Spartan hoplites and reforms questions

[ImaginaryFriend]

What is the idea with spartan hoplites and reforms?

Most hellenic factions get their royal hoplites by simply gaining access to copper and researching three technologies. And all those hoplites are roughly as good or even better than spartan thorax hoplites (some have better armor). Sparta needs to complete both reforms to get equal or slightly inferior units.

In addition to this other hellenes get more general unit options and other factional highlights.

Sparta then quickly gets these weird guest hoplites that are essentially just as good as spartan thureos hoplites but come from perioikoi class so they are actually way more useful.

So what is the point in all of this?

I get that hoplites are very strong and that spartans can not be supermen but i do think something should to be done to make spartan hoplites more worth the effort of keeping our precious homiois alive. I would suggest giving them 3 speed due to superior conditioning or something to make them stand out.
Macedon all ready gets 3 speed pike units so it would not be op compared to other factions.

Also that spartan youths unit is just pointless. i can not see anyone wasting their precious homiois in such a squishy unit.

[Brdar]

Yep, I played with them only once since I tried DeI. No point in them whatsoever. Their phalanx units get same stats as other Hellenes, get outdone by Illyrian hoplites and buffed daican and celtic shieldwall, their general unit has less armor than Makedon and Athens gen. units (even though they look like they got extra 10kg of steel on them). Their only advantage, and I mean the only advantage is that they get +10% move speed (about 10). So yeah, preety stupid. Also, their navy could be spears instead of swords units but whatever.

[Legatus88]

I believe that Spartan hoplites have a hidden higher hit point bonus over regular hoplites.

[Brdar]

No, you can check it when they are on transports.

[ImaginaryFriend]

I believe that Spartan hoplites have a hidden higher hit point bonus over regular hoplites.

I think Spartan general unit gets 5hp more per model but other spartan units do not. At least that is how it was the last time i used PFM on DEI files. It has been a while.

[Brdar]

You can check hp value of units on transports AFAIK

[KAM 2150]

Spartans have hidden extra HP and speed buff compared to other hoplites.

At the time, they were not counted among best hoplites and were more of barely functional backwater state. Even agoge dropped and their military was rather weak.

They did try to regain status by second half of 3rd century but they got beaten in every larger clash.

We wanted to make Sparta slowly grow to its former strength, with each reform giving upgrade to your basic Spartan hoplites, with final one making them really elite, although even starting ones are better than any regular hoplites, just worse than most elite hoplites. As you progress, you get rewarded with better troops and challange of it is the whole fun about them.

[Brdar]

Spartans have hidden extra HP and speed buff compared to other hoplites.

At the time, they were not counted among best hoplites and were more of barely functional backwater state. Even agoge dropped and their military was rather weak.

They did try to regain status by second half of 3rd century but they got beaten in every larger clash.

We wanted to make Sparta slowly grow to its former strength, with each reform giving upgrade to your basic Spartan hoplites, with final one making them really elite, although even starting ones are better than any regular hoplites, just worse than most elite hoplites. As you progress, you get rewarded with better troops and challange of it is the whole fun about them.

How about adding custom thorax spear units for them, also, their thorax swords cost noble class and, all other hellenes sword units cost 2nd class(except pergamon elite and pontos elite), but they get outclassed by them easely. Is this intentional?
Also, how about replacing their navy units with spear units that can form defensive formation (maybe after thureos or thorax reforms), like arabian bireme units but with better training like roman classari?

[ImaginaryFriend]

So Sparta is supposed to be sort of hard mode. i can understand that but there are still some things that do not quite come out right.

Extra HP? I have done many tests with spartan thureos hoplites against other heavy hoplite units with same MA/MD and there is no real difference in casualty rate. Their better morale shows in the end but the number of soldiers left has no meaningful difference. Usually the opposing unit breaks at about 2/3 casualties and the difference to the spartan unit is one or two men. That is against units that use lower social class population.

Then there are Trophimoi hoplites that make regular and thureos spartan hoplites obsolete because of equal stats and they are perioikoi class and that makes all the difference even with longer recruitment duration. I mean to say that it is kind of odd to play as Sparta but then feel like i am being penalized for using actual spartan units.

I am in no way saying that Sparta is too weak or anything like that. I like that factions are different but i would really like to get more use out of core spartan units because they look so good.

[ImaginaryFriend]

Also now that we are on the topic of Sparta, why does city of Sparta require different reform level to be upgraded to tier 3. is it on purpose or a bug? It lets you build commercial Sparta but not ancient or fortified options.

[ImaginaryFriend]

Also, now that we are on the topic of Sparta. Why does city of Sparta require different reform level to be upgraded to tier 3. is it on purpose or a bug? It lets you build commercial Sparta but not ancient or fortified options.

[Brdar]

So Sparta is supposed to be sort of hard mode. i can understand that but there are still some things that do not quite come out right.

Extra HP? I have done many tests with spartan thureos hoplites against other heavy hoplite units with same MA/MD and there is no real difference in casualty rate. Their better morale shows in the end but the number of soldiers left has no meaningful difference. Usually the opposing unit breaks at about 2/3 casualties and the difference to the spartan unit is one or two men. That is against units that use lower social class population.

Then there are Trophimoi hoplites that make regular and thureos spartan hoplites obsolete because of equal stats and they are perioikoi class and that makes all the difference even with longer recruitment duration. I mean to say that it is kind of odd to play as Sparta but then feel like i am being penalized for using actual spartan units.

I am in no way saying that Sparta is too weak or anything like that. I like that factions are different but i would really like to get more use out of core spartan units because they look so good.

