Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

[Winston Smith]

I don't think calling Carter's NSA a globalist war criminal makes a lick of sense. On either count.

And being a globalist is not a bad thing.

[paladinbob123]

You may not know but, modern technology has advanced quite a bit since the wall of China was built. .

Yeah I know , but when the so called hordes of people that so called threaten the border and they start climbing the wall using one device or other , or digging under it, you are still going to need people. [you know .....actual people ] to actually do the job of controlling the border.....The wall however much advanced in technology ..is after all, is still just a wall , which just sits there..unless of course it is actually a transformer in disguise? Otherwise it is just a wall , and doesn't really do anything much apart from standing still

No Shi t Sherlock, its you who doesn't believe in having boarders.

Its sorta funny , despite your comments , that I don't actually mention that I didn't believe in borders, and my last few texts are referring to your criticism about my comments, about children being held captive [which is I believe the thing we are supposed to be talking about ]
So I might as well repost what I said before , from my previous text:-

"....but I know that trump supporters cannot read effectively so I advise you to look over earlier articles...."

This will of course show that I don't actually mention the border in the context you state, but hey, make up things if you are finding the argument difficult , but it is rather hard to discuss matters when you use blatant falsehoods.

I project my lack of reading comprehension onto Trump supporters
But what about Fox news right wing propaganda?

I didn't actually say those words, so I don't know why you wish to use them in quotes, and while I do appreciate your inventiveness, I don't really prescribe you invent your own words and then say there are someone else's words, as It does rather seem misleading.

The parents of the children detained broke the law. The consequences of their action rests soley on the parents. shame on them and the countries that allow them through theirs to reach the US..

So what you are saying , that because these parents broke the law [in your country] that excuses the fact, that they are separated from there parents[in some-cases permanently] ? Does that sound like justice to you , that the children should suffer such a fate? , even so far , as some even dying from neglect whilst in custody . I assume then putting one year old babes into a court seems entirely justified to you , where-as the rest of the civilized world looks on from afar , at this complete unmitigated mess of a policy .

As far as calling shame on other countries to there own border practices , I don't think the US government who puts one year old babes in court , can really comment on other countries practices without first dealing with shame of its own, and I recommend that they get there own border in some-sort of regular order, that doesn't create hundreds of orphans due to mismanagement before they comment on others.

MSNBC is still left wing, Trump derangement syndrome propoganda.

Everything is relative , I think most American TV is all right-wing in my perspective , I think your perspective might be a little different
As for Trump derangement syndrome , I can see that many people are suffering derangement from his leadership and advise any to seek treatment with liberal doses of alcohol to take the edge off the continual news he makes

[Aexodus]

Yeah I know , but when the so called hordes of people that so called threaten the border and they start climbing the wall using one device or other , or digging under it, you are still going to need people. [you know .....actual people ] to actually do the job of controlling the border.....The wall however much advanced in technology ..is after all, is still just a wall , which just sits there..unless of course it is actually a transformer in disguise? Otherwise it is just a wall , and doesn't really do anything much apart from standing still

There will be border patrol, as there has always been. Except their job would be easier.

So what you are saying , that because these parents broke the law [in your country] that excuses the fact, that they are separated from there parents[in some-cases permanently] ? Does that sound like justice to you , that the children should suffer such a fate? , even so far , as some even dying from neglect whilst in custody . I assume then putting one year old babes into a court seems entirely justified to you , where-as the rest of the civilized world looks on from afar , at this complete unmitigated mess of a policy .

If an American citizen breaks the law they are separated from their children too. Adults and children can’t be detained by law for more than 20 days together.

[paladinbob123]

There will be border patrol, as there has always been. Except their job would be easier

Although I am always glad when peoples jobs are easier , if the border patrol are still doing the same job, ...wouldn't that mean that there job is still the same? {grins} although I have heard that the recent border crossings has massively decreased since the days of George bush , which actually meant [in real terms] their actual job is now definitely easier in terms of processing people

If an American citizen breaks the law they are separated from their children too. Adults and children can’t be detained by law for more than 20 days together.

I am glad American citizens have a 20days ruling that protects there rights and children, but it does seem rather extreme to have one rule for Americans [who could be 1st generation immigrants] where-as immigrants can have there own children turned into orphans {tilts head sideways in questioning pose}....Perhaps they could likewise change a permanent separation of parent and child as a punishment for immigrants to something more measured in days perhaps ?

