The European Refugee Crisis

[KR153]

Just found this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdnLSC2hy9E
For non german speakers, he says from 0.35min:
"...this is a country worth living in and in which you have to stand for values and who doesn´t support that values is free to leave this country at any time. This is the freedom of each German. "
Either this is just poorly phrased or it means basically "shut up and go with the program". To me it sounds like the second. This exactly the behaviour that drives voters to the right, but maybe it´s what he secretly wants? What´s left of Voltaire´s " I despite your opinion, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it"?

[Lysimachus]

I can't quite comprehend how so many people can be so inhumane about refugees fleeing from war zones. like, if I'd had my house shelled I'd be on the first boat out.

[Heathen Hammer]

isnt it funny how most of the people who're pro refugee dont live in countries which actually have to house these so called 'refugees'?

at latest estimate, Germany now has to accept ~1.8 million refugees rather than the 800k they initially thought.
That's the equivalent of a city like Hamburg full of muslims into your own country

Most of the politicians who are so eager to accept them aren't doing it at their own expense either. Their "altruism" is funded by taxpayers, while there are multiple reports that majority of refugees are young men in their 20s/30s, which combined with reports that there may be a lot of members of terrorist cells going into Europe under the guise of "refugees" shows a very troubling picture. But then again, nothing the likes of Merkel have to be afraid of, after all she has bodyguards and isn't as likely to end up a victim of a terrorist attack, unlike the average Germans.

Also there is yet another case when one of the pro-immigration activists is attacked by a poor harmless refugee.
This is going to end up as a disaster and a source of major civil unrest or maybe even an armed conflict.

I can't quite comprehend how so many people can be so inhumane about refugees fleeing from war zones. like, if I'd had my house shelled I'd be on the first boat out.

The most "humane" thing that can be done is forcing Israel and Gulf states (who actually fund jihadists in Syria) to accept those refugees instead. Average Germans are not responsible for creation of those war zones, so those refugees shouldn't be their problem.

[swabian]

Isn't it funny how you just make up?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...pressures-show



Polls shift but your point - that Germans are against Merkel's policy, is dishonest.

Quite unfathomable how they can come up with such a blantant snow job. Its flat-out an undisputed fact in Germany that the majority of voters does NOT agree with merkels decision to ignore the Dublin treaty and explicitly that the majority clearly disagrees with Mommy Merkels "we can do it". On top of that, she's pretty much tearing apart her stinking governing coalition over the issue whilst flippantly stating "so what?".

[removeduser_487563287433]

Quite unfathomable how they can come up with such a blantant snow job. Its flat-out an undisputed fact in Germany that the majority of voters does NOT agree with merkels decision to ignore the Dublin treaty and explicitly that the majority clearly disagrees with Mommy Merkels "we can do it". On top of that, she's pretty much tearing apart her stinking governing coalition over the issue whilst flippantly stating "so what?".

Much claim, no source.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Keep spinning it Ferrets! we are talking about an issue, not what Germans think of her overall leadership. But of course when that issue becomes the dominant one, then you will start to see a substantial slide.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34535983

Spin? I literally sourced the poll and read it to you. How is that spin? That is data, whether you like it or not doesn't matter, and I am correct in saying Merkel is more or less the most popular leader in the free world.

[swabian]

Much claim, no source.

Its all over the place buddy. Oh well, i guess ferrets wins again.

EDIT: https://yougov.de/news/2015/10/14/nu...-schaffen-das/

There you go. But alas it's only in mommy merkels mother tounge.

[swabian]

Normally, one would or could believe, that national-conservatism dies out sooner than later with the decline of the oldies, ie. WWI/WWII generation, post WWII generations (the direct childs of the war generations), and would quasi linerary be reduced with born ones from on late sixties which grew up in democratic shaped societies, ie. my generation and younger, where kinda monoculture started to be abandoned and human rights became the norm ... not the case, even not in the west (it's plausible for east-europe though, ex-east-block-lands, ie. as for keeping monocultural society ideals high within these societies by the people, versus an international communistic approach). The roots of that national-conservative trend are complex.

One would have thought that naivity and marxism dies out once kids are grown up. I guess that has more or less complex causes either.

Many people simply don't care much about the world's pain - not much national-conservatism, fascism and sociopathy required.
Now that i think of it, where were all the carebears when people started getting massacred by the score in Sudan? Carebears only seem to care if their own countries share in the damage, but, of course, not in the sense that they would make out a problem with mass immigration.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Its all over the place buddy. Oh well, i guess ferrets wins again.

EDIT: https://yougov.de/news/2015/10/14/nu...-schaffen-das/

There you go. But alas it's only in mommy merkels mother tounge.

Source cited talks about the volume of asylum seekers accepted, not anything about the Dublin agreement as you said. Not surprising, since Merkel's Government has repeatedly said it considers Dublin II to still be in force and anybody who knew that would have been able to spot you making up a mile off.

[RubiconDecision]

I can't quite comprehend how so many people can be so inhumane about refugees fleeing from war zones. like, if I'd had my house shelled I'd be on the first boat out.

