Is Germany suffering from extreme Nazi guilt?

[DaVinci]

@ KEA

http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2011-0...nstaaten-rente

(one of the many possible related ones, if one google-seaches for it)

[fkizz]

fkizz, calm down, please. Emotional reaction does not help your point.
Language barrier is a real thing.
That several news-institutions make their own "translations" and interpretations of speeches is a real thing.

He already shows obvious by-default disaproval towards non-German speakers which is my case, so you take the dance if you want.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

TWC is an English board

Still you have my thanks, DaVinci. From your (german) source;

Euro crisis : Merkel's fairy tale of the lazy Portuguese

[KEA]

He already shows obvious by-default disaproval towards non-German speakers

And again you make things up and are attacking me personal. I see that this your style but a behavior like that usually is not accepted on English boards.

Still you have my thanks, DaVinci. From your (german) source;

Not sure why you thank him for that because it's the next German paper that says Portuguese are not lazy. The claim you are asked to proof here was that German press keeps on calling Portuguese lazy. Just in case you think that in this text there is a Merkel speech in which she calls you lazy: no, she said people in Greece and Portugal do retire earlier than in Germany, where she was correct for Greece but mistaken for Portugal.

Live with that, you are alone responsible for the sorrow state of your lands after decades of European peace and prosperity. When you wish to know where the billions of € went to that are now missing in your coffers, do ask your own government and stop pointing on Berlin. We had been financing your corruption, incompetence and laziness the last thirty years. And now again we had been paying for your whole shop going down the river (78,000,000,000.00 € in case of Portugal, IRRC. We are talking about the money me, my wife, my parents, my neighbors and so on are paying every month in taxes). The least thing we could expect was some kind of gratefulness - and not demonstrations against us and being called names. I am pretty confident that this was the last time that a German government will have done so, because another round of saving bankrupt states most likely will not be accepted by the German voters after what had happened this time. That's something I am looking foreward to (and it can't take too long giving your historical record): Greece, Spain and Portugal being kicked out of the EU, with a currency not worth the paper it is printed on and not even the Mafia willing to lend you money. And then you will have reasons to complain.

[fkizz]

Live with that, you are alone responsible for the sorrow state of your lands after decades of European peace and prosperity.

I never claimed otherwise. A true Nationalist/Patriot must wish such to be the case, even when it isn't.

When you wish to know where the billions of € went to that are now missing in your coffers, do ask your own government and stop pointing on Berlin. We had been financing your corruption, incompetence and laziness the last thirty years.

Thanks for admiting what I was saying, it's the pleasure of the detective.
Financing implies having profit back, or in KISS, having more revenue than costs. You're basically complaining Portugal stopped being profitable. That said, if you bothered to see my alignement, I'm not pro-EU nor pro the way Merkel handled things in Euro-crisis, nor pro-Euro.

Change it to 2001-1999 and we may have a deal. You folks didn't seriously finance us before the euro currency.. Thirty is pushing the line, unless you start counting by Maastrisch Treaty in 1992, but there was no such big scale investment by then.

The least thing we could expect was some kind of gratefulness - and not demonstrations against us and being called names.

We were the south european country to have less demonstrations agaisnt Germany.. We did have many Portuguese vs Portuguese Brawls. Now don't confuse us with Spain.

I am pretty confident that this was the last time that a German government will have done so, because another round of saving bankrupt states most likely will not be accepted by the German voters after what had happened this time. That's something I am looking foreward to (and it can't take too long giving your historical record): Greece, Spain and Portugal being kicked out of the EU, with a currency not worth the paper it is printed on and not even the Mafia willing to lend you money. And then you will have reasons to complain.

Seems we are in agreement but for opposite reasons! Seems discontent towards Merkel is rising by the day..

And in terms of country apreciation: Portuguese speaking sphere often offered refugee to German-speaking people before and after WWII, new homes. Don't you feel minimal gratitude for your Prussian cousins living in our ex-Colonies being offered a means of life rather than being butchered by the War?

PS - On "lack of gratitude and protests": most of Portuguese protests were against our Government atitude rather than Germany, and showing German culture apreciation/admiration is seen as self evident in our daily life. If you're looking for anti-Germanicism, I'm afraid you took the wrong country. Take that as you want.

[KEA]

Thanks for admiting what I was saying, it's the pleasure of the detective.