[paladinbob123]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/03/n...re-to-act.html

quote:-
The government was supposed to submit a plan to a federal judge in California on Thursday to reunite the families, but instead it told the A.C.L.U. to come up with its own plan, urging the group to use its “considerable resources and their network of law firms, N.G.O.s, volunteers and others” to accomplish the task, in a court filing that a lawyer for the A.C.L.U., Lee Gelernt, called “remarkable.”
U.S. District Judge Dana Sabraw held a hearing with both parties on Friday and said, “This responsibility is 100 percent on the government.”

It seems with further developments that the government is unwilling/unable to reunite the immigrant families with there children after separating them and hopes to rely on "volunteers" and perhaps the ACLU to do so , after they have caused the issue after there new practices. Judges found the decision to return the children "unacceptable" and saying that it was "100% the responsibility of the administration" ....So for those of you , who argued that the trump administration had things, all in hand after there new adopted policies of trump, take a bow {sarcasm}, for who knew it was so hard to return children to there parents..[adopting trump handwave] who knew?



quote [from ny times article]:-
Eight children are expected to get on a plane in New York on Tuesday, headed to Guatemala. There, they will be reunited with their parents who were deported ahead of them, after being separated by the Trump administration at the southern border.

Their flight was arranged by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, known as ICE, but the reunion effort for children whose parents were deported is not being led by the federal government, which divided the families in the first place. Instead, it has fallen to volunteers, activists and lawyers around the country who have scoured birth certificate registries in Central America, passed names to elected officials and coordinated with groups there who have run radio ads to find parents who might be in Guatemala’s remote mountain villages.

I seem to remember a time , when America was lead by go-getters who would achieve wonders , performing even the impossible ,when the will was there , now it seems they cant even organise returning a few hundred children.....Alas, it seems there seems little will these days , in these dark times in America , except to use the immigrants for blame , for there own political problems .

[ByzantinePowerGame]

Does anybody know for certain that ALL of those children are with adults who are parents as opposed to being with adults who are sex traffickers?

Can you guarantee that no adult bringing a child across the border is actually a kidnapper or some sort of trafficker? Wouldn't it make sense to separate them and question them separately?

[Aexodus]

I am glad American citizens have a 20days ruling that protects there rights and children, but it does seem rather extreme to have one rule for Americans [who could be 1st generation immigrants] where-as immigrants can have there own children turned into orphans {tilts head sideways in questioning pose}....Perhaps they could likewise change a permanent separation of parent and child as a punishment for immigrants to something more measured in days perhaps ?

I’m not sure what you mean. The 20 days limit was originally set for migrant families, but I assume it applies to all.

Point is, if they want to prosecute border tresspassers, the aren’t in practice allowed to keep families together in custody, so the kids have to go somewhere that technically isn’t custody.

[The spartan]

Does anybody know for certain that ALL of those children are with adults who are parents as opposed to being with adults who are sex traffickers?

Can you guarantee that no adult bringing a child across the border is actually a kidnapper or some sort of trafficker? Wouldn't it make sense to separate them and question them separately?

I mean, does anybody know for certain that ALL random people on the street aren't secret cat burglars? Wouldn't it makes sense to detain everyone on the street and search their belongings?

I am purposefully being facetious, but I think the issue is around how long the kids are being separated from their (alleged) parents, not so much preventing independent questioning altogether.

[Aexodus]

Because standing on the street isn’t illegal, and crossing the border is.

[The spartan]

I was more getting at the idea of basing rules on even minimal probability ("how can we be sure that ALL...") is not a very good idea.

[Aexodus]

For the same reason you wouldn’t just let any stranger live in your house. sure most would be fine, but some aren’t. Without checks you don’t know who is and isn’t a bad actor.

[PointOfViewGun]

Because standing on the street isn’t illegal, and crossing the border is.

It's not really that simple especially since pretty much all countries in question are signatory to the 1951 Refugee Convention.

[Aexodus]

You what now?

[Diocle]

It's not really that simple especially since pretty much all countries in question are signatory to the 1951 Refugee Convention.

Refugee Convention doesn't apply to economic migrants.

Economic migrants, illegally trespassing the national border of a country, are just criminals and as criminals they must be treated.

