Feedback: Dunland

[caspoi]

I might have been confused but the unit description seemed to say that the warbands shout their warcry (and get stronger by it as in an ability) before battle commences.

Some of Khand's high tier horse-archers lack the whirlwind ability despite their description but the team already knows that so I brought them up just for comparison.

[webba84]

Yup, Easterling Warband is a similar scenario, they did use to have that ability but it was removed. We will fix the descriptions up, thanks!

[caspoi]

Seeing as I have become the master nitpicker with unit stats I will highlight that the hireling swertings lack the ability to hide in long grass despite the fact that both their mercenary and far haradrian counterparts have it (and their unit description says so).

[CountMRVHS]

It's good to have many eyes on such things, else a lot would get missed. We do appreciate it. I'll have to see if that is an error in the description or an error in the attribute designation.

[caspoi]

Having played as Dunland there are a few concerns that I would like to bring up:
1. the "cultic" system: the fact that when you, as a faction with the potential to convert to the shadow cult, conquer cities of importance (such as Edoras) all regions will get a "hidden" cultic conversion which increase conversion to the shadow cult by 5 %. This might sound well and good but it definately "forces" these factions to become cultic. For one thing all forts and such will automatically become cultic because it is the only "building" affecting things. Another is that as these things stack it will become impossible for these factions to convert regions from the cult (your conversion buildings never bypass 25 % and if you combine the regional religion with these "bonuses" they can easily bypass this and get for instance 30 %). I suggest that you make it so that this only applies if you have converted to the shadow cult (if this is possible) or remove it all together.
2. Your "homelands": As far as I can tell only the Enedwaith regions count as Dunland's homeland and only the drúedain regions as fiefdoms. I will point out that Rohan was the historical homeland of Dunland (hence why they hate the rohirrim) and yet these regions only count as outland dominions. Helms deep was even partially built by Wulf, who was half a dunlending. Compare this with Adûnabâr which can build homeland dominions practically everywhere, even in the Shire! It is also possible that Bree should be a fiefdom seeing as they share the same blood.
3. The orcs: while I understand why Dunland does not have acess to the breeding grounds to train Uruk- and Olog-Hai I don't see why they would not be able to train standard wargs and hill trolls. This is more about striking a deal with already existing wild beasts instead of breeding your own.
4. Dol Baran: This is really just immersion but shouldn't the outpost of Dol Baran be dúnedanic? While Dunland begin in charge with it this was previously a gondorian outpost and should logically have been built in gondorian fashion.
5. (I forgot this one) the starting units: Dunland starts too strong and with far too many wolfhunters. They are a semi-elite unit and yet almost every army start with two or three of them. Put it this way I could probably crush Rohan with only my starting units even if I autoresolved every battle.

[athanaric]

Regarding Dol Baran, it'd be cool if it were possible to build "exploit wonder" there.

[caspoi]

I thought so too although I presumed that there already were some sort of bonus (it is hard to tell with these wonders).

[CountMRVHS]

1. True, but there's a limited number of settlements which count for the hidden conversion bonus. I think it's Edoras for Dunland (possibly MA too; not sure).... maybe MA and/or DA for Harad... not sure if Rhun gets any, though perhaps Dale or Erebor. Anyway you're not going to get more than 2 per campaign I think. Did you actually play through Dunland and find yourself forced into Cultic conversion due to the mechanic?

2. Been a long time since Dunland was in charge of Calenardhon. Even longer since there was any connection between Dunlendings and Bree. Fiefdom/Homeland dominion is typically associated with places that are close in culture or have been recently held/ruled by the faction. Can't say that about either of those places for Dunland. A case could be made to remove the Shire as a homeland for Adun, probably.

3. Hill-trolls probably wouldn't be available in the Misty Mountains Hold anyway. Not sure if Wargs are trainable there by Adunabar. I wouldn't be opposed to the idea, I think.

4. Orthanc was built by Dunedain; I take it the Outpost of Dol Baran is intended to represent a more recent fortification.

5. We're going to buff up Rohan's starting armies for the Dunland player via the CS.

[MasterOfNone]

Wargs are, as I understand it, creatures of Rhovanion, thus only available east of the Misty Mountains. Dunland only has access to the weak creatures: Snaga and Orcs - whilst Adunabar has access to those plus Uruks and Wargs and Trolls...

[caspoi]

1. I have not come to the point were my roster has turned cultic (you need to build temples for that after all) but all my forts have turned cultic and I will Point out that 10 % is enough to make it impossible to trun regions such as Calenhad from the shadow cult, at least if you are playing as men of darkness.

