Should the West (mainly USA and EU) support the Syrian Army in it's war against ISIS?

[the new username]

Unfortunately I have to agree with the above poster
Taking out saddam was the worst thing done to the area. He was a tyrant who wasn't fit rule, but he kept the area stabilised.
There's much more suffering and grief now than there was under saddam.

[empr guy]

But the truth is that we should've never killed Saddam Hussein in the first place.

I believe it was the iraqis that killed Saddam (although I agree there is a strong case for thewest not overthrowing him in the first place)

I think you all forget China and Russia still exist in this world; so why prevent FREE Kurdistan to seek other two major suppliers' support in order to fulfill its own ambition, especially that ambition is a good trolling against West and no reason why Chinese and Russian would not want to miss this opportunity?

US and the iraqi kurds have been pretty good friends for some time, I'm not sure why they would give the entire west the finger and become chinese/russian puppets after US airstrikes have been a huge part of not getting over run by the ISIS and other nations will probably give them weapons/ammo which they apparently desperately need.


It's probably best to assist everyone fighting the ISIS, but US probably lacks the contacts to fight with syrian kurds and FSA/minor rebel groups effectively and Assad doesn't want american help. I wish US would at least bomb the crap out of iraqi ISIS but it doesn't look like even thats happening...

[Condottiere 40K]

Bush Forty One made a strategic miscalculation in permitting Saddam to continue his regime; had the Americans rolled in, they would have had the gratitude of the Shia majority, and minimized Iranian influence in the country.

Bush Forty Three's mistake was in allowing the dismantling of the Baathist bureaucratic structure and the destruction of the Iraqi officer corps.

[opock]

Say what you want, but when Assad and Hussein were uncontroversially in charge the region knew stability and peace. I don't believe that the barbarians of the mid-east are susceptible to any other kind of rule than the iron fist, so the iron fist is what we should give them. It's what keeps muslim extremism from rearing its ugly head, it's what keeps oil prices stable, it's what keeps nations running. Should we side with Assad? Probably. But the truth is that we should've never killed Saddam Hussein in the first place.

The problem with that line of thinking is that it's not just the crazies and barbarians that those types fed into woodchippers. Anyone on the other end of the spectrum, anyone arguing for classical liberalism, democratization, or basic rights were viewed as no different than Islamists or other radicals and treated accordingly. Yes Saddam/Assad were able to keep the nutballs in check through extreme violence. The flip side of that is they were also able to keep the good guys in check through those same means. I don't really think innocents care much whether they were murdered by Saddam/Assad or Baghdadi.

[The Dude]

Opock, I understand the conundrum. But evidently the price we paid for letting democracy have its chance in the middle east is unbridled civil war and muslim extremism. Was it worth it? We're a decade further and look at where it landed us. I'm reminded of the story of Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson, where upon the moment the rebels overthrow the tyrannical Lord Ruler they discover that he was actually the guardian against a far greater evil called Ruin, lurking in a well beneath his palace. I sometimes feel that by killing Saddam we unleashed Ruin ourselves, and now we're stuck trying to fight it.

[Visna]

If we (as in "the west") manage to disregard any sympathy for the poor fellows caught in the middle of this insanity, this war is not a terrible turn of events. Our enemies are killing each other. No need to interrupt them in such an important task.

[opock]

Opock, I understand the conundrum. But evidently the price we paid for letting democracy have its chance in the middle east is unbridled civil war and muslim extremism. Was it worth it? We're a decade further and look at where it landed us. I'm reminded of the story of Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson, where upon the moment the rebels overthrow the tyrannical Lord Ruler they discover that he was actually the guardian against a far greater evil called Ruin, lurking in a well beneath his palace. I sometimes feel that by killing Saddam we unleashed Ruin ourselves, and now we're stuck trying to fight it.

I agree that it was clearly not worth it to go trotting around the middle east and central Asia trying to install democracy. I think we can look back and acknowledge that the Saddam/Assad's of the world provide stable mass murder over instable mass murder. Sadly if we have to choose we must choose stable mass murder. But we shouldn't pretend that those murderers are any less evil than the radicals. The thing that makes them preferable to the unstable types is that at least some times they can be bargained with or constrained, and internationally we can set rules and boundaries that even if they don't like they realize they have no choice but to follow.