I am neither writing for a German paper nor am I Merkel in person. So, when I call you lazy you still owe us the proofs you had been asked for the last two weeks.

Financing implies having profit back, or in KISS, having more revenue than costs. You're basically complaining Portugal stopped being profitable. That said, if you bothered to see my alignement, I'm not pro-EU nor pro the way Merkel handled things in Euro-crisis, nor pro-Euro.

No, "financing" means state-backed upped credits not being returned for which you demand others to pay for them now.

Change it to 2001-1999 and we may have a deal. You folks didn't seriously finance us before the euro currency..

Okay, if you insist then change that to the money you not wasted in thirty years but in ten years. Anything better then?

We were the south european country to have less demonstrations agaisnt Germany..

"less" is still more than "none".

And in terms of country apreciation: Portuguese speaking sphere often offered refugee to German-speaking people before and after WWII. Don't you feel minimal gratitude for your Prussian cousins living in our ex-Colonies being offered a means of life rather than being butchered by the War?

Did you just claim Brazil offering refuge for people persecuted by fascist regimes while Portugal was ruled by Hitler-fan Salazar as a Portuguese achievement? Jesus!

[fkizz]

I am neither writing for a German paper nor am I Merkel in person. So, when I call you lazy you still owe us the proofs you had been asked for the last two weeks.

DaVinci offered some, and your atitude which one can easily see in other Germans speaks for itself. I'm giving you a favour here to not bury yourself more.

No, "financing" means state-backed upped credits not being returned for which you demand others to pay for them now.

False.
Financing can be either private or public and often implies have a return on investment. Basically Portugal stopped being profitable to plunder and that's where the Whining began.

Okay, if you insist then change that to the money you not wasted in thirty years but in ten years. Anything better then?

I don't think you're well studied into affairs of Portuguese Treasury. I do agree money was badly invested but for reasons different from yours.

Did you just claim Brazil offering refuge for people persecuted by fascist regimes while Portugal was ruled by Hitler-fan Salazar as a Portuguese achievement? Jesus!

CPLP isn't that different from english commonwealth. Having 210+ million Portuguese speakers worldwide does have its Weight so to speak.
Don't forget Fascist German WWII Leader was not german, but austrian (still German speaker). Aren't you throwing the credit to Austria by such logic?

PS - Salazar was not a Hitler-fan. Salazar wasn't Germanicist, neither allied Fascist Germany in WWII.

[DaVinci]

@ fkizz

DaVinci offered some,

...completely wrong. Don't know how one can adress such an idea, when an article uses a word "lazy" in its headline, but makes otherwise clear, that Merkel is wrong with her claims, plus that Merkel herself, as i stated before, didn't use the word "lazy" herself, she just compared certain statistics, which have been analysed/corrected in the article.

It is exactly, what i tried to explain to you, fkizz, in my former post about press translations/interpretations, what you don't wanna see. My source is proof for what i have written before and that KEA asked for a source.
Really, really confusing why you continue with your strange claim about Merkel insulted the Portuguese folks as "lazy" wordely, again, she didn't.
If single other people call Portugueses "lazy", then it is another case, Merkel didn't, get that.

We have obviously here a class example of how people, here fkizz, misinterpretes the press (media) in our post-factual world. Kinda populism at its best, imo..

[KEA]

Okay, you won. Of course Salazar was a die-hard Socialist. And yes, every second week Merkel holds a four-hour speech in front of 30,000 fanatical christian democrats in Nürnberg, where she does nothing but boasting about the laziness of other Europeans. These speeches are printed verbatim in every German paper and to be learned by heart by every school-kid. In order to not have these things being known to the rest of the world, it is strictly forbidden to publish it online, along with the salty comments. Only the investigative Anglo-Saxon press was able to leak it outside.

Any financially problems in Greece, Spain, Portugal, or wherever in the world, is only caused by Germany stealing quadruple the amount from said countries' treasury. As every sane person knows, no one works as hard as Southern Europeans, while the German way of living usually is associated with the terms "fiesta" and "siesta".


Proofs can easily be found on the internet, for example here, here, also here, and of course here.

[Knight of Heaven]

Salazar was not a Hitler-fan. Salazar wasn't Germanicist, neither allied Fascist Germany in WWII.