USA =/= Mexico, they will never exist International Conventions bypassing the concept of national borders, face it guys: it will never happen!

[PointOfViewGun]

You what now?

You need to know what laws your country signed up to before making legal arguments.

Refugee Convention doesn't apply to economic migrants.
Economic migrants, illegally trespassing the national border of a country, are just criminals and as criminals they must be treated.
USA =/= Mexico, they will never exist International Conventions bypassing the concept of national borders, face it guys: it will never happen!

Who decides that?

[Aexodus]

Ok seriously what part of that convention makes it okay for some to break the law (refugees) and not others? Why should they get preferential treatment?

[The spartan]

For the same reason you wouldn’t just let any stranger live in your house. sure most would be fine, but some aren’t. Without checks you don’t know who is and isn’t a bad actor.

I mean, we have statistics. Illegal immigration in the US isn't new, and over the years we have not had large increases in violent crime, especially when focusing on the illegal immigrant demographic. Like, the US hasn't been becoming a worse country because illegal immigrants are here, at least on a general, measurable level.

[NorseThing]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/03/n...re-to-act.html

quote:-
The government was supposed to submit a plan to a federal judge in California on Thursday to reunite the families, but instead it told the A.C.L.U. to come up with its own plan, urging the group to use its “considerable resources and their network of law firms, N.G.O.s, volunteers and others” to accomplish the task, in a court filing that a lawyer for the A.C.L.U., Lee Gelernt, called “remarkable.”
U.S. District Judge Dana Sabraw held a hearing with both parties on Friday and said, “This responsibility is 100 percent on the government.”

It seems with further developments that the government is unwilling/unable to reunite the immigrant families with there children after separating them and hopes to rely on "volunteers" and perhaps the ACLU to do so , after they have caused the issue after there new practices. Judges found the decision to return the children "unacceptable" and saying that it was "100% the responsibility of the administration" ....So for those of you , who argued that the trump administration had things, all in hand after there new adopted policies of trump, take a bow {sarcasm}, for who knew it was so hard to return children to there parents..[adopting trump handwave] who knew?



quote [from ny times article]:-
Eight children are expected to get on a plane in New York on Tuesday, headed to Guatemala. There, they will be reunited with their parents who were deported ahead of them, after being separated by the Trump administration at the southern border.

Their flight was arranged by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, known as ICE, but the reunion effort for children whose parents were deported is not being led by the federal government, which divided the families in the first place. Instead, it has fallen to volunteers, activists and lawyers around the country who have scoured birth certificate registries in Central America, passed names to elected officials and coordinated with groups there who have run radio ads to find parents who might be in Guatemala’s remote mountain villages.

I seem to remember a time , when America was lead by go-getters who would achieve wonders , performing even the impossible ,when the will was there , now it seems they cant even organise returning a few hundred children.....Alas, it seems there seems little will these days , in these dark times in America , except to use the immigrants for blame , for there own political problems .

The problem is a bit related to catching the cattle after the barn door was left open. It is hard, if not impossible to track down every person deported and no longer under any sort of jurisdiction of the USA. The idea that the ACLU should help with resolving the problem is partially also what the ACLU is doing by cooperation with the government and comparing notes on where these people are located. This is disorganized reunion. That is primarily because is the past, once deported the people were never assumed to need to be contacted by the USA government. They were out of the country. Gone. Vanished for all practical purposes. Now we want a system that tracks and reconnects with the deported. Creating such a system after the fact is itself a mess. Those critical of this also know this to be true. The number are getting smaller as time goes on though.

The problem is more of the story no longer being reported hour by hour. This is the most recent story line I could find and it is about a week old now: https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/im...-about-n895946

Some of the reunion problems may be because the parents crossed at different times from the children. So there is also the problem of establishing the relationships as well.

[PointOfViewGun]

Ok seriously what part of that convention makes it okay for some to break the law (refugees) and not others? Why should they get preferential treatment?

Article 31 outlines that you can not expel a refugee that have entered your country unlawfully. The reason for this treatment is the fact that they're refugees.

[Infidel144]

Article 31 outlines that you can not expel a refugee that have entered your country unlawfully. The reason for this treatment is the fact that they're refugees.

Is there any provision or condition laid on the person claiming refugee status in the article?