[Heathen Hammer]

The US have done way too much damage to the area. They should airstrike themselves.

This. In fact, an air strike on White House and Pentagon could actually help more, given how US had been backing "freedom fighters" in Syria for so long.

But in all seriousness, the real root of Islamism is coming from Gulf States. Just cut of the head and be done with it.

[Condottiere 40K]

The Saudis will find it's a snake that eats it's own tail.

Or is that paganism?

[Mayer]

Sadly if we have to choose we must choose stable mass murder. But we shouldn't pretend that those murderers are any less evil than the radicals. The thing that makes them preferable to the unstable types is that at least some times they can be bargained with or constrained, and internationally we can set rules and boundaries that even if they don't like they realize they have no choice but to follow.

Except the USA will never be internationally contained

[pretorian024]

Too bad some politicians can't get it. Some regions and countries are not ready for democracy. Society has to evolve and people needs to accept that different people are ok. You cannot expect overnight change of Iran into liberal Holland, it's ridiculous. Saddam kept Iraq together, without him only another Saddam can do the same. Kurds finally have their chance of getting their freedom and independence. They will never quit. New state of Kurdistan will be a nice tool in the hands of US as they have claim on parts of Iran and Syria. Kurdish people can easily be missused to fight Iran and Syria instead Turkey... Anything can happen as Pandoras box have been opened in 1999. UN will never have any power except on paper. Now the law is written by arms and money. East is rising and west got to spoiled. Tough times are ahead so let's play more games while there is electricity.

[Claudius Gothicus]

Well, it's good to hear that the US leadership is somewhat coming to it's senses, realizing the situation in Baghdad is far to complicated right now to wait for "Iraqi troops" to do the fighting appropriately. While the governing elite at the capital keepds indulging in intrigues and standoffs it's good to see logistics (as little as they are right now) getting to the correct actors.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2014...ref=world&_r=0

[youngfool]

The enemy of my enemy is not my friend irony

love it!

[wilpuri]

It would be enough if they simply stopped supporting the myriad armed groups.

[tarvu]

Too bad some politicians can't get it. Some regions and countries are not ready for democracy. Society has to evolve and people needs to accept that different people are ok. You cannot expect overnight change of Iran into liberal Holland, it's ridiculous. Saddam kept Iraq together, without him only another Saddam can do the same. Kurds finally have their chance of getting their freedom and independence. They will never quit. New state of Kurdistan will be a nice tool in the hands of US as they have claim on parts of Iran and Syria. Kurdish people can easily be missused to fight Iran and Syria instead Turkey... Anything can happen as Pandoras box have been opened in 1999. UN will never have any power except on paper. Now the law is written by arms and money. East is rising and west got to spoiled. Tough times are ahead so let's play more games while there is electricity.

Yes because after all Democracy came to Europeans so easily... they really just embraced it peacefully and everyone became "liberal Holland" overnight.

Europeans and their sense of history...

[Rex Basiliscus]

Well, since the US armed ISIS, they should now at least (being the policeman of the World, as they assume they are) clean up their mess. Destabilization of the region was the plan from the start and in that the military-industrial complex has succeeded.

After that America should retreat from the region.

[Blaze86420]

Say what you want, but when Assad and Hussein were uncontroversially in charge the region knew stability and peace. I don't believe that the barbarians of the mid-east are susceptible to any other kind of rule than the iron fist, so the iron fist is what we should give them. It's what keeps muslim extremism from rearing its ugly head, it's what keeps oil prices stable, it's what keeps nations running. Should we side with Assad? Probably. But the truth is that we should've never killed Saddam Hussein in the first place.

Iraq went to war with Kuwait and Iran, gassed Kurds and executed Shiites, that's not peace and stability. Have you considered that the extremism is actually the result of the iron first you think kept them in check? Jihadism and Salafism have been on the rise before the demise of those secular Arab-socialist tyrannies. Many argue that they are the cause of this rise in militant-Islamism.

[Condottiere 40K]

The American might agree to share intelligence with Assad on ISIS and perhaps drone them, in exchange that they concentrate their attacks on the group, instead of wasting resources on the rest of the resistance.

[Derpy Hooves]

For those claiming the US armed ISIS, can I get a source?

[Rex Basiliscus]

http://larouchepac.com/node/31101

http://thehill.com/policy/internatio...en-paul-claims