Marian Legionaries worse than Principes (Late)?

[scipioafrianus]

After the Marian reforms I can no longer build Principes (Late) but instead Marian Legionaries. But Marian Legionaries have significant worse stats, while only being very slightly cheaper than Principes (Late), the difference in price is just 2% it seems. I am wondering whether this is intentional and if so what is the explanation behind? I was happy when the Marian Reforms happened because I thought my army would become better, but it seems it is for the worse? The legionaires though does have the testudo formation, while Principes (Late) can't do that, so I guess that could be a significant advantage.

EDIT: Ah, just noticed that legionaries have markeldy better stamina, that is hugely important I have to admit. Might just be more than enough to justify the large reduction in melee att/def. I am wondering though how exactly it is explained that lower att/def gives higher stamina? Shouldn't it be lower armour (less heavy) that give higher stamina?

[GMFH]

After the Marian reforms I can no longer build Principes (Late) but instead Marian Legionaries. But Marian Legionaries have significant worse stats, while only being very slightly cheaper than Principes (Late), the difference in price is just 2% it seems. I am wondering whether this is intentional and if so what is the explanation behind? I was happy when the Marian Reforms happened because I thought my army would become better, but it seems it is for the worse? The legionaires though does have the testudo formation, while Principes (Late) can't do that, so I guess that could be a significant advantage.

Marian legionaries draw from the proletarian (3rd) population class, while principes (late) draw from the plebeian (2nd) population class.

[Little Legionaire]

Marian legionaries draw from the proletarian (3rd) population class, while principes (late) draw from the plebeian (2nd) population class.

What matters most is the training they had not their social class. Lower class citizens are low quality soldiers idea is simplification of a very complex situation. Even the modern armies draw their majority of human source from lower classes. Roman military machine even the perfect example of making good soldiers from varied classes of society.

However, this is a game and there's a unit balance. It's totally different subject to discuss. And it's all up to the devs make such decisions.

[Goffredo85]

You would find the answer in history itself. In the manipular republican legions the citizens were sorted for their experience in battle and for their personal wealth, as equipment was not provided by state as in later times. Principes were men in the prime of their life who would have already seen action in precedent campaigns, so they were not green recruits. After the marian reforms the military service moved from compulsory to voluntary and was opened to every citizen, even the propertiless ones normally not elegible for miliatry service under the precedent system. This means that a mass of able bodied youths with no precedent fighting experience and no money flocked to the army, hence the change in population class too. So, long story short, i think that the difference in stats is the way the DEI team represented the difference between a unit comprised of experienced and wealthy fighters vs a unit composed of unexperienced state armed and trained fighters.

[JCB206]

It seems to be done that way for gameplay reasons. Roman armies and soldiers during the Marian reforms were better and better paid. The Roman Polybian soldiers were the lowest paid quality troops in antiquity. That combined with their huge manpower and elan to fight for the state, they were a steam roller that was too much to stop.

I have all the ancient figures for the cost to maintain and pay soldiers in antiquity for Roman, Carthage, and Hellenic factions. I spent many, many hours of research into this for this game and a possible thesis.

But for Marian reforms to be put into perspective, the team would have to nerf the Roman units, but make them very cheap.

In gameplay terms, the team had used a balanced way of showing it.

[scipioafrianus]

Ok cool, thanks for the answers all! I'll just have to put those legionaires into some battle action and see how they perform. If the extra stamina makes them fresh significantly longer in battle I think it will be worth it.

[KAM 2150]

We are brainsotrming for some ideas on slightly improving Romans without buffing up their stats so there might be some more stuff for those Marian and Imperial Legionares. But yeah, currently the idea is that you get access to a lot bigger population pool but their combat skills are between Hastati/Principes, on the other hand, I think current Principes are a bit too strong in terms of melee attack.

[Sonny WiFiHr]

Triari - Principes price and upkeep are almost same. Slingers (Sicilian i think) armour 1 (shields), Roman (accensi) 1 - no shield. Velites 1 (not sure about them). This is what I can recruit if i find more I will post on BUG forum

[KAM 2150]

Shields are not adding into unit armour as there is no armour from shields.

[Kolaris8472]

I don't think Principes are too strong, but it would be interesting if Hastati had an upside besides Stamina. My understanding is that they engaged more aggressively than the Principes did.

[gornoviceanu]

In a lot of societies it was quite natural that the best soldiers came from the upper noble/very rich society. The sons of these men had access to everything from training with veterans to proper nutrition and time to develop as a soldier.

A lower class of society would still have a trade to do to earn a living while most noble men just spent time training. The potential might be there for all, but the way society worked back then (especially "barbarians" or Hellenic factions) meant a lot of noble men were the elite soldiers of the time.

[Daergar]

I don't think Principes are too strong, but it would be interesting if Hastati had an upside besides Stamina. My understanding is that they engaged more aggressively than the Principes did.

They were a bit younger, had less fancy equipment and were the first in after the skirmishing. Since they were not expected to win the battle on their own they could, as you say, afford to go in hard and stab themselves to exhaustion before the veterans walked in and gave the enemy the final push.

Except slightly higher stamina and lower upkeep cost, I'm not sure I follow the reasoning behind the younger and less experienced troops having upsides compared to the veteran equivalent?

[scipioafrianus]

I also just noticed that the "throw pila" ability is categorised as "medium" for Legionaires, while being only "light" for principes. So if that means that legionaires use heavier and more damaging pila than the principes, this is obviously also a notable advantage.

[Kolaris8472]

Except slightly higher stamina and lower upkeep cost, I'm not sure I follow the reasoning behind the younger and less experienced troops having upsides compared to the veteran equivalent?

To encourage players to use them when they could afford to field purely Principe. Personally I stick to a historical army composition no matter what, but if we're entertaining the idea that Principe are too good, it probably stems from players that field far more of them than would be natural.

[Meraun]

To encourage players to use them when they could afford to field purely Principe. Personally I stick to a historical army composition no matter what, but if we're entertaining the idea that Principe are too good, it probably stems from players that field far more of them than would be natural.

This, max. 10 Roman Citizen Cohorts per Army. My camillian army is 5 Hastati (1st line), 3 Roman Principes, 2 Socii Principes(2th line), 2 Triari (3rd line), 1 Equites 2x Socii Equites, 1 1x General.
The rest is Auxilliaries. Mostyl Sardinian Archers...

[Dardo21]

I only use hastati until the polyb reforms and even then I only use about 2, to have a weak center, apart from that I use 3-5 principes and 4-5 triarii, with atleast 1 of each being socii and using only socii for my cav.

[Franco_Nico]

I think legionaries being slightly worse than Principes is a great idea and make sense. Considering Hastati were 1 and Principes were 2 one would expect a unit that combines them to be the average of both (1.5 let's say).