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Thread: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

  1. #1

    Default Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    This post contains my thoughts on the history of the TW franchise as I see it, along with some initial reflections on Warhammer and the future of the series. I am an avid enthusiast of the Total War series, having played off and on since Rome TW and have purchased every game with every available DLC. I have played many mods for the series and love the vibrancy and diversity of the TW community.


    When I first played the original Rome, I was stunned. The battles were so huge, so realistic (more or less), so tactical, and so immersive! This was a strategy game that combined turn-based, real-time, tactics, grand-strategy, and RPG elements. And for the first time a tactics game rivaled the more playful and arcade-like RTS games of the previous decade which had focused on economy and resource collection.

    Perhaps most impressively, Rome was historical (again, more or less), and I have appreciated that in every TW game's own unique way, each have clothed their respective eras with a perspective and an artistic vision. For me (a history enthusiast) the joy of history is not in rote memorization and banal regurgitation of trivial minutia, but in the creative and artistic experience of entering into the historical dialectic (if you will pardon my mystical Hegelianism). It is exhilarating to discover connections, tensions, and questions, allowing me to enter into an era and allow the era to speak into my own age.


    When Empire came along, I again was stunned. Naval battles? A new political system? And, most importantly, gunpowder weapons? Awesome! Of course, Empire had its problems. It was buggy, slow, often dull, unwieldy, and repetitive (darthmod fixed some of these issues, thankfully). And there were missed opportunities, notably the lack of any period music in the score (which remains a remarkably effective score for a video game, but some actual period music would've rounded it out nicely), and the lack of any real political reform mechanic (the president of the United States was essentially the same as the king of England). Also, settlements had subsidiary small towns that could be developed, but often there was only one choice and so developing became a "click chore." All in all Empire was magnificent, albeit broken.


    Empire's "expansion pack" game, otherwise known as Napoleon TW, was another step forward. Most impressive, Napoleon TW envisioned the smoke-and-blood filled air of the passionate upheaval in late-Enlightenment Europe that centered on the dynamic personality of Napoleon Bonaparte. New smoke effects were incredibly immersive, and the mini-campaigns focused on goals and events gave motivation and drive to the wonderful sandbox world of TW. And despite the linearity to the mini-campaigns, it envisioned a sense of inevitability that I believe many felt in Napoleon's age. Napoleon is most certainly coming; it is a question of how and when. One of my favorite examples of immersion in Napoleon is the advisor's speech at the beginning of England's campaign: "those godless revolutionaries in France..." Which of course is a witty reference to English conservatism in the 19th Century. These details were wonderful.


    Then came Shogun 2, possibly the most polished game in the series, although the least technically groundbreaking (with the exception of blood effects which were an excellent addition). Medieval Japan's battlefields and beautiful culture came to life in a sandbox that was as open-ended as Japan's history was. And Fall of the Samurai was a perfect expression of the questions plaguing Japan in the late 19th Century. Should Japan westernize? Is it inevitable?


    What a beautiful game. Despite its lack of real innovation, Shogun 2 was gorgeous and polished. Everything just worked; although I use darthmod often with Shogun 2, it is rather unnecessary. I like the enhanced effects and larger units that darthmod brings, but Shogun 2 vanilla on its own is more than satisfactory. Its technical similarity to Empire and Napoleon was more than forgiven as Shogun 2 was a pleasure to play. Perhaps the most polished aspect of the game were the fortress siege battles, in which pathfinding bugs and difficult maneuvering problems that plagued Empire and Napoleon, while still present in Shogun 2, were remarkably reduced and non-intrusive. Almost everything about Shogun 2 is flawless, unlike the following title.


    Following Shogun 2 was the gigantic, clumsy, beautiful, controversial Rome II. Unlike many people, I don't despise Rome II and actually play it more often than any other TW title. The Emperor Edition is not buggy and is quite immersive. Rome II's graphics are (in the end) very groundbreaking, envisioning an ancient world that is inhospitable, yet abundant in potential. The new political system (although not balanced and quite broken without mods) really pictures ancient republican and imperial Roman politics, reflecting the uncertain, ambitious, and back-stabbing personalities who inhabited it.


    The streamlining of Total War's mechanics were questionable at first (and remain controversial), but I finally feel that it wins over certain aspects of pre-Rome II mechanics (come on, do we really miss diplomats?). The focus on bonuses was at once immediately graspable and yet difficult to master. Lastly, the modding community really filled in where CA neglected to: unit mods, overhauls, and minor fixes are abundant. I wonder if I spend more time searching for mods than actually playing the game.


    But of course there were shortcomings, making Rome II hopelessly controversial. A horrendous release, DLC cash grabs, slow bug fixes, imbalances (e.g. Champions only have one useful and overpowered skill: Military Training), and some rather boring unit rosters created a game that never seemed to be finished, although it came close. I really hope that CA will develop a few final updates to Rome II, because it could be fantastic. But I probably hope in vain...


    Attila, Rome II's sequel, is breathtaking. The apocalyptic vision of the fall of Rome (complete with historically and exegetically appropriate references from St. John's apocalypse in game cut-scenes) is awe-inspiring. Even the historically-uninformed player can enter into the world of cultures that would soon become the fragmented mosaic of medieval Europe: a synthesis of Roman, Celtic, Gothic, Anglo, Saxon, Frankish, Norse, and even Hunnic culture and languages, all accompanying the sorrowful decay of untainted Greek and Roman culture.


