10 killed in a gun attack in France.

[Vanoi]

1.6 billion Muslims. Do the math.

Did you even read any of your statistics at all? You seem to be focusing on suicide bombing and ignoring every other statistics presented in that poll. Like how the majority of Muslims in pretty much every country except Sengal and i think Bangladesh consider Islamic extremism to be a issue in the country.

Or how just about every terror group (Hamas, Taliban, al-Qaeda, boko Haram, Hezbollah ect.) is viewed in a negative way by the vast majority of Muslims. That includes their actions and behaviors.

Even looking at suicide bombing statistics the vast majority of Muslims oppose it. There is no 100 million Muslims supporting suicide bombing. I don't think you are doing the math Pheir at all.

[Aikanár]

Gentlemen,

I understand that this is a highly emotional, very sad and deeply touching event and since this is the case it would be even more appreciated if we could all post in a way befitting this. So please refrain from
hate-speech (like generalizing derogatory statements about the entirety of followers of a certain religion),

promoting illegal activities (like calling for genocide)

or disruptive postings (like throwing in loaded one-liners prone to elicit ToS violations by other members) here - also Pegida has its own thread.

Despite the great posts and effort of many of you to make this a discussion befitting the event, it just took 2 moderators and half a hundred moderation actions to clean this thread. So please keep it civil.

Regards,
Aikanár

Re-opened

[anonimo272]

´

Start with the Middle east. We should not support dubious groups in Syria for example who helped with the rise of ISIS. Add to that, that you have some Saudi dudes investing really alot of money to spread the teachings of Abdel Wahhab to other country's

that is a big factor on the equation our governments should know better than supporting dubious groups
in this case it's perhaps more to do at the well being of the muslims in france
despite in daily life being exactly the same as every other french due to inequalities and sometimes some people, some may feel they are not "equals"

anyway in this case is clearly 3 disturbed guys (if they are in a organization or not is irrelevant)

[Papay]

The bottom line simple:You cannot interfere militarily on muslim countries and at the same time having a big number of muslim population in europe

[Steph]

Irrelevent. It's a newspaper office, for a newspaper which published anti fundamentalist cartoons.
Not related to "interfere militarily on muslim countries"

[Sphere]

Did you even read any of your statistics at all? You seem to be focusing on suicide bombing and ignoring every other statistics presented in that poll. Like how the majority of Muslims in pretty much every country except Sengal and i think Bangladesh consider Islamic extremism to be a issue in the country.

Or how just about every terror group (Hamas, Taliban, al-Qaeda, boko Haram, Hezbollah ect.) is viewed in a negative way by the vast majority of Muslims. That includes their actions and behaviors.

Even looking at suicide bombing statistics the vast majority of Muslims oppose it. There is no 100 million Muslims supporting suicide bombing. I don't think you are doing the math Pheir at all.

Well, I did the math. I used Wikipedia for the population of each country listed and the % of its population being Muslim. I only looked at the 'When is suicide bombing of civilians in defense of Islam' question. When you sum it all up you get this:

Number of Muslims represented by the poll ........ 1.066 billion
Total number responding with "often" ................. 46 million (4.4%)
Total number responding with "sometimes" ........... 102 million (9.6%)

Extrapolate to all Muslims (assuming ~1.6 billion world wide)
Total number agreeing with "often" ................. 71 million (4.4%)
Total number agreeing with "sometimes" ........... 152 million(9.6%)

So, yeah. 100 million is not a bad rough number for Muslims world wide who support suicide bombing of civilians in defense of Islam. It depenends on how much you read into the "sometimes" response.

But given these types of polls it shouldn't be surprising that extremist militant groups like the Islamic State can put together an army of volunteers in the tens of thousands and a warchest in the billions. These people are not the Heavens Gate cult of Islam, there are many millions of people who agree with them, their ideology and their tactics. They are a minority, but not an insignificant one.

[pajomife]

The bottom line simple:You cannot interfere militarily on muslim countries and at the same time having a big number of muslim population in europe

Thts the point,and with a direct attack against ISIS,religious,and a indirect ,Assad,secular,the west alienate almost everybody.is that the war is in our streets,this is the last dead,a police officer,the guys act against a protect area,just imagine a kill rampage against a bus station ,a coffee or any other unprotected zone.This isn't a isolated event ,this is just the beginning of a war,no matter all the attempts to branch the case,in few days the politicians will talk about the possibility of the national front gain some advantage with this case,this will be their main concern,not the thousands of jihadist in theirs homeland.

[Holger Danske]

Maybe this is a good time to start doing something radical about all those Jihad tourist coming from Syria and Iraq?

@pajomife

You actually want something as horrific as IS to exist and opperate with impunity, and you actually think this will stop as soon as the Middle East is emptied from every non-Muslim? Maybe you and Popey should team up...

[mishkin]

the war is in our streets

This is always the excuse of people who want (for some strange reason) to fight fire with more fire. It is not war. You have heard this befores, but they (any kind of fanatics, IRA, ETA, ISIS or whatever) do not represent a religion or a state, not even an idea.

[Phier]

Well, I did the math. I used Wikipedia for the population of each country listed and the % of its population being Muslim. I only looked at the 'When is suicide bombing of civilians in defense of Islam' question. When you sum it all up you get this:

Number of Muslims represented by the poll ........ 1.066 billion
Total number responding with "often" ................. 46 million (4.4%)
Total number responding with "sometimes" ........... 102 million (9.6%)

Extrapolate to all Muslims (assuming ~1.6 billion world wide)
Total number agreeing with "often" ................. 71 million (4.4%)
Total number agreeing with "sometimes" ........... 152 million(9.6%)

So, yeah. 100 million is not a bad rough number for Muslims world wide who support suicide bombing of civilians in defense of Islam. It depenends on how much you read into the "sometimes" response.