2. I agree that Bree shold not be a homeland province (although there was immigration from the south to Bree during the War of the Ring) and possibly not even a fiefdom but I don't Think that you can simply rule out Rohan simply because of time, it has "only" been 850 years since the eothread settled the region and a far longer time since "Arnor North" (or the Shire for that matter) was part of the Reunited Kingdom and Anfalas has never been that as far as I know and the drúedain that inhabit the region are not Close kin to the gondorians in any way. Rohan could reasonably get a lot of immigrants from Dunland if it is being conquered seeing how Close they are and the fact that many Dunlendings would probably want to go there (more fertile lands and such and it might also be a question of pride). Mayby that it should not be a homeland (which would mean that the whole roster would be made up of dunlendings but at least a fiefdom would be reasonable I Think.
3. Wargs are primarly found in Anduin's vales which is quite as Close to Dunland as it is to Adûnabâr. I also think that it would be possible to find trolls in the misty Mountains that you could train, matby not hill trolls (who I can only remember being mentioned at the battle of the Morannon) and certainly not Olog-Hai but at least some Cave trolls.
4. I know that but the area still belonged to the reunited kingdom Before Dunland and presumably it was they who built the outpost.

[Deathshade]

There were trolls in Rhudaur (remember Bilbo and what Aragorn says of that in the Fellowship, juste before their encounter with Glorfindel). There were also wargs in Eriador, some attacked the Shire during the Long Winter. And let's not forget the attack on the Fellowship in Eregion.

Wulf never participated in the erection of Helm Deep, he was in the opposit camp, so it would be weird for it to be a Fiefdom (but why not). Tharbad (the city) is a Fiefdom.

There already is a wonder in Dol Baran, it says so when you take it.

[MasterOfNone]

I believe those were wolves that attacked the Shire back then (?), big white ones iirc

In any case, the advanced creatures come under Adunabar's full cultic control by virtue of Herumor. Again, we don't wish to blur factions or create greater spread of non-Mannish units than is necessary.

[caspoi]

There were trolls in Rhudaur (remember Bilbo and what Aragorn says of that in the Fellowship, juste before their encounter with Glorfindel). There were also wargs in Eriador, some attacked the Shire during the Long Winter. And let's not forget the attack on the Fellowship in Eregion.

Wulf never participated in the erection of Helm Deep, he was in the opposit camp, so it would be weird for it to be a Fiefdom (but why not). Tharbad (the city) is a Fiefdom.

There already is a wonder in Dol Baran, it says so when you take it.

It is called the trollshaws, although this is now a human land under the control of Adûnabâr and it was not wargs but wolves that attacked the Shire but you do present a good point: it is hardly as if wargs or trolls were confined to one area (unles you count this whole dominion of men thing).

I meant Freca (his father) who I believed made some expansions to the fortifications of Helms deep. I might bne wrong though because he is also described to have built a fortress for himself and I might have missunderstood the two.

He is talking about the building that you normally can build if you have captured a wonder.

[Thangaror]

3. Hill-trolls probably wouldn't be available in the Misty Mountains Hold anyway. Not sure if Wargs are trainable there by Adunabar. I wouldn't be opposed to the idea, I think.

The Fellowship encounters a Troll in Moria. However, as there are now accounts of Orc holds south of Moria, I doubt that any Trolls would be found there.

2. I agree that Bree shold not be a homeland province (although there was immigration from the south to Bree during the War of the Ring) and possibly not even a fiefdom but I don't Think that you can simply rule out Rohan simply because of time, it has "only" been 850 years since the eothread settled the region and a far longer time since "Arnor North" (or the Shire for that matter) was part of the Reunited Kingdom[...]
3. Wargs are primarly found in Anduin's vales which is quite as Close to Dunland as it is to Adûnabâr. I also think that it would be possible to find trolls in the misty Mountains that you could train, matby not hill trolls (who I can only remember being mentioned at the battle of the Morannon) and certainly not Olog-Hai but at least some Cave trolls.

@ 2: I tend to agree. It's not only a question of history, but also how easily a region can be converted to another culture. And this depends on two things:
1. Is the conqueror's culture superior to the native culture?
(roman >> celtic; dúnedainic >> dunlandic)
2. How many people you have to slaughter and replace by your kinsmen?

Consequently, considering #2, Westfold could quite easily become a holdfast of the Dunlendings.
In contrast, half of Arnor being depopulated, it's much easier to convert these lands to Dúnedainic culture or Shadow Cult (also consider Dúnedainic life expectancy!)

@ 3. The Fellowship was quite surprised to encounter Wargs in Eregion. They are creatures of the east and it's still a long way round Fangorn across Calenardhon into Dunland...

Wulf never participated in the erection of Helm Deep, he was in the opposit camp, so it would be weird for it to be a Fiefdom (but why not). Tharbad (the city) is a Fiefdom.