    Attila is a fallen and improved Rome II. The world of Attila is falling apart, but the game is quite complete compared to its predecessor. The political system is overhauled and improved, balances made everywhere, and graphics improved in realism and detail. Also unit statistics are interesting in that they are balanced in such a way as to make battles unpredictable. Siege battles are improved as well: walls decay as sieges are prolonged, and defense mechanics like barricades are immersive and intelligent, albeit not balanced.


    A few obnoxious choices in game design come to mind, however. First, public order is affected by local food supply, and not global food supply like in Rome II. So every province must have agricultural buildings. On the one hand it reflects the era's agricultural prominence. On the other hand, it makes designing provinces a chore. Secondly, the reused assets (especially in voice acting) is cheap. I got tired of Germanic and Celtic tribal leaders having the same things to say in diplomatic conversation as in Rome II. Lastly, the representation of Christianity as polarized east/west is misleading and anachronistic (the Pope in Rome and the Patriarch at Constantinople were in communion at the time), as well as stupid (East and West always end up at war with each other, regardless of the obvious religious and cultural similarities).


    The Age of Charlemagne, Attila’s renowned expansion campaign DLC, had great potential, and is really quite fun. However, it lacks the immersion of any previous game. Reused assets are everywhere. Buildings on the campaign map make no difference in battles, as the building assets are reused from Attila. Units have models and textures taken from vanilla (not to mention the lazily crafted rosters which are so small as to make technological progress seem useless). This use of old assets is again a problem in Warhammer. Voice-acting, fauna and flora (some suspiciously similar to Rome II assets), UI design, sound effects are reused, and new assets are rare.


    But first an overview. Warhammer is the first fantasy game in the TW franchise. I didn’t mind at all a divergence into fantasy (although I pray it doesn’t entirely replace historical titles), and had high hopes for a new vision. Warhammer is a great choice, allowing TW to envision a world of larger-than-life characters, cities, armies, creatures, and terrain. Everything in Warhammer is overpowered, making the differences between the races and the gods they worship seem irrelevant. This is a world of gods (probably explaining why religion is an almost non-existent mechanic in Warhammer). The races actually reflect many aspects of almost-forgotten historical consciousness, a valuable aspect of fantasy’s literary value. It is not difficult to see the Empire as representing Rome (the color red, the Latin word “Rex,” or king, embroidered onto Karl Franz’s robe, the German cross reminiscent of the Holy ROMAN Empire’s cross, etc.), the vampire counts as Britannic tribes (strange deathly religion, unhospitable and otherworldly terrain, etc.), the dwarfs as Norse tribes (associations with mountains), and Chaos as the unstoppable apocalyptic onslaught of the Hunnic and Mongol (Steppe) hordes.


    My initial impression of Warhammer is a mixed bag. Positive impressions are that Warhammer seems to be a synthesis of many mechanics of previous titles: events and goals, politics, streamlined economy, focus on bonuses, etc. In addition, air units are an innovation, and diplomacy seems to work well. Magic seems to be a nifty feature (although I don’t have enough experience to say for sure). Faction leaders are finally as important as they should have been.


    But the negative impressions are many. First, Warhammer feels like a reskinned Attila and by extension Rome II. Usually in past titles the engine and UI are redesigned every two titles. But Warhammer is surprisingly similar to Rome II and Attila in UI and engine design. The engine really doesn’t have many new features (with the exception of underground maps and air units, but these new features seem grafted on, as opposed to the engine being redesigned like it felt between Shogun 2 and Rome II).


    Also, reused assets are more prevalent than I would hope for a brand-new game. Remember that Barbarian diplomatic voice-acting? Well, that’s exactly what dwarves sound like. The number of new assets is also disappointing. I felt that some smaller settlements don’t have dedicated maps (apparently the battles are fought miles away), but I’ve only played a few hours so I’m not certain. If this is true, I’m sure it saved CA a lot of money to develop appropriate town-models and maps.


    Animations are also extremely limited. While improved in that the 1v1 “duel” style of animations is reduced, we seem to have returned to the original Rome approach where units wildly wave their weapons about and enemies die. Why not develop a hybrid approach, including developing “duel” animations that involve more than 2 participants? The animations currently sloppy (with the exception of cavalry impact animations, which are VASTLY improved). Hopefully this will be improved with updates (especially a blood and gore update, which really improved Rome II and Atilla).


    Warhammer just has a disappointing lack of polish. Sound effects are not spatially-mapped well (units that are several yards away from the camera sound like they’re yelling into your ear). Graphics are buggy on my GTX960 (I know CA was working with AMD and that NVIDIA drivers are on the way, but still). Even on highest settings the graphics are disappointingly not very groundbreaking. There were moments in Attila when you felt as if you were there the graphics were so immersive, but in Warhammer the graphics are all inconsistent, boring, and coarse. For example, the color scheme is inconsistent (imagine a bright, primary-colored, cartoony Karl Franz as large as the incredibly detailed earth-toned tree he is hovering next to). Glints from armor and water, which helped make Attila look so realistic, are muted and disappointing. Even at 16x anisotropic filtering and highest texture settings, to me the units look about as detailed as Attila’s units, maybe even less. Most disappointingly, huge explosions from Empire’s artillery make no impact marks on the soil (we had this effect way back in Napoleon, why not have it now?).


    Also, the streamlining of the economy has gone too far. There are no more taxation settings. Campaign-map resources are little more than trade tariff income-generators (no really complex buffs or enablers of buildings, units, or technologies). I was easily able to learn within an hour or so the Empire’s building technology to build the (not an) optimized province in the capital province. You can easily build almost every Empire building in one fully developed province, making expansion seem useless. Also, even though the map feels gigantic, in reality it has much fewer settlements than I was expecting, but hopefully the world will be expanded in updates.