Well he was a fan of Mussolini tough, and quite a Friend of Franco, and he had a thing for Italian fascism.
In fact the "Estado Novo" his regime was strongly inspired on Italian fascism.
And Salazars Portuguese youth modeled after hitlers, and Mussolini youth. There is that.

Portugal neutrality in WWII has nothing to do with it. Germany was an important comercial partner for Salazar, and his regime was more closer to the fascist regimes in Europe at the time (like in Germany, in Italy, and in Spain), then it was in comparison to any of the Alied nations.

Just think this should be mentioned.

Any financially problems in Greece, Spain, Portugal, or wherever in the world, is only caused by Germany stealing quadruple the amount from said countries' treasury. As every sane person knows, no one works as hard as Southern Europeans, while the German way of living usually is associated with the terms "fiesta" and "siesta".

Siesta, are knowned to increase productivity.

If you doubt ask the Chinese.

As of fiesta, what you dont have it in Germany?
Then you are free to spend you holiday money in the south. I hear Portugal is in vogue nowadays

[Ludicus]

...And Salazars youth modeled after hitlers youth..Just think this should be mentioned

Good post. The "Portuguese Youth" was inspired by the Italian fascism that emerged in Portugal during the early 1920s. The membership was mandatory between the ages 7 to 14, and voluntary up to the limit of 18 years age. The objective was to to instil respect for authority, order, discipline and military value.
Above all, the trinity "God, Motherland, Family" (does it ring a bell, Hungary?)
Btw, Salazar declared three days of national mourning after Hitler's death.

Its seems that a few of us have not forgotten it. Here,check the pictures. A picture is worth a thousand words, right?

[DaVinci]

Well he was a fan of Mussolini tough, and quite a Friend of Franco, and he had a thing for Italian fascism.
In fact the "Estado Novo" his regime was strongly inspired on Italian fascism.
And Salazars Portuguese youth modeled after hitlers, and Mussolini youth. There is that.

Portugal neutrality in WWII has nothing to do with it. Germany was an important comercial partner for Salazar, and his regime was more closer to the fascist regimes in Europe at the time (like in Germany, in Italy, and in Spain), then it was in comparison to any of the Alied nations.

Just think this should be mentioned.


Siesta, are knowned to increase productivity.

If you doubt ask the Chinese.

As of fiesta, what you dont have it in Germany?
Then you are free to spend you holiday money in the south. I hear Portugal is in vogue nowadays

More seriously, just the Siesta-"culture", if one wants so, is derived from climatological backgrounds, facts just as that certain hours of the day cannot be used sensefully for work outside under the sun in certain latitudes.
This also as info to KEA ... btw. i don't share a lot of his here expressed views (and i'm German).

[fkizz]

Good post. The "Portuguese Youth" was inspired by the Italian fascism that emerged in Portugal during the early 1920s. The membership was mandatory between the ages 7 to 14, and voluntary up to the limit of 18 years age. The objective was to to instil respect for authority, order, discipline and military value.
Above all, the trinity "God, Motherland, Family" (does it ring a bell, Hungary?)
Btw, Salazar declared three days of national mourning after Hitler's death

Well Salazar was a Fascist with backing of Catholic Church, never claimed otherwise. He possibly had more in common with Mussolini than with Hitler, for Salazar was not very Racialist minded, given his statements on natives of African colonies..

However
1) He (Salazar) got Neutrality for Portugal in WWII
2) He didn't ally with either Germany or Italy or any Fascist faction during WWII

That's very, very important. Shows that Pragmatism > Ideology once more.

Well he was a fan of Mussolini tough, and quite a Friend of Franco, and he had a thing for Italian fascism.
In fact the "Estado Novo" his regime was strongly inspired on Italian fascism.
And Salazars Portuguese youth modeled after hitlers, and Mussolini youth. There is that.

Salazar never trustred Franco. I remember reading a book which I ended up not buying in a whim (I regret that now), that detailed Portuguese spies finding out details of a possible Spanish invasion of Portugal under Franco. On the others, he possibly mimicked them, including Imperial Japan Fascism. Fascism was the Fashion of back then.

But Hitler Germanicist conclusions with Thule Society mystics in late game would end up incompatible with "God, Family, Country" motto of Salazar, given God refered to Christian Church.