1. Are they refugees by UNHCR definition? A fraction are.
2. Do countries open their borders regardless of the amount? No, we have immigration policies.
3. Just because Germany wants them doesn't compel other nations.
4. If a nation accepts more than they can logically handle, then this impedes the citizens and the refugees.
5. Who pays for it?
6. It's harmful to the refugees' country to braindrain their citizens.

Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.
- Winston Churchill

[Thorn777]

Keep spinning it Ferrets! we are talking about an issue, not what Germans think of her overall leadership. But of course when that issue becomes the dominant one, then you will start to see a substantial slide.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34535983

Ferrets manipulates data all the time. This has been proven.

I can't quite comprehend how so many people can be so inhumane about refugees fleeing from war zones. like, if I'd had my house shelled I'd be on the first boat out.

I can comprehend why you feel that way considering the way media reports it and political parties frame the debate. ALso in my Country many feel similary, but it is getting less and less by the day, more and more knowing how they are manipulated in to feeling guilty, key data being withheld and just seeing that a natural limit considering shelter etc has been reached long ago and Problems like rape and theft not only staggering but also being under-reported deliberately. All while virtually each critic is rhettorically stomped into the ground by the apparatus as a populist, coldhearted, or nazi. People had it with this form of living out altruism. For most it feels more like masochism.

[StarDreamer]

I can't quite comprehend how so many people can be so inhumane about refugees fleeing from war zones. like, if I'd had my house shelled I'd be on the first boat out.

Is it inhuman to want to direct our resources to those who need it the most, not those with the most resources to come here? For Finland Syrian asylum seekers are about 6th or 7th largest group by nationality and only a small fraction of asylum seekers.
All our regular reception centers are filled to capacity and we are having to open temporary shelters in whatever buildings we can find.
The costs are mounting and our already severly strecthed budget is ballooing. Our goverment already made several cuts to services before the crisis that weren't that popular. If this influx leads to more cuts I can only hope that the anger won't be directed at asylum seekers.

It isn't humane to take in more than can be handled. It will only lead to worsening conditions for those you have taken in and increased resistance from the local population.

If true, then behaviour like this from asylum seekers will not lead to good things.
http://www.mtv.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/ar...lletty/5496854 (Finnish)

Talking about doing more, I doubt the UK has the right to complain considering how few are reaching their shores.

[Thorn777]

Last month Emnid polls showed 64% think this policy is bad.


Despite all propganda...

Recent polls Show also every third wants Merkel to resign on the spot.

[Mithradates]

Migrant crisis: 'Afghan' man shot dead at Bulgaria border

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34546723

ricochet of a warning shot, hmm...

[snuggans]

6. It's harmful to the refugees' country to braindrain their citizens.

wait hold on, aren't you against immigration partly because of low-skilled workers? but in this case you feel it would be just too terrible to bear for the origin country to be denied its missing intellectuals?

[RubiconDecision]

wait hold on, aren't you against immigration partly because of low-skilled workers? but in this case you feel it would be just too terrible to bear for the origin country to be denied its missing intellectuals?

Hardly. You're confusing me with another poster.

The strength of America has historically come from pragmatic but limited immigration policy. If I was against immigration, then it would be not only self-loathing of my English, Scottish, Irish, German, Japanese, and Okinawan ancestors who emigrated but also at odds with my life doing refugee advocacy.

American immigration and refugee policy has a proven track record because of tireless selfless volunteers and acculturation. But swamping the system only creates a serf caste on welfare and ruins acculturation.

Braindraining a wartorn country ruins it. The bulk of refugee camps are close to conflict zones so eventually most can return...if they choose to. UNHCR defined refugees who play by the rules patiently have the right to petition...but that doesn't compel a country to accept them or grant them permanent asylum.

[Sint]

Spin? I literally sourced the poll and read it to you. How is that spin? That is data, whether you like it or not doesn't matter, and I am correct in saying Merkel is more or less the most popular leader in the free world.

Because your source contradicts your post?

[Thorn777]

Hardly. You're confusing me with another poster.

The strength of America has historically come from pragmatic but limited immigration policy. If I was against immigration, then it would be not only self-loathing of my English, Scottish, Irish, German, Japanese, and Okinawan ancestors who emigrated but also at odds with my life doing refugee advocacy.

American immigration and refugee policy has a proven track record because of tireless selfless volunteers and acculturation. But swamping the system only creates a serf caste on welfare and ruins acculturation.

Braindraining a wartorn country ruins it. The bulk of refugee camps are close to conflict zones so eventually most can return...if they choose to. UNHCR defined refugees who play by the rules patiently have the right to petition...but that doesn't compel a country to accept them or grant them permanent asylum.