    In the end, after a couple of hours of gameplay I felt that Warhammer’s great vision is obscured in a mire of reused assets, graphics bugs, and boring design choices. But it could be great… I hope that updates will improve the game and make it as awesome as it promises to be. But why are fans being treated like beta-testers? Remember the good old days where games only needed one or two patches? In the end, I know Warhammer will be worth the wait once drivers, updates and DLC’s are released.

    What do you all think of these thoughts?

  2. #2
    M2TWRocks's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    Honestly, it just seems like you don't like the new game. I think the next TW historical releases will be more in line with previous historical titles, so let not your heart be troubled. But to my initial point that I think you just don't like the game, everything you argue against, possibly with the exception of the streamlining of economy, just seem like an issue of personal taste.

    For example, I personally feel like the units in Warhammer in no way resemble ATW units or just look like "reskinned" units. No way. What was an arachnarok spider reskinned from in Atilla? Or any of the other flying, monster, hero units, etc.? That's a pretty weak argument. You also mention voice acting - I love it! It finally sounds like it's not just a bunch of English dudes faking other nationalities. Animations, maybe. I rarely obsess over this, though. Lack of polish?! No way! This is the most polished release since Shogun II, which was probably the most polished of the lot. (And I've played them all.) Streamlined economy? To me this is an improvement. Again, personal taste.

    I've learned from years and years of anticipating, then playing, total war releases, sometimes you're just burned out on total war. If you've been playing Attila a lot, you may just need a break. I always stop playing any total war games about three months prior to a release so it's all fun and new again.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by M2TWRocks View Post
    Honestly, it just seems like you don't like the new game. I think the next TW historical releases will be more in line with previous historical titles, so let not your heart be troubled. But to my initial point that I think you just don't like the game, everything you argue against, possibly with the exception of the streamlining of economy, just seem like an issue of personal taste.

    For example, I personally feel like the units in Warhammer in no way resemble ATW units or just look like "reskinned" units. No way. What was an arachnarok spider reskinned from in Atilla? Or any of the other flying, monster, hero units, etc.? That's a pretty weak argument. You also mention voice acting - I love it! It finally sounds like it's not just a bunch of English dudes faking other nationalities. Animations, maybe. I rarely obsess over this, though. Lack of polish?! No way! This is the most polished release since Shogun II, which was probably the most polished of the lot. (And I've played them all.) Streamlined economy? To me this is an improvement. Again, personal taste.

    I've learned from years and years of anticipating, then playing, total war releases, sometimes you're just burned out on total war. If you've been playing Attila a lot, you may just need a break. I always stop playing any total war games about three months prior to a release so it's all fun and new again.
    Thank you for your thoughts. You're probably right about needing a break! I've logged far too many hours on TW the last few months than is good for me :-p

    I see your argument about re-skinned units. Most of the units really are new. I just felt that the game is not as different as Rome II was to Shogun II, Empire to Medieval II, etc. The engine is just really similar to Attila and Rome II. There are times when it just feels like an Attila mod.

    And of course this is all personal taste :-)

  4. #4
    M2TWRocks's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    Trust me on the three months thing. It works. Figured that out for myself a few releases back. (S2TW, maybe?) Take a break and play Warhammer in a few months - maybe wait for a dlc. If you're a total war fan, you'll find something to like about it. Also, try another race. I didn't have as much fun with the Dwarfs either. Cheers!

  5. #5
    Humble Warrior's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by linuxmineboy View Post
    This post contains my thoughts on the history of the TW franchise as I see it, along with some initial reflections on Warhammer and the future of the series. I am an avid enthusiast of the Total War series, having played off and on since Rome TW and have purchased every game with every available DLC. I have played many mods for the series and love the vibrancy and diversity of the TW community.


    When I first played the original Rome, I was stunned. The battles were so huge, so realistic (more or less), so tactical, and so immersive! This was a strategy game that combined turn-based, real-time, tactics, grand-strategy, and RPG elements. And for the first time a tactics game rivaled the more playful and arcade-like RTS games of the previous decade which had focused on economy and resource collection.

    Perhaps most impressively, Rome was historical (again, more or less), and I have appreciated that in every TW game's own unique way, each have clothed their respective eras with a perspective and an artistic vision. For me (a history enthusiast) the joy of history is not in rote memorization and banal regurgitation of trivial minutia, but in the creative and artistic experience of entering into the historical dialectic (if you will pardon my mystical Hegelianism). It is exhilarating to discover connections, tensions, and questions, allowing me to enter into an era and allow the era to speak into my own age.


    When Empire came along, I again was stunned. Naval battles? A new political system? And, most importantly, gunpowder weapons? Awesome! Of course, Empire had its problems. It was buggy, slow, often dull, unwieldy, and repetitive (darthmod fixed some of these issues, thankfully). And there were missed opportunities, notably the lack of any period music in the score (which remains a remarkably effective score for a video game, but some actual period music would've rounded it out nicely), and the lack of any real political reform mechanic (the president of the United States was essentially the same as the king of England). Also, settlements had subsidiary small towns that could be developed, but often there was only one choice and so developing became a "click chore." All in all Empire was magnificent, albeit broken.


