deep, have spearwall and guard mode on, then i leave them. The armoured swordsmen will lose.

**Lee1026** · March 04, 2007, 12:54 PM

But in your mod, they never use swords, right? Or is that just from real combat 1.1?

**Lusted** · March 04, 2007, 01:09 PM

But in your mod, they never use swords, right? Or is that just from real combat 1.1?

No in my mod they use swords. I do not use the spear 'fix'.

**chewy** · March 04, 2007, 05:28 PM

Lusted is right about the aventuros. My pikemen kept using the pikes to attack the center and only my flanks that was overrun started using swords. I eventaully lost but i was able to take the noble swordsman down to 15 men. Not too bad imo