The way many of these pro guys on here and out there feel is that you must be pro for this or you are against migration at all. What pure BS. Firstly Im for lawful political Asylum, but not this breaking Dublin2, knowingly enforcing a mass Migration towards here from camps within the EU and sending the Signal that everyone can start doing the same who are still outside the EU. You make it impossible for authorities to reasonable deal with these People, from shelters, to Police, to administrating applications or even Registration. It should be needless to say. But whatever...this board has a Long track-record of really weird opinions on every Topic.

If we have normal asylum then it is not a question of gaining something, but you do it because it is morally right. The People who argue that this current wave benfefits us and that we had These mass migrations before again prove how shallow they are. The past mass migrations where.

- French Hugenots and Dutch protestants who went Prussia. These where highly skilled mostly entering a place in dier Needs for their skills. The French Hugenots where famed for all sorts of crafts relating items ranging from leather to smithing, while the Dutch where good at construction and yes canals. Till this day we can see what These People brought to the table with their Protestant working ethic. They didnt speak the language but shared the same Religion and culture practically.

Eastern European jews - These disproportionally excelled in natural sciences, medicine and administration.

post ww2 Schlezians, Sudeten etc - also highly skilled German peoples who where emidiatly put to work. Specially the Schlezian miners and metal industry skilled in the Ruhr area.

1960's "guestworkers" - Italians, Greeks, Serbians, Turks. All did their Thing in an upwards economy in Need for unskilled Labor. The industry around today hardly has Need for unskilled Manpower any more.

I have no idea how People think that millions of unskilled People would benefit us. They would only benefit as consumers, but only if tax-payers pay for that consumption. Which is also Money a tax-payer then doesnt have. But that is the usual with Germany. I think they dont want to many to have to much Money(Germany has one of the lowest Price-wage Levels of the western world and goes completely against the grain of what producxtivity Levels would suggest - Wallstreet Recycling, tax-havens and Euro has most to do with this, but now also this). Money means power and freedom. It means you can have a much bigger saying of what to do with your life. You can translate it into spare-time and maybe actually think about things like politics and economics instead of Hearing the TV People out. It means you could invest if you save Long enough and dont Need spare time. It means consumption on local Levels because People have more Money to make a choice between products, where a domestic one lasts longer but costs more. It would mean less private debt to fund that house. It would mean getting out of cities like so many People actually Long for.

In this new globalist world they need People on an constant edge. Nothing more nothing less. Always dependend on their next paycheck. Never able to take a step back. Always staying within line of what company and govt wants from you. Say goodbye to western civic evolution. Hello technocracy.

[DaVinci]

Its all over the place buddy. Oh well, i guess ferrets wins again.

EDIT: https://yougov.de/news/2015/10/14/nu...-schaffen-das/

There you go. But alas it's only in mommy merkels mother tounge.

Somebody likes to use non-representative poll sources for his "argumentation".

Just one page before, i linked a representative poll source.


Similar item ...
Re Thorn's source-interpretations above, post #2773

I make it now like him: Putting a short-interpretation as link, while using the identical link-sources as him.

64 % of germans are unsatisfied with the refugee-issue management of the government in Berlin ... except, that is what the article says (in its core).
(while the rp-online article is poor anyway, the poll itself is not sourced/explained in any shape or form)

Every second german is against retirement of Merkel as for the refugee politics ... where he tries to make a picture with his link-name of seemingly an overwhelming number of germans aka 33 % wanna see Merkel retiring, the truth is, in this concrete poll-question, more than half along that poll refuse that idea, 52 % against a retirement, 33 % for, 15 % abstain (while the Focus-online article is poor anyway, the poll itself is not sourced/explained, just a direct Focus-online application, that means: Accessable for Focus-online readers only, which is not at all representative).

Classy examples, how Thorn makes up his demagogy propaganda, if he overall just randomly uses sources (i wonder, if he reads his sources actually).
For me, it looks like, he tries to applicate the media-headline mechanics of ie. the german Bild newspaper (or the english Sun whatsoever).

[swabian]

Somebody likes to use non-representative poll sources for his "argumentation".

Just one page before, i linked a representative poll source.


Similar item ...
Re Thorn's source-interpretations above, post #2773

I make it now like him: Putting a short-interpretation as link, while using the identical link-sources as him.

64 % of germans are unsatisfied with the refugee-issue management of the government in Berlin ... except, that is what the article says (in its core).
(while the rp-online article is poor anyway, the poll itself is not sourced/explained in any shape or form)

Every second german is against retirement of Merkel as for the refugee politics ... where he tries to make a picture of seemingly an overwhelming number of germans aka 33 % wanna see Merkel retiring, the truth is, in this concrete poll-question, more than half along that poll refuse that idea (while the Focus-online article is poor anyway, the poll itself is not sourced/explained, just a direct Focus-online application, that means: Accessable for Focus-online readers only, which is not at all representative).

Classy examples, how Thorn makes up his demagogy propaganda, if he overall just randomly uses sources (i wonder, if he reads his sources actually).
For me, it looks like, he tries to applicate the media-headline mechanics of ie. the german Bild newspaper (or the english Sun whatsoever).

The numbers you clumslily try to misinterprete can perfectly speak for themselves.