    Empire's "expansion pack" game, otherwise known as Napoleon TW, was another step forward. Most impressive, Napoleon TW envisioned the smoke-and-blood filled air of the passionate upheaval in late-Enlightenment Europe that centered on the dynamic personality of Napoleon Bonaparte. New smoke effects were incredibly immersive, and the mini-campaigns focused on goals and events gave motivation and drive to the wonderful sandbox world of TW. And despite the linearity to the mini-campaigns, it envisioned a sense of inevitability that I believe many felt in Napoleon's age. Napoleon is most certainly coming; it is a question of how and when. One of my favorite examples of immersion in Napoleon is the advisor's speech at the beginning of England's campaign: "those godless revolutionaries in France..." Which of course is a witty reference to English conservatism in the 19th Century. These details were wonderful.


    Then came Shogun 2, possibly the most polished game in the series, although the least technically groundbreaking (with the exception of blood effects which were an excellent addition). Medieval Japan's battlefields and beautiful culture came to life in a sandbox that was as open-ended as Japan's history was. And Fall of the Samurai was a perfect expression of the questions plaguing Japan in the late 19th Century. Should Japan westernize? Is it inevitable?


    What a beautiful game. Despite its lack of real innovation, Shogun 2 was gorgeous and polished. Everything just worked; although I use darthmod often with Shogun 2, it is rather unnecessary. I like the enhanced effects and larger units that darthmod brings, but Shogun 2 vanilla on its own is more than satisfactory. Its technical similarity to Empire and Napoleon was more than forgiven as Shogun 2 was a pleasure to play. Perhaps the most polished aspect of the game were the fortress siege battles, in which pathfinding bugs and difficult maneuvering problems that plagued Empire and Napoleon, while still present in Shogun 2, were remarkably reduced and non-intrusive. Almost everything about Shogun 2 is flawless, unlike the following title.


    Following Shogun 2 was the gigantic, clumsy, beautiful, controversial Rome II. Unlike many people, I don't despise Rome II and actually play it more often than any other TW title. The Emperor Edition is not buggy and is quite immersive. Rome II's graphics are (in the end) very groundbreaking, envisioning an ancient world that is inhospitable, yet abundant in potential. The new political system (although not balanced and quite broken without mods) really pictures ancient republican and imperial Roman politics, reflecting the uncertain, ambitious, and back-stabbing personalities who inhabited it.


    The streamlining of Total War's mechanics were questionable at first (and remain controversial), but I finally feel that it wins over certain aspects of pre-Rome II mechanics (come on, do we really miss diplomats?). The focus on bonuses was at once immediately graspable and yet difficult to master. Lastly, the modding community really filled in where CA neglected to: unit mods, overhauls, and minor fixes are abundant. I wonder if I spend more time searching for mods than actually playing the game.


    But of course there were shortcomings, making Rome II hopelessly controversial. A horrendous release, DLC cash grabs, slow bug fixes, imbalances (e.g. Champions only have one useful and overpowered skill: Military Training), and some rather boring unit rosters created a game that never seemed to be finished, although it came close. I really hope that CA will develop a few final updates to Rome II, because it could be fantastic. But I probably hope in vain...


    Attila, Rome II's sequel, is breathtaking. The apocalyptic vision of the fall of Rome (complete with historically and exegetically appropriate references from St. John's apocalypse in game cut-scenes) is awe-inspiring. Even the historically-uninformed player can enter into the world of cultures that would soon become the fragmented mosaic of medieval Europe: a synthesis of Roman, Celtic, Gothic, Anglo, Saxon, Frankish, Norse, and even Hunnic culture and languages, all accompanying the sorrowful decay of untainted Greek and Roman culture.


    Attila is a fallen and improved Rome II. The world of Attila is falling apart, but the game is quite complete compared to its predecessor. The political system is overhauled and improved, balances made everywhere, and graphics improved in realism and detail. Also unit statistics are interesting in that they are balanced in such a way as to make battles unpredictable. Siege battles are improved as well: walls decay as sieges are prolonged, and defense mechanics like barricades are immersive and intelligent, albeit not balanced.


    A few obnoxious choices in game design come to mind, however. First, public order is affected by local food supply, and not global food supply like in Rome II. So every province must have agricultural buildings. On the one hand it reflects the era's agricultural prominence. On the other hand, it makes designing provinces a chore. Secondly, the reused assets (especially in voice acting) is cheap. I got tired of Germanic and Celtic tribal leaders having the same things to say in diplomatic conversation as in Rome II. Lastly, the representation of Christianity as polarized east/west is misleading and anachronistic (the Pope in Rome and the Patriarch at Constantinople were in communion at the time), as well as stupid (East and West always end up at war with each other, regardless of the obvious religious and cultural similarities).


    The Age of Charlemagne, Attila’s renowned expansion campaign DLC, had great potential, and is really quite fun. However, it lacks the immersion of any previous game. Reused assets are everywhere. Buildings on the campaign map make no difference in battles, as the building assets are reused from Attila. Units have models and textures taken from vanilla (not to mention the lazily crafted rosters which are so small as to make technological progress seem useless). This use of old assets is again a problem in Warhammer. Voice-acting, fauna and flora (some suspiciously similar to Rome II assets), UI design, sound effects are reused, and new assets are rare.


