Coup attempt in Turkey.

[SorelusImperion]

I wonder how much Merkel is willing to bend to keep the Turkish deal on the table.

Quite a lot actually. Making it from a Communist Pioneer to Conservative Party Leader takes a lot of ... "flexibility".

She ís the kind of politician which has no ideals whatsoever. She is however much more grounded in reality than the likes of Erdogan so if she feels the wind is blowing from another direction she may change her course.

[Odenat]

You believe a movement supposedly led by a schizophrenic imam can take over large parts of many tools of the state (the police force, the military, education, judiciary, etc) as part of a plan executed over the course of 30 years. However, it's so hard to believe that Erdoğan couldn't orchestrate a tiny coup? I'm calling it tiny because of the amount of soldiers actually participated in it.

Do not forget thet Gulen movement is supported and maybe led by CIA. That guy is living at Pennsylvania with American state protecting him. American agents are always around his house.

And do not downplay Gulen saying he's schizophrenic. His schools trains the best minds at Muslim world. People are actually paying 1000s $ to send their children at his schools. CIA strategists help FETO to organize its movement from Central Asia to Africa. Do you know that at Libya, while almost everywhere is bombed and destroyed, Gulen schools continue to operate with the protection of all sides of the conflict?

Gulen is the new "Old Man of the mountain", controlling the governments of Muslim world and many African nations behind the curtains.

What did CHP do that goes against what I argue?

Just yesterday, they made a joint meeting with AKP at Taksim square! What more do you want them to do? Even HDP, Kurdish party, does not say Erdoğan staged the coup.

[PointOfViewGun]

Do not forget thet Gulen movement is supported and maybe led by CIA. That guy is living at Pennsylvania with American state protecting him. American agents are always around his house.

And do not downplay Gulen saying he's schizophrenic. His schools trains the best minds at Muslim world. People are actually paying 1000s $ to send their children at his schools. CIA strategists help FETO to organize its movement from Central Asia to Africa. Do you know that at Libya, while almost everywhere is bombed and destroyed, Gulen schools continue to operate with the protection of all sides of the conflict?

Gulen is the new "Old Man of the mountain", controlling the governments of Muslim world and many African nations behind the curtains.

I love how you ignore concrete discrepancies in what happened on 15th and 16th of July but you can so easily point the finger at CIA. You're dismissing one conspiracy theory with sizable proof against an other conspiracy theory with extrapolated tiny pieces of evidence.

He is schizophrenic. He even had treatment in a mental hospital before. To think that he has any real power or control over the community we call "Gülenists" is highly unlikely. It's more likely that it's controlled by a group of businessman.

Just yesterday, they made a joint meeting with AKP at Taksim square! What more do you want them to do? Even HDP, Kurdish party, does not say Erdoğan staged the coup.

There is a time for everything. It's not the right time for a party leader to go on TV and talk about how fake it was. It wouldn't be received kindly. Things have to calm down a little. Plus, for someone like an parliament member or a party leader to talk about such theories they need more concrete evidence, a video or sound record perhaps. For a while, they're not even voicing how AKP helped Gülenists reach this point of power too much. It's not the time for that. Anyone who knows a little bit of public relationship knows that it's not the right time. Just because it's true and just because you have to say it, doesn't mean people have to hear it now.

[Col. Tartleton]

That's like saying the Pope is insidiously running the West.

[Adar]

When approaching a complex topic I prefer to break things down into what I know, what I do not know and what this information may indicate. My own knowledge on Turkish politics are rather limited so I have mostly been listening and learning so far but this is my compilation so far.