As I was saying, they ARE weak, if you had infinite amount of classes like AI then they would be meh at best. They are nowhere near as good as other Hellenic states(starting position and economicly ). You are almost 100% gonna be foursomed by Makedon, Athens , Epeiros and Krete. I only manage to win with them if i mass hire mercs (that have better stats mind you) turn 1 and attack athens and then improvise and use AI dumb logic to win Hellespont and move on. Also yeah, i also didnt notice this hp increase anywhere but ok. Also their tech tree needs to be redone if I'm being honest. Like get 5% 5% stats like barbarians for tech, instead of the generic greek unit tech improvements.

[ImaginaryFriend]

As I was saying, they ARE weak, if you had infinite amount of classes like AI then they would be meh at best. They are nowhere near as good as other Hellenic states(starting position and economicly ). You are almost 100% gonna be foursomed by Makedon, Athens , Epeiros and Krete. I only manage to win with them if i mass hire mercs (that have better stats mind you) turn 1 and attack athens and then improvise and use AI dumb logic to win Hellespont and move on. Also yeah, i also didnt notice this hp increase anywhere but ok. Also their tech tree needs to be redone if I'm being honest. Like get 5% 5% stats like barbarians for tech, instead of the generic greek unit tech improvements.

I disagree on the weak status. Sparta gets decent helot hoplites that are really good for soaking up missiles and charges and still manage to get respectable amount of kills. They are almost as good as other hellenes standard hoplites.

Their starting position is not that bad. Epeiros is always stuck fighting rome and will die to them eventualy, Sparta can easily take athens by turn 11 (i usually declare on them as soon as the existing treaties go of cool down and ambush is your friend if they do not send their armies away from the city), no way makedon comes at you with any significant armies so fast and they start in hellas which is one of the best provinces in the whole game.

It is just that the reward for being patient and careful with your spartans does not seem to exist. There is no difference in the durability or speed or stamina of your units compared to other hoplites, i checked. They do not move any faster than other hoplites nor do they die any slower.

[Brdar]

Wrong but ok, do you set camp. to hard diff (battle normal)?
Also, Athens spams 7/15 35 armor hoplites, has walled port and can hire mercs en mass, while you're stuck with maybe one and a half (really streching it) army of mixed , and your second pop is 7/15 30 Armor. They also always get attacked (at least on Hard). And dont get me started on their logades hoplites or ilyrian 9 21 30 armor hoplites. So how are they not bad?
Also , speed is increased, that is true, get +5% speed movement and you will see spartans at 3 MS while other hoplites are stuck at 2 (even with full tech ).

Just to clarify, I know this game inside out. My last play was Syracuse and both rome and Carthage decared war on me at the same time, and that was still more easy than sparta(gratned not the grindy roman legions spam).

[ImaginaryFriend]

I play on VH/N and as Sparta i first disband the starting army and raise the heir´s army. Then i start recruiting from the cheapest units. Usually my 1st army comp is 10 of better hoplites, a mix of spartan and perioikoi, and at least 4 helot hoplites and a couple of basic helot spears. Rest of the slots go to mercenary missiles that happen to be available.
If you want you can get six spartan hoplite units if they are left to multiply while recruiting the other units. you just have to repopulate Sparta later then.

The general is the Spartan heir and he does the recruiting on the road within reinforcement range of sparta. If Athens attacks i get to use the garrison to soak up all the damage and retaliate fast or if they do not i try ambushing. If they still do not attack i raise another general to siege Athens so i can destroy any armies outside the city with out fighting the garrison and then assault the city itself. It can sometimes be a high casualty operation but after capturing Athens you are pretty much set for the game.

I just had all spartan, perioikoi, neomandes and trophimoi race across a battlemap with individual and joint movement commands and there was no difference in their speeds.

[Brdar]

Well those are all "spartan" units , did you try it with other merc hoplites.
Also, I'm with you that theres some BS going on, theres no way they have extra HP, never seen that benefit anywhere.

[ImaginaryFriend]

I think any buffs are directed only to "Spartan hoplite" line and not on any other units on the roster. I doubt even spartan youths or that homioi cavalry are supposed to get any buffs.
Also i just checked the beta land_units_tables with PFM and none of spartan units have any bonus HP. Not even the generals bodyguard that i remember used to have it. I do not know where unit speed stat is located so i can not check that.

Actually, i´m gonna try how many extra hp will make a difference.

[ImaginaryFriend]

I do wonder how the speed is scaled in the game. i mean if the scale is 1-10 or 1-50 there is a big difference on the value of one point of speed. Also does the game track decimals or do you need full points to gain advantage. I am almost tempted to look at some tutorials.

[ImaginaryFriend]

A quick test of spartan thorax hoplites vs athens legodes.
No bonus hp for anyone legodes break at 72 men, Spartans have 73. Spartans are close to breaking as well.
+5hp for Spartans, legodes break at 74 men, Spartans have 91
+10hp for spartans and legodes break at 74 men, Spartans have 105

Being homioi class i think that even with bonus hp using any real spartan hoplite units in one on one against any other heavy hoplites would be too costly to actually take the engagement but it would be valuable bonus against missiles and massed low tier units.

[Brdar]

A quick test of spartan thorax hoplites vs athens legodes.
No bonus hp for anyone legodes break at 72 men, Spartans have 73. Spartans are close to breaking as well.
+5hp for Spartans, legodes break at 74 men, Spartans have 91
+10hp for spartans and legodes break at 74 men, Spartans have 105

Being homioi class i think that even with bonus hp using any real spartan hoplite units in one on one against any other heavy hoplites would be too costly to actually take the engagement but it would be valuable bonus against missiles and massed low tier units.

Dont Logades have 3 extra armor, I dont know how it's calculated when in direct PHLX vs PHLX formation. Maybe that made a difference.
Also, do Spartans have hp bonus or not? And that is what makes them weak, to use their best units you pay waaaay to much in 1st class. Even their mellee units suck cause of that.