But given these types of polls it shouldn't be surprising that extremist militant groups like the Islamic State can put together an army of volunteers in the tens of thousands and a warchest in the billions. These people are not the Heavens Gate cult of Islam, there are many millions of people who agree with them, their ideology and their tactics. They are a minority, but not an insignificant one.

I love you, because I was about to do that math but I really want to go to lunch. Thank you, you are my superfriend.

[anonimo272]

Thts the point,and with a direct attack against ISIS,religious,and a indirect .Assad,secular,the west alienate almost everybody.is that the war is in our streets,this is the last dead.A police officer,the guys act against a protect area,just imagine a kill rampage against a bus station ,a coffee or any other unprotected zone.

the west allienated everybody by attacking ISIS and indirectly Assad ?
really ?
i agree that "the west" could have taken another aproach to the assad regime but did the west alienated everybody by attacking a wannabe "state" with pretty much no allies and by indirectly attacking a dictator ?
i dont think so

[Mary The Quene]

Thts the point,and with a direct attack against ISIS,religious,and a indirect ,Assad,secular,the west alienate almost everybody.is that the war is in our streets,this is the last dead,a police officer,the guys act against a protect area,just imagine a kill rampage against a bus station ,a coffee or any other unprotected zone.This isn't a isolated event ,this is just the beginning of a war.

That agent that has been shot down is an arab named Ahmed, if these terrorists are Arabs (we don't know yet) then they have not only commited horrible crimes but have betrayed their own kin aswell. I do not consider them one of my kin anymore

[Sphere]

Attacks on journalists/writers who "insulted islam" goes back all the way to Salmon Rushdie in 1988. Hell, Hitoshi Igarashi, the man who translated the Satanic verses into Japanese was stabbed to death in Japan. What exactly did he have to do with western adventurism in the Middle-east?

The answer is nothing. You've got the wrong thesis if you're just ignore the deeply held religious believes of the people who carry out these crimes. Or do you think that if this magazine had been based acrossed the border in Switzerland the perpetrators would have been okay with the cartoons? I think not. Their complaints are expressly religious, not political.

I love you, because I was about to do that math but I really want to go to lunch. Thank you, you are my superfriend.

Start a lobby group to keep Jay Cutler in Chicago and I'll do all the math you want.

[justicar5]

This book talks about the future of France,not only possible but probable,when French people prevents Marine from reach the presidency in 2022.Instead of that they elected a Muslim ,and at the end all the French people will live under sharia law.
Enjoy more 7 years of liberty,and by the way,the attack was in a leftist newspaper?

so your answer is, in response to terror to elect the direct ideological descendants of Vichy France, the collaborationist Nazi puppets, your answer to murder is genocide?? Or we could punish these murderers, and let the families of the victims mourn.

[baptistus]

That agent that has been shot down is an arab named Ahmed, if these terrorists are Arabs (we don't know yet) then they have not only commited horrible crimes but have betrayed their own kin aswell. I do not consider them one of my kin anymore

it seems it is right. But he was not litteraly an "arab", he was french. It is important to say it.
Mohamed merah, another french terrorist, before to kill french jewish children he had killed two french soldiers who was muslim.

[Mary The Quene]

it seems it is right. But he was not litteraly an "arab", he was french. It is important to say it.
Mohamed merah, another french terrorist, before to kill french jewish children he had killed two french soldiers who was muslim.

yeah, they're hypocrites

[Claudius Gothicus]

Hope they catch them, alive, and I hope the French government doesn't feel intimidated into rejecting future cooperation with the rest of the west by such brutal attacks on their citizenry. It's also true that homegrown has become an actual possibility for many European societies, there's a significant number of non-integrated youths of Islamic background who are living in the middle of western countries and have little to no regard for liberal values or institutions, many are even harder on western ways than their immigrant parents, some, an insignificant minority, even went to fight for different Islamist militias... that's a problem that governments have to look into.

[DisgruntledGoat]

Great post, I agree with most of what you said and I believe it perfectly describes the recent events in Australia and Canada. On the other hand, what happened in France doesn't match very well with the acts of the gunmen in Sidney, Boston or Montreal. In the videos they looked very professional, like mercenaries or very well-trained fighters, so imo it's a well planned act by a group that wasn't just pissed by some comics published three years ago.

Its not about what drove them to this SPECIFIC action though. Its about what drove them to extremism in the first place. Whether they are highly trained or not, at some point in their life they probably didn't think murder was an acceptable action to demonstrate ones views. So where did they stray, why did they stray and who manipulated them once they did. I'm not looking at specific instances I'm looking at extremism as a whole.

[pajomife]

Maybe this is a good time to start doing something radical about all those Jihad tourist coming from Syria and Iraq?

@pajomife

You actually want something as horrific as IS to exist and opperate with impunity, and you actually think this will stop as soon as the Middle East is emptied from every non-Muslim? Maybe you and Popey should team up...

One of the problems of our information society, is our concern with what is happening miles away, the television bring everything to our home, and appeal to the "good heart", from, get immigrants to the middle of the sea until personalizing any death in distant lands, everything comes through our eyes and everything seems to be our responsibility, it seems that the West and Westerners must or feel an obligation to take responsibility for the entire population of the planet earth. the "public opinion" is weired,lets see whats happen if things like this begin to take place on an almost daily basis.

[wangrin]

Sadness.

And now extremists from both sides will use this crime to add fuel to the fire.