What we do know about the timeline

• 9 PM. The coupists invited and seized Chief of the General Staff Hulusi Akar, commander of the Turkish Land Forces Salih Zeko Colak. Commander of the air force Abidin Ünal was also seized by a small force carried by helicopter who seized him at a wedding.
• 9 PM The "official" coup started with a message broadcasted by four soldiers seizing the state television
• [whatever] PM. Helicopters bombed special forces headquarters and police air force headquarters in Golbasi outside Ankara with 42 dead. The Türksat (state satellite company providing among other things pay-TV communication) head quarters was also bombed.
• [whatever] PM fighter jets where flying over Ankara and two bridges in Istanbul were occupied.
• 1147 PM Edogan left Marmaris but did not land at Atatürk airport until 2:50AM
• 1150 PM Soldiers occupy Taksim square
• [whatever] soldiers evacuate the Justice and Development party office in Istanbul.
• 1 AM Gunfire at Atatürk airport and tanks open fire at near the parliament and is also attacked from the air. One coupist helicopter is shot down.
• 3 AM the army state that they are in control over the air space.
• 4 AM two or three helicopters attack the hotel at Marmaris and 15 heavily armed men land to attack it. Soldiers also fire at a crowd that have responded to the occupation of the Bosphorous birdge.
• 4 AM Erdogan makes a speech blaming the Gülen movement for the coup attempt.
• 12:40 AM a Blackhawk helicopter arrives in Greece with soldiers applying for asylum.

What we know about the involved parties

• The military immediately responded to the coup and supported Erdogan.
• All political partiers immediately declared themselves negative to the coup.
• The Gülenists also declared themselves negative to the coup.
• The Gülenists are estimated to make up almost a third of the armed forces
• No general supported the coup after being seized by the coupists.
• There were 50 soliders occupying the Bosphous bridge, an unknown number of soliders were at the airport and an unknown number of soliders were used to seize important people. There were also 700 unarmed soliders surrendering at the headquarters along with 150 armed soldiers.
• 45 000 military officials, police officers, governors and civil servants have been arrested or suspended. This includes at least one prosecutor who have been dead for several months, 2700 judges, 15 000 teachers and all university deans.
• The coup has been used to declare a 3 month state of emergency that give Erdogan extraordinary power.
• Backlash against the coup mean that even people who did not previously support AKP and Erdogan support many of the extraordinary decisions made by Erdogan and AKP.

What we do not know

• What political faction did the coup makers actually support?
• What happened to the 14 naval vessels that were reported missing. Have they ever been missing and where is the commander of the navy admiral Veysel Kosele?

It is obvious that Erdogan and his followers where prepared for the coup and knew exactly what political opponents to strike out against after the coup. It is also clear that his political opponents were unprepared for the coup but immediately were sure that the coup was made by people they themselves would not support.

This does however no give us any sure knowledge of whatever the persons behind the coup considered themselves loyal to the AKP, any of the above mentioned parties or someone else entirely. Right now we simply lack the knowledge the to determine if this people where highly dedicated Erdogan supporters, really stupid Erdogan haters or a mixture of the two. What I would like to see would therefore be if some of our Turkish speaking members could take the time to start looking up the names of the dead coup-makers and their background.

From this we could draw some serious conclusions about what actually happened.

• If the identities of the dead are highly secret --> An indication that the authorities are hiding something.
• If the soldiers involved are conscripts with a diverse background and higher officers lean in a particular direction --> A poorly executed coup by people who seriously misjudged the situation and hoped that the coup would snowball if they got it started. We would however still be uncertain who was feeding the higher officers the information that encouraged them to make the attempt.
• Everyone is a Gülenist --> Gülenists did it.

[jo the greek]

Do we need a new forum for Erdogans pogrom?

[PointOfViewGun]

When approaching a complex topic I prefer to break things down into what I know, what I do not know and what this information may indicate. My own knowledge on Turkish politics are rather limited so I have mostly been listening and learning so far but this is my compilation so far.