[KEA]

This also as info to KEA ...

Just to make that clear: my last post wasn't meant seriously but as an unconditional surrender to someone who “discusses“ on a board by completely ignoring anything not only others have answered, but even his own writings when they somehow don't fit his POV of the day.

[swabian]

The 'political class' feigns to care (rituals are meaningful, mind you) and the majority of the population is completely oblivious of it. I'm not certain what thrills me more, the ignorance of my people or the horrors that actually did happen.

[DaVinci]

Just to make that clear: my last post wasn't meant seriously but as an unconditional surrender to someone who “discusses“ on a board by completely ignoring anything not only others have answered, but even his own writings when they somehow don't fit his POV of the day.

Don't worry, that was obvious.

The quoted comment was meant about a few reflections you did about Portugal, its role as EU member.
Else, i agree with you that fkizz likes to post ... "stubbornly" about the Merkel-Portugal thing.

[Knight of Heaven]

More seriously, just the Siesta-"culture", if one wants so, is derived from climatological backgrounds, facts just as that certain hours of the day cannot be used sensefully for work outside under the sun in certain latitudes.
This also as info to KEA ... btw. i don't share a lot of his here expressed views (and i'm German).

Yes im aware. I also know, it isnt a wide spread practise, as comon stereotypes present it. Actualy it isnt wide spread at all.

Salazar never trustred Franco. I remember reading a book which I ended up not buying in a whim (I regret that now), that detailed Portuguese spies finding out details of a possible Spanish invasion of Portugal under Franco. On the others, he possibly mimicked them, including Imperial Japan Fascism. Fascism was the Fashion of back then.

But Hitler Germanicist conclusions with Thule Society mystics in late game would end up incompatible with "God, Family, Country" motto of Salazar, given God refered to Christian Church.

Yes there is diferences, but a lot more similarities, then what not. Salazar model was cleary fascist or aiming to that.

Also Salazar didnt had no qualms in sending PIDE with Spanish prisoners to be excuted by Franco. He even had a PIDE special mensagenger to deliver correspondence in hand with Franco.

[fkizz]

Else, i agree with you that fkizz likes to post ... "stubbornly" about the Merkel-Portugal thing.

So much need to give importance on Kaiserine Merkel. Political dissidence towards the German head of the state can bring one trouble it seems?

it's common for Portuguese to brawl amongst themselves and not care/blame foreigners. No one cares about Germany as of now. Before it was mostly Portuguese vs Portuguese. It still is, be it Politics or Football. Don't put us in same bag as the Spanish?

So go ahead and keep defending what is real on your mind.

Yes there is diferences, but a lot more similarities, then what not. Salazar model was cleary fascist or aiming to that.

Also Salazar didnt had no qualms in sending PIDE with Spanish prisoners to be excuted by Franco. He even had a PIDE special mensagenger to deliver correspondence in hand with Franco.

I said several times Salazar regime was Fascist, what else do you want me to say. A Fascist regime that delivered Neutrality in WWII, but a Fascist one, yes.
And he didn't mind handing political prisioners for Franco to execute when they were Communists. Salazar never trusted Franco much even if for Geopolitical reasons.

[DaVinci]

So much need to give importance on Kaiserine Merkel. Political dissidence towards the German head of the state can bring one trouble it seems?

...

So go ahead and keep defending what is real on your mind.



...

Complete nonsense. "Dissidence" vs. the head of Germany is common practice, even tradition, within Germany itself.
But that's not the same as to insist on false information (as you like to do), it is also not the same as fe. obvious hyperbole (exageration) which is used in satire fe. in various political satire shows or magazines.

Here, again, the point has been, that you stubbornly distort reality (again, the media interpretation/translation theme), and you still seem to not admit it in the slightest.
Plus you obviously go on with your "us and them" thingy in that matter, laying smoke on items, making it diffuse.
Intentionally (along an agenda, just tactic) or unintentionally (along "i don't know it better")? Or something like both of these interpretations or something else? One cannot say it with certainty.

[fkizz]

Your above post had no logical content/coherence whatsoever asides from negative emotional charge because one dares to criticize the State and the Kaiserine "Holy" Merkel.

[Incontinenta Buttox]

I would suggest that the events of 2016 are not at all about returning to the past but more about avoiding a nasty looking future forced on European populations without their consent.