    But first an overview. Warhammer is the first fantasy game in the TW franchise. I didn’t mind at all a divergence into fantasy (although I pray it doesn’t entirely replace historical titles), and had high hopes for a new vision. Warhammer is a great choice, allowing TW to envision a world of larger-than-life characters, cities, armies, creatures, and terrain. Everything in Warhammer is overpowered, making the differences between the races and the gods they worship seem irrelevant. This is a world of gods (probably explaining why religion is an almost non-existent mechanic in Warhammer). The races actually reflect many aspects of almost-forgotten historical consciousness, a valuable aspect of fantasy’s literary value. It is not difficult to see the Empire as representing Rome (the color red, the Latin word “Rex,” or king, embroidered onto Karl Franz’s robe, the German cross reminiscent of the Holy ROMAN Empire’s cross, etc.), the vampire counts as Britannic tribes (strange deathly religion, unhospitable and otherworldly terrain, etc.), the dwarfs as Norse tribes (associations with mountains), and Chaos as the unstoppable apocalyptic onslaught of the Hunnic and Mongol (Steppe) hordes.


    My initial impression of Warhammer is a mixed bag. Positive impressions are that Warhammer seems to be a synthesis of many mechanics of previous titles: events and goals, politics, streamlined economy, focus on bonuses, etc. In addition, air units are an innovation, and diplomacy seems to work well. Magic seems to be a nifty feature (although I don’t have enough experience to say for sure). Faction leaders are finally as important as they should have been.


    But the negative impressions are many. First, Warhammer feels like a reskinned Attila and by extension Rome II. Usually in past titles the engine and UI are redesigned every two titles. But Warhammer is surprisingly similar to Rome II and Attila in UI and engine design. The engine really doesn’t have many new features (with the exception of underground maps and air units, but these new features seem grafted on, as opposed to the engine being redesigned like it felt between Shogun 2 and Rome II).


    Also, reused assets are more prevalent than I would hope for a brand-new game. Remember that Barbarian diplomatic voice-acting? Well, that’s exactly what dwarves sound like. The number of new assets is also disappointing. I felt that some smaller settlements don’t have dedicated maps (apparently the battles are fought miles away), but I’ve only played a few hours so I’m not certain. If this is true, I’m sure it saved CA a lot of money to develop appropriate town-models and maps.


    Animations are also extremely limited. While improved in that the 1v1 “duel” style of animations is reduced, we seem to have returned to the original Rome approach where units wildly wave their weapons about and enemies die. Why not develop a hybrid approach, including developing “duel” animations that involve more than 2 participants? The animations currently sloppy (with the exception of cavalry impact animations, which are VASTLY improved). Hopefully this will be improved with updates (especially a blood and gore update, which really improved Rome II and Atilla).


    Warhammer just has a disappointing lack of polish. Sound effects are not spatially-mapped well (units that are several yards away from the camera sound like they’re yelling into your ear). Graphics are buggy on my GTX960 (I know CA was working with AMD and that NVIDIA drivers are on the way, but still). Even on highest settings the graphics are disappointingly not very groundbreaking. There were moments in Attila when you felt as if you were there the graphics were so immersive, but in Warhammer the graphics are all inconsistent, boring, and coarse. For example, the color scheme is inconsistent (imagine a bright, primary-colored, cartoony Karl Franz as large as the incredibly detailed earth-toned tree he is hovering next to). Glints from armor and water, which helped make Attila look so realistic, are muted and disappointing. Even at 16x anisotropic filtering and highest texture settings, to me the units look about as detailed as Attila’s units, maybe even less. Most disappointingly, huge explosions from Empire’s artillery make no impact marks on the soil (we had this effect way back in Napoleon, why not have it now?).


    Also, the streamlining of the economy has gone too far. There are no more taxation settings. Campaign-map resources are little more than trade tariff income-generators (no really complex buffs or enablers of buildings, units, or technologies). I was easily able to learn within an hour or so the Empire’s building technology to build the (not an) optimized province in the capital province. You can easily build almost every Empire building in one fully developed province, making expansion seem useless. Also, even though the map feels gigantic, in reality it has much fewer settlements than I was expecting, but hopefully the world will be expanded in updates.


    In the end, after a couple of hours of gameplay I felt that Warhammer’s great vision is obscured in a mire of reused assets, graphics bugs, and boring design choices. But it could be great… I hope that updates will improve the game and make it as awesome as it promises to be. But why are fans being treated like beta-testers? Remember the good old days where games only needed one or two patches? In the end, I know Warhammer will be worth the wait once drivers, updates and DLC’s are released.

    What do you all think of these thoughts?
    Good review, and it`s clear you went to a lot of sensible and logical thought about it. Don`t be discouraged by others, you have the right to every word. Some cannot abide any critical thought of their new `baby`.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    For me coming into Warhammer I was mostly hoping that the battles would be fun again. I thought the additions to the campaign map were great but I also felt like as the series made more and more games the fun of the battles was diminishing. Especially sieges which were tedious when attacking and unfairly easy when defending. There was also a lot of them. So auto resolve became a crutch to make the game playable and challenging. I found myself auto resolving defensive sieges I knew I could probably win just because I didn't think it was fair that I would have won them. Not good.

    When I started playing Warhammer I felt like from the very first battle you have in each campaign the battles were more interesting and fun. If you don't have fun with your vargulf then I don't know what to tell you.

    I have played all the races at least a little bit and they all feel unique to me and in a more meaningful way than previous TW factions. The strengths and limitations of each race really help get me in the mindset of that particular race. When I play the dwarfs I am in constant fear of orc raiding parties. My tactical advantage also allows me to play somewhat defensively in battles. I am also more invested in trying to build up relationships with fellow dwarfs and establish trade deals. When I play orcs I feel like I need to be aggressive and constantly attacking to get the WAAARGHHH! army. In one campaign I had 4 or 5 of them up at once and I felt like an unstoppable green wave of destruction.