No, I think @caspoi misunderstood something here. It's called Helm's Deep for a reason! Neither Wulf nor Freca ever set a foot in this castle, I'm fairly certain.
Also, "no enemy has yet taken the Hornburg"!
It was called the Súthburg by the Rohirrim since they had made Calenardhon their Kingdom. And the fortress itself was far older, dating back to the first centuries of the Third Age, built by the Gondorians, being one of the two fortresses guarding the Fords of Isen (the other being Angrenost, obviously). It's original name is given nowhere, however. It's often referred to as "Aglarond", I don't know if that name is canonic. Considering the Rohirric name it maybe was called "Harnost" (or Annûnost? Seen from Minas Arnor is more west than south... )

I believe those were wolves that attacked the Shire back then (?), big white ones iirc

Yep, great white wolves, no wargs.

[caspoi]

@ 2: I tend to agree. It's not only a question of history, but also how easily a region can be converted to another culture. And this depends on two things:
1. Is the conqueror's culture superior to the native culture?
(roman >> celtic; dúnedainic >> dunlandic)
2. How many people you have to slaughter and replace by your kinsmen?

Consequently, considering #2, Westfold could quite easily become a holdfast of the Dunlendings.
In contrast, half of Arnor being depopulated, it's much easier to convert these lands to Dúnedainic culture or Shadow Cult (also consider Dúnedainic life expectancy!)

I believe that you are blending the "dominions" with the religion of the region. The fact that both Rohan and Bree are dominated by the ways of the west is something that I approve of but whether the region would be considered a part of the factions homeland is something else. At any rate which culture is the best is not that simple and Rohan does not follow a dúnedainic culture anyway.

No, I think @caspoi misunderstood something here. It's called Helm's Deep for a reason! Neither Wulf nor Freca ever set a foot in this castle, I'm fairly certain.
Also, "no enemy has yet taken the Hornburg"!
It was called the Súthburg by the Rohirrim since they had made Calenardhon their Kingdom. And the fortress itself was far older, dating back to the first centuries of the Third Age, built by the Gondorians, being one of the two fortresses guarding the Fords of Isen (the other being Angrenost, obviously). It's original name is given nowhere, however. It's often referred to as "Aglarond", I don't know if that name is canonic. Considering the Rohirric name it maybe was called "Harnost" (or Annûnost? Seen from Minas Arnor is more west than south... )

I know that the númenorrians were the ones who originally built Helm's Deep but I also thought that Freca made some expansions on it before he was killed by Helm. However my more recent research say that he build a fortress for himself at the river Adorn so as I mentioned in my earlier post this might all be a missconception of mine were I thought that that fortress was Helm's Deep.

[CountMRVHS]

However my more recent research say that he build a fortress for himself at the river Adorn so as I mentioned in my earlier post this might all be a missconception of mine were I thought that that fortress was Helm's Deep.

Yep. In DoM that likely equates to Dunfreca​.

[caspoi]

Probably, it would seem logical.

[Casual Tactician]

Siege of Hornburg - Playing on recommended... Campaign: Medium / Battles: Hard

I layed siege to Hornburg fairly early in the game (FO 360), after pulling most of my men together for a full on assault on the Rohirrim.

With a superior army (~ 14-16 units) I eventually - after defeating two minor unit stacks of the Rohirrim - attacked the Hornburg (which had ~ 3 cavalry und 4 melee units (at the most)) a few turns later...

On top of that main army, I had an additional smaller army with ~ 6-8 units stationed further towards Edoras, to intercept any Rohirrim relief forces moving towards my main army - the one laying siege to the Hornburg. As the Rohirrim mostly send small 2-4-unit armies, my interception army had no trouble defeating them...

As I eventually attacked the Hornburg I had exactly 12 siege towers and 3 battering rams (no more and no less). I didn't even think this could not work out fine... what a fool I was!

I was positive to win this battle... but no. All the siege towers and all 3 battering rams were destroyed and burned down in no time!!!, even tough I advanced 6 siege towers and 2 battering rams simultaneously (and send in the waiting towser and rams in as soon as possible).

There was no combat at all... only 12 destroyed towers and 3 burning rams...


PS: Autoresolving that battle gave me a cleare victory.

[caspoi]

Towers are certainly far too good currnetly, even in standard fortifications the towers are easily enough to repell attackers (often making sneak attacks pointless) and now we are not even speaking of the capabilities of settlements like the Hornburg. I have watched full stack armies getting annialated trying to scale the wall of a dwarven fortress, leaving only a few stragglers left to be slaughtered by my dwaven soldiers if any.

[CountMRVHS]

I wonder why some are finding the Hornburg impossible to assault, while others are able to assault Minas Anor (at least in terms of getting towers up there)...

The AI is fairly terrible at siege assaults, so I wouldn't judge the strength of the towers based on the AI's inability to mount a successful assault. If an experienced player is finding it impossible to assault, though, that is worthy of another look.

Were you at a bad point in the walls, perhaps? (i.e., lots of tower coverage hitting your siege gear?)