What we do know about the timeline

• 9 PM. The coupists invited and seized Chief of the General Staff Hulusi Akar, commander of the Turkish Land Forces Salih Zeko Colak. Commander of the air force Abidin Ünal was also seized by a small force carried by helicopter who seized him at a wedding.
• 11 PM The "official" coup started at 11 PM, Helicopters bombed special forces headquarters and police air force headquarters in Golbasi outside Ankara with 42 dead. The Türksat (state televsion) head quarters was also bombed).
• 11 PM fighter jets where flying over Ankara and two bridges in Istanbul were occupied.
• 1147 PM Edogan left Marmaris but did not land at Atatürk airport until 2:50AM
• 1150 PM Soldiers occupy Taksim square
• 12 PM Four soldiers seize the state television to broadcast a message and evauates the Justice and Development partys office in Istanbul.
• 1 AM Gunfire at Atatürk airport and tanks open fire at the parliament and is also attacked from the air. One coupist helicopter is shot down.
• 3 AM the army state that they are in control over the air space.
• 4 AM two or three helicopters attack the hotel at Marmaris and 15 heavily armed men land to attack it. Soldiers also fire at a crowd that have responded to the occupation of the Bosphorous birdge.
• 4 AM Erdogan makes a speech blaming the Gülen movement for the coup attempt.
• 12:40 AM a Blackhawk helicopter arrives in Greece with soldiers applying for asylum.

What we know about the involved parties

• The military immediately responded to the coup and supported Erdogan.
• All political partiers immediately declared themselves negative to the coup.
• The Gülenists also declared themselves negative to the coup.
• The Gülenists are estimated to make up almost a third of the armed forces
• No general supported the coup after being seized by the coupists.
• There were 50 soliders occupying the Bosphous bridge, an unknown number of soliders were at the airport and an unknown number of soliders were used to seize important people. There were also 700 unarmed soliders surrendering at the headquarters along with 150 armed soldiers.
• 45 000 military officials, police officers, governors and civil servants have been arrested or suspended. This includes at least one prosecutor who have been dead for several months, 2700 judges, 15 000 teachers and all university deans.
• The coup has been used to declare a 3 month state of emergency that give Erdogan extraordinary power.
• Backlash against the coup mean that even people who did not previously support AKP and Erdogan support many of the extraordinary decisions made by Erdogan and AKP.

What we do not know

• What political faction did the coup makers actually support?
• What happened to the 14 naval vessels that were reported missing. Have they ever been missing and where is the commander of the navy admiral Veysel Kosele?

It is obvious that Erdogan and his followers where prepared for the coup and knew exactly what political opponents to strike out against after the coup. It is also clear that his political opponents were unprepared for the coup but immediately were sure that the coup was made by people they themselves would not support.

This does however no give us any sure knowledge of whatever the persons behind the coup considered themselves loyal to the AKP, any of the above mentioned parties or someone else entirely. Right now we simply lack the knowledge the to determine if this people where highly dedicated Erdogan supporters, really stupid Erdogan haters or a mixture of the two. What I would like to see would therefore be if some of our Turkish speaking members could take the time to start looking up the names of the dead coup-makers and their background.

From this we could draw some serious conclusions about what actually happened.

• If the identities of the dead are highly secret --> An indication that the authorities are hiding something.
• If the soldiers involved are conscripts with a diverse background and higher officers lean in a particular direction --> A poorly executed coup by people who seriously misjudged the situation and hoped that the coup would snowball if they got it started. We would however still be uncertain who was feeding the higher officers the information that encouraged them to make the attempt.
• Everyone is a Gülenist --> Gülenists did it.

The information you listed here is quite faulty.

• Jets started flying over Ankara starting around 22:05. Around the same time soldiers started blockading Istanbul's Bosporus bridges in one direction only.
• Türksat is not the state television. It's a satellite communication operator. It's satellite dish was attacked by a helicopter. However, that dish was not used for active communication for months.
• The parliament building was not bombed by tanks, but by jets. At most 4 bombs were dropped on or near it. One hit the roof with minimal damage, one hit one corner which was vacant at that time, and others fell around it.
• There was no real military response to the "coup" attempt. The "coup" jets continued to fly for hours. Some could even drop bombs as late as the dawn.

So on and on...