    Now when I build my armies I am actually really excited when I unlock a giant or a tank or a helicopter or a big flying monster. Now when I level up my hero I am excited to get that flying mount that will allow me command over the battle field. Or I can build a stack based on the hero buffing the units to be more effective. I also really like having heroes on the battlefield. Spells add a great new element to the game that changes the way I set up my armies when preparing for a fight or how I react to what is going on in a fight.

    When Chaos shows up in my campaign it really feels like a major event that has to be dealt with. Large stacks of enemies will start pouring down on you. The northern part of the map will see the chaos spread.

    Overall I am extremely happy with TWW and I have the most fun when the battles are fun. Most of my enjoyment in the last couple of TW games were on the campaign map. So I still like games with more complex city development but I think there is plenty of room in the TW series for both types of games. I like the sieges and I like the lack of sieges for smaller settlements. I have not noticed CA re-using a lot of assets but obviously they like certain voice actors. I have had seen little to no bugs in game.

    If there are bad things about the game I would say that the enemy armies running away from you too easily is high on my list. I also think the UI doesn't handle large armies well and towards the end of the game a lot of the fights involve large multi-stacked armies. The game itself can also get bogged down at certain points. I think the building choices could also be more interesting. Some of the quests could use some work so that they fit into the game better.
    Last edited by Stangler; June 02, 2016 at 10:26 AM.

  7. #7
    Comrade_Rory's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by linuxmineboy View Post
    Also, reused assets are more prevalent than I would hope for a brand-new game. Remember that Barbarian diplomatic voice-acting? Well, that’s exactly what dwarves sound like.
    Not really...
    I mean the Dwarfs in Warhammer have a Yorkshire/Lancashire type of accent whereas the "Barbarians" in Rome II and Atilla have some sort of Scandinavia or odd German (I think) accent.
    Maybe CA used the same voice actor, I don't know but there is a clear difference.

    And I'm not sure how else it would be. They could have gone with the Scottish accent that seems to be quite common for Dwarven characters these days but I'm sure others would have complained about that.

    Honestly, I've had nothing but bad things to say about CA for the past few years but this game has been so polished and so good, that it's the first TW game where I've completed a campaign since Empire. My faith has almost been restored in CA after this but it depends on how they handle the DLCs and the next full release.

  8. #8
    ♘Top Hat Zebra's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade_Rory View Post
    My faith has almost been restored in CA after this but it depends on how they handle the DLCs and the next full release.

    I am in the same boat. Honestly, it feels to me like CA has two teams, and this is the same team that made Shogun II, while Rome II and Attila were made by someone else entirely.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    @ TS: a very decent review. I look a bit more positive onto TW:Warhammer, but that's a matter of taste. I'm very much interested in military history and the TW games are very nice opportunities to play a litlle bit with it (when you accept the reality that they of course cannot simulate history). My preferred games are ETW and TW:Attila. TW:Warhammer is a nice alternative with another focus, it is not a substitution. I started with MTW and bought all followers (except NTW for some reasons).

    My biggest gripe with the series was the breakdown in the 2D art. I miss the times where you could click on a small unit picture and a ingame description with a bigger picture with a more or less realistic image of the unit appeared. I disliked the S2TW cards (but I disliked S2TW as a whole, for me it was a boring mini-campaign game and the TW game I played fewest of all). I hated the R2TW cards and, together with other problems, the pseudo-antique unit card style was the reason I did not play the game for nearly a year. And of course I did not buy any DLC because of this abstinence. Some guys creating realistically looking units cards (and the DeI mod) made the game playable and a fun at last. Which was good for CA too because I bought all DLCs at this stage.

    TW:Attila is better than R2TW and the best of the series for me (taste differs, of course). Luckily they came back with some decent 2D art, I also made a lot of unit cards myself for most liked or most used units. Attila made me even deal with the historical situation of late antiquity more which was not my favored time period prior. A lot of authors can be grateful to CA. Currently I'm reading "Barbarian Migrations and the Roman West, 376-568" by Guy Halsall and it's a refreshing look onto the timeframe. Attila has it's faults, especially the not so challenging CAI, but I can accept the limits of TW games. As always I play it in a modded form with slower battle speed etc., here with the great FotE mod among others.

    TW:Warhammer is ... interesting and a fun to play, still. What made me finally buy TW:Warhammer was the hint that there is some modability planned. With slower battle speed mods the game is acceptable. The campaign is challenging (I'm with the Empire on vh and it makes me sweat) although the toned down campaign features, f.e. building options are not to my liking. I'm not so obsessed with the 3D looks and animations here. I like to look at Attila battles, watching the warriors ripping off their bellies, I like the killing and death animations (not so much the ballet-like prolonged combat animations), sometimes getting a little feeling of the horrors of war, but in Warhammer it's not so important, it's fantasy with partly ridiculously looking monsters and magic (I'm obvioulsy not at all a Warhammer universe fan, I never took part in the franchise before), so there is a distance, I don't feel with my troops. Here it is more the fear what would what monster do and so, how can I counter it. It can keep the interest for a certain time.
    Last edited by geala; June 03, 2016 at 02:40 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Humble Warrior View Post
    Good review, and it`s clear you went to a lot of sensible and logical thought about it. Don`t be discouraged by others, you have the right to every word. Some cannot abide any critical thought of their new `baby`.
    I don't mind this new game but think there is flaws in it. This whole "everything was rosy and wonderful until Warhammer" is bollocks. I can understand people who don't like it, but the previous Total Wars had a huge amount of problems.

    Here's my thoughts from a Total War player.