[DaVinci]

In accordance to Erdogan's fascist "campaign", something is running currently versus the theme EU-membership of Turkey, in solidarity with the turkish people who look for democracy.
One can sign a petition.

https://act.wemove.eu/campaigns/turkey

[PointOfViewGun]

In accordance to Erdogan's fascist "campaign", something is running currently versus the theme EU-membership of Turkey, in solidarity with the turkish people who look for democracy.
One can sign a petition.

https://act.wemove.eu/campaigns/turkey

I don't see EU, an union that actively helped Erdoğan's party win the elections, making any such move.

[Adar]

The information you listed here is quite faulty.

• Jets started flying over Ankara starting around 22:05. Around the same time soldiers started blockading Istanbul's Bosporus bridges in one direction only.
• Türksat is not the state television. It's a satellite communication operator. It's satellite dish was attacked by a helicopter. However, that dish was not used for active communication for months.
• The parliament building was not bombed by tanks, but by jets. At most 4 bombs were dropped on or near it. One hit the roof with minimal damage, one hit one corner which was vacant at that time, and others fell around it.
• There was no real military response to the "coup" attempt. The "coup" jets continued to fly for hours. Some could even drop bombs as late as the dawn.

So on and on...

I updated the post. I am not really interested in the timing of events but rather by who started it, how many who actually knew about the plan and why everything except the seizure of the top military commanders was a terrible mess. Do you know anything about the coupists killed in the coup attempt?

[PointOfViewGun]

I updated the post. I am not really interested in the timing of events but rather by who started it, how many who actually knew about the plan and why everything except the seizure of the top military commanders was a terrible mess. Do you know anything about the coupists killed in the coup attempt?

Timeline is pretty important though. It's easy to invent stories for the putschists. Some of them, probably a great portion, are likely just privates who had no knowledge of the plan. So, no need for a story for them.

[toprak7272]

Hello I'm from Turkey. I live in Ankara. I lived through it all night. İt was devastating.You can ask anything about what happened. Btw Gulen movement was started to grow with Erdogan.Then they couldn't share the money.

[Ziltoid]

Seems the aftermath of coup is turning very ugly.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...ed-failed-coup

Thousands of Turkish soldiers 'RAPED and STARVED' as punishment for failed Turkey coup

[Tureuki]

Honestly we don't give a about eu membership and the stance european media and officials takes alienates even a dissident like me. Regardless of the details, Turkey has faced a grave danger and right after that all westerners say how Erdogan is a tyrant and how Turkey should not be allowed in eu. Many even openly say they would like the coup to success, doesn't matter by whom its orchestrated and what results it would bring. They clearly only care about Erdogan's removal and not the welfare of Turkey.

[Mithradates]

Erdogan's removal would mean the future welfare of Turkey.

[Tureuki]

Thats not what you care about and you know it. Erdogan is an hard to tame hothead, thats why you want him removed, otherwise why wouldn't you care about the consequences of coup?

[Col. Tartleton]

I don't like his mustache.

[Adar]

Thats not what you care about and you know it. Erdogan is an hard to tame hothead, thats why you want him removed, otherwise why wouldn't you care about the consequences of coup?

It took Erdogan 13 years from becoming prime minister to seizing control over Turkey, he is an independent actor but he is far from a hothead. In general Westerners tend to prefer stable trading partners who do not rape their prisoners so obviously Erdogan is not the most popular guy in the west right now.

[Love Mountain]

It took Erdogan 13 years from becoming prime minister to seizing control over Turkey, he is an independent actor but he is far from a hothead. In general Westerners tend to prefer stable trading partners who do not rape their prisoners so obviously Erdogan is not the most popular guy in the west right now.

Erdogan will keep pushing the limits of Western indulgence until we are rightly outed as the world's biggest hypocrites. Every day we tolerate with Erdogan is a day that the critics are proven right.

[Exarch]

lol dunno about you guys but i'm loving the drama out here; erdog's calling out the yanks bro, says they have to give up their CIA asset and stooge else Incirlik airbase is gonna be getting an unwelcome visit from the islamists in erdog's camp