    I started playing Total War with SHOGUN. It was a pretty decent game, and pretty fun. I cannot really remember what or who I played, or if I completed the game. Medieval Total War: Viking Invasion came along and I thoroughly enjoyed that for two reasons: the campaign was quite short but action packed. I completed a game as Scotland which was always good fun, as well as trying my hand with the Vikings and created a pagan Britain. Many friends also played that game (unlike any other Total War Game).

    Total War Medieval 2 came along, and it was okay. I don't think I completed it though as the campaign became a slog once you got too many provinces. I then picked up Total War Empire on a sale because I was stuck at home. I had a good time conquering most of Europe, but never actually completed it because the campaign got a bit boring after I fielded so many stacks. I picked up Rome II on sale, and nearly completed a game as the Iceni and the Parthians, but again, the amount of marching and micromanagement was insane. I ended up ignoring most of the provinces completely, occasionally building economic and public order buildings almost at random as I could not build troops quick enough to keep up with my income. With the Parthians, I did not even reach Europe. With the Iceni, Rome was split into four separate factions, that I could easily defeat. I played SHOGUN 2 as well, which is pretty enjoyable since the map was small enough to get round the micromanagement issues.

    Total War Warhammer, I haam playinh as the Greenskins and cannot work out whether I should bother completing that game before trying one of the other factions. I find the game probably close to Viking Invasion in terms of playability. I am ignoring some of my provinces (again) because I am not sure what I should do with them. I found raiding and looting mechanics good, and I actually like the fact I am stopped from being forced to stop expanding.

    In short, for those that remember Medieval Total War: Viking Invasion fondly, Total War Warhammer is a great game. For those that like the big long epics of Rome II, Warhammer is not for them. The epics never worked for me. I found there was no early game, mid-game, or late-game. E.g., fighting factions locally early-game and then empires mid to late-game. I found instead it was fight with some factions early game, and slowly subsume everything based on how quickly your armies can march.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    I think that seeing the medieval moddels they've used for warhammer the most probably is that the New title be medieval 3

  12. #12

    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    thats a whole lot of paragraphs that im not going to be reading too thoroughly. also you might have went a bit over the top with that attila praise my man. i dont remember anything particularly breathtaking or awe inspiring out of it, mostly boring and disappointing despite low expectations.

    i think its safe to say tww has been more enjoyable than any game ca has put out in recent memory even though im only around 15 hours into my dawi campaign. or maybe my love for wfb is clouding my mind.

  13. #13
    Incontinenta Buttox's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkus_Malorkus View Post
    I don't mind this new game but think there is flaws in it. This whole "everything was rosy and wonderful until Warhammer" is bollocks. I can understand people who don't like it, but the previous Total Wars had a huge amount of problems.

    Here's my thoughts from a Total War player.

    I started playing Total War with SHOGUN. It was a pretty decent game, and pretty fun. I cannot really remember what or who I played, or if I completed the game. Medieval Total War: Viking Invasion came along and I thoroughly enjoyed that for two reasons: the campaign was quite short but action packed. I completed a game as Scotland which was always good fun, as well as trying my hand with the Vikings and created a pagan Britain. Many friends also played that game (unlike any other Total War Game).

    Total War Medieval 2 came along, and it was okay. I don't think I completed it though as the campaign became a slog once you got too many provinces. I then picked up Total War Empire on a sale because I was stuck at home. I had a good time conquering most of Europe, but never actually completed it because the campaign got a bit boring after I fielded so many stacks. I picked up Rome II on sale, and nearly completed a game as the Iceni and the Parthians, but again, the amount of marching and micromanagement was insane. I ended up ignoring most of the provinces completely, occasionally building economic and public order buildings almost at random as I could not build troops quick enough to keep up with my income. With the Parthians, I did not even reach Europe. With the Iceni, Rome was split into four separate factions, that I could easily defeat. I played SHOGUN 2 as well, which is pretty enjoyable since the map was small enough to get round the micromanagement issues.

    Total War Warhammer, I haam playinh as the Greenskins and cannot work out whether I should bother completing that game before trying one of the other factions. I find the game probably close to Viking Invasion in terms of playability. I am ignoring some of my provinces (again) because I am not sure what I should do with them. I found raiding and looting mechanics good, and I actually like the fact I am stopped from being forced to stop expanding.

    In short, for those that remember Medieval Total War: Viking Invasion fondly, Total War Warhammer is a great game. For those that like the big long epics of Rome II, Warhammer is not for them. The epics never worked for me. I found there was no early game, mid-game, or late-game. E.g., fighting factions locally early-game and then empires mid to late-game. I found instead it was fight with some factions early game, and slowly subsume everything based on how quickly your armies can march.
    Good post,

    I also don't recall ever having completed a single-player campaign in any past Total War game, as the campaign just became a tedious grind once your faction became too large and powerful.

    My favourite TW game was always Medieval 2, as I had a lot of fun running hotseat campaigns with other forum users here. Some of these campaigns even got finished. This is one of the reasons why I do like Warhammer Total war so much. It's that campaigns are shorter, there is less unfun micro-management and more action.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Incontinenta Buttox View Post
    Good post,

    I also don't recall ever having completed a single-player campaign in any past Total War game, as the campaign just became a tedious grind once your faction became too large and powerful.

    My favourite TW game was always Medieval 2, as I had a lot of fun running hotseat campaigns with other forum users here. Some of these campaigns even got finished. This is one of the reasons why I do like Warhammer Total war so much. It's that campaigns are shorter, there is less unfun micro-management and more action.
    Yeah, modding scenarios in the multiplayer might be a worthwhile effort, like trying to defend the capital Empire province against waves of orcs (or just seeing how many waves you can handle as the get progressively more difficult).
    Last edited by Dorkus_Malorkus; June 03, 2016 at 12:28 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    Excellent post. Opened with a highly enjoyable homage to the series and finished with some very astute criticism of the new game.

    Overall, I'm enjoying Warhammer a lot, but that is notwithstanding the many valid points you make.

    The reuse of assets has gone too far and is beginning to seriously impact my enjoyment of the game. This is a "new" game, after all, though I sometimes have to remind myself it's not a fantasy version of Rome II at times

    Streamlining has also gone too far. I'm totally on board when annoying design features such as food, squalour and public order management are "streamlined" out of the game. I'm less happy when there's nothing more entertaining to replace them. Empire management is gradually receding into a shallow element in the series and that's a massive shame.

    I actually think the visuals and polish are pretty top notch - it's mostly just some macro gameplay design choices that are leaving me cold on occasion. Combat is woefully routine by this point, despite some great innovations like flying units and vehicles. The series needs a big shake-up with the next historical and I have a sneaking suspicion that the CA labs are cooking up something radical and fresh on the historical front. I sincerely hope they are because despite all the frills, the formula is beginning to wear thin by this point.

    The fantastical setting and the off-the-wall possibilities it brings is the saving grace of Warhammer - without these I daresay it be feeling a bit over the hill at this point! I can't deny I'm having a blast with this one, though.
    Last edited by Fredrin; June 09, 2016 at 08:25 PM.

  16. #16
    AnimaMea's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    Well put - esp. On Empire's soundtrack. All we got was the Corelli during loadscreens!

  17. #17

    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    Thanks for your thoughts everyone! I really have enjoyed reading through them. As you can tell I put quite a bit of time writing that review.

    At this point I haven't played much more Warhammer recently, as I'm kindof busy and waiting for better NVIDIA support. I'm feeling the itch to play more though...

    Also want to let everyone know that I've changed my name since I wrote the review. I was linuxmineboy, now I'm ScholasticusMusicus

  18. #18

    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkus_Malorkus View Post
    I don't mind this new game but think there is flaws in it. This whole "everything was rosy and wonderful until Warhammer" is bollocks. I can understand people who don't like it, but the previous Total Wars had a huge amount of problems.

    Here's my thoughts from a Total War player.

    I started playing Total War with SHOGUN. It was a pretty decent game, and pretty fun. I cannot really remember what or who I played, or if I completed the game. Medieval Total War: Viking Invasion came along and I thoroughly enjoyed that for two reasons: the campaign was quite short but action packed. I completed a game as Scotland which was always good fun, as well as trying my hand with the Vikings and created a pagan Britain. Many friends also played that game (unlike any other Total War Game).

    Total War Medieval 2 came along, and it was okay. I don't think I completed it though as the campaign became a slog once you got too many provinces. I then picked up Total War Empire on a sale because I was stuck at home. I had a good time conquering most of Europe, but never actually completed it because the campaign got a bit boring after I fielded so many stacks. I picked up Rome II on sale, and nearly completed a game as the Iceni and the Parthians, but again, the amount of marching and micromanagement was insane. I ended up ignoring most of the provinces completely, occasionally building economic and public order buildings almost at random as I could not build troops quick enough to keep up with my income. With the Parthians, I did not even reach Europe. With the Iceni, Rome was split into four separate factions, that I could easily defeat. I played SHOGUN 2 as well, which is pretty enjoyable since the map was small enough to get round the micromanagement issues.

    Total War Warhammer, I haam playinh as the Greenskins and cannot work out whether I should bother completing that game before trying one of the other factions. I find the game probably close to Viking Invasion in terms of playability. I am ignoring some of my provinces (again) because I am not sure what I should do with them. I found raiding and looting mechanics good, and I actually like the fact I am stopped from being forced to stop expanding.

    In short, for those that remember Medieval Total War: Viking Invasion fondly, Total War Warhammer is a great game. For those that like the big long epics of Rome II, Warhammer is not for them. The epics never worked for me. I found there was no early game, mid-game, or late-game. E.g., fighting factions locally early-game and then empires mid to late-game. I found instead it was fight with some factions early game, and slowly subsume everything based on how quickly your armies can march.
    Perhaps with upcoming DLC the map will be expanded and we will have the best of both worlds? A focused campaign (perhaps a "short campaign") like the one we see now, and a long campaign (perhaps similar to "world domination") that will make use of an extended map for those like me who enjoyed epic campaigns?

    As far as the "everything was rosy and wonderful until Warhammer," that is not at all what I intended to say in my review. I criticized many things about the older titles. Anyone who has put almost probably around 500 hours on steam total war games knows that every single TW title has had issues.

    I just hope that with DLCs CA can make this game as awesome as it promises to be. I hope interest and development doesn't peter out before it is perfect.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by sinuhe2 View Post
    I think that seeing the medieval moddels they've used for warhammer the most probably is that the New title be medieval 3
    I hope that if what you say is true they don't reuse those assets. I've had enough of that. It is time to redesign everything again in a way that is visionary, like in the past.

  20. #20
    Imperator Artorius's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Thoughts on history of TW and impressions of Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by ScholasticusMusicus View Post
    I hope that if what you say is true they don't reuse those assets. I've had enough of that. It is time to redesign everything again in a way that is visionary, like in the past.
    I don't suppose its not too much to ask for CA to get some proper decent voice actors. Its pretty mindblowing the difference in voice acting quality between Relic's Dawn of War series and TW, especially more recent ones.

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