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Thread: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

  1. #1

    Default RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    As we all know RTW phalanxes are very powerful, and I am interested in how the M2 pikemen will compare. I am fairly certain that they will no longer receive the massive damage bonus when fighting downhill, this is a good thing as historically they were supposed to fight on flat terrain anyway. Will they be able to fight uphill with their pikes in eb2? In vanilla the spearwall becomes 'non-existent' and enemys just run right over it, they can't even attack with their pikes and have to switch to their secondary weapon.


  2. #2

    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    I am hoping to see pike phalanxes become more vulnerable to missile weapons. It was ridiculous that in EB1 these men with their tiny shields had some of the highest shield defense values in the game. The result is that you didn't need to screen or protect your phalanx with light infantry and missile units. You could just spam more pike phalanxes and use them as a sponge to soak up arrows and javelins.

    P.S. Yes, I know that attacking them from the flanks or rear is the way to go, but the above remains true.

  3. #3

    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    I hope they dont get nerfed too much, they are phalanx after all.

  4. #4

    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    I myself do hope they get nerfed. In the current state they are way to powerful compared to other infantry, even when probably flanked they can cause your forces massive damage

  5. #5

    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    i read that in EB2 the phalanx will only have 3 ranks of spears (in EB1 it was 5 ranks of spears) making it not so invincible to frontal assaults.

    And last time i checked they removed their secondary weapon because of a M2 bug where they would drop almost instantly their spears and charge the enemy with their secondary weapon (making them useless)

    And eb1 phalanx was just OP as hell.

  6. #6

    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    Good point I forgot to mention that the EB phalanxes are bulletproof... even the lowliest native levy laughs at javelins and arrows

    >And last time i checked they removed their secondary weapon

    Interesting, I look forward to watching them fight uphill

  7. #7

    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    I must have been playing a different game (or maybe a different difficulty level, I always go M/M), because I've never found phalanxes to be overpowered or hard to deal with in EB. The only ones that are tricky are the elite phalanxes, and that's how they're supposed to be.

  8. #8

    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    Pikes in M2TW...well, AI pikes will suck. M2TW AI isn't good with them. An M2TW pike formation is both looser and projects less rows of pikes than RTW phalanx.

    In human hands, well...properly used, it'll be a slaughter. M2TW pikes are extremely powerful when mixed with another unit. You can use overlapping three row and two row units of pikemen to create a dense, five rows deep "real" phalanx, or use heavy infantry standing in front and between first rows of pikemen to protect them from entering melee if any soldier gets close, or use pikemen to guard ranged troops standing among them from melee while they pour their arrows, javelins or bullets into enemy from point blank. I made a little tutorial about pikes in DBM forum...just lemme dig it up.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...to-use-phalanx

    There...fifth post in thread.

  9. #9

    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    In the Battle of the Nile video the AI seemed to use the phalanx well, and the fighting seemed quite awesome, and i got the impression it will be alot more suscetible to flank attacks and arrows.
    Then, as throngs of his enemies bore down upon him and one of his followers said, "They are making at thee, O King," "Who else, pray," said Antigonus, "should be their mark? But Demetrius will come to my aid." This was his hope to the last, and to the last he kept watching eagerly for his son; then a whole cloud of javelins were let fly at him and he fell.

    -Plutarch, life of Demetrius.

    Arche Aiakidae-Epeiros EB2 AAR

  10. #10

    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulfburk View Post
    In the Battle of the Nile video the AI seemed to use the phalanx well, and the fighting seemed quite awesome, and i got the impression it will be alot more suscetible to flank attacks and arrows.
    Link?

  11. #11

    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    I've never found phalanxes to be overpowered or hard to deal with in EB.
    Same here. I thought all EB units were very well balanced. Though I've never tried a frontal assault on a phalanx; they get wrecked from the back just as easily as any other unit.

    With my own pikemen, they usually didn't do much killing after a while and would just stand in place, pinning the enemy, unless i made them move forward manually. I assumed that's what they were supposed to do: pin the enemy.
    Last edited by TheHolyRoman; August 03, 2014 at 03:30 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    Quote Originally Posted by Sar1n View Post
    M2TW pikes are extremely powerful when mixed with another unit. You can use overlapping three row and two row units of pikemen...
    BLASPHEMY!!!

  13. #13

    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    Then, as throngs of his enemies bore down upon him and one of his followers said, "They are making at thee, O King," "Who else, pray," said Antigonus, "should be their mark? But Demetrius will come to my aid." This was his hope to the last, and to the last he kept watching eagerly for his son; then a whole cloud of javelins were let fly at him and he fell.

    -Plutarch, life of Demetrius.

    Arche Aiakidae-Epeiros EB2 AAR

  14. #14

    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    In another MTW2 mod Third Age, there are phalanxes and they work pretty good, not like in vanila MTW2... So I hope its gonna be same here
    I choose to die on my feet, rather than live on my knees!

  15. #15
    Libertus
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    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHolyRoman View Post
    BLASPHEMY!!!
    I actually also think MTW2 pikemen were quite strong. Of course you could flank them, but if you secured flanks, they were almost impenetrable. If you have 1 unit of pikemen guarding your gate, they would kill everything, no matter how many enemies will attack them (at least in 1.3 MTW2, at least when I played it). As for phalanx - I agree they were maybe too good against missile attacks. Against frontal melee I donīt think they were OP - they should be really strong against that (and weak against flanking).

  16. #16

    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    The only concern I have is with a phalanx unit defending walls in EB II. Considering the (good) design decision to take away their secondary weapons to maintain a more believable unit cohesion, a phalanx unit also uses their spears when defending walls (as seen in one of the two EB II AARs).

    This would be the only point in time to see them switch to their secondary close range weapons, as it would make for more realism and less imbalanced fights. But maybe I'm mistaken and they can actually be defeated on walls, we'll see post-release I suppose.

  17. #17

    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    The idea of a wall mounted pike phalanx sounds both funny and awesome

  18. #18

    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    Quote Originally Posted by nein View Post
    The idea of a wall mounted pike phalanx sounds both funny and awesome
    I'll add 'scary' to the list. Here's the picture by the way - it doesn't look too good for the attackers... The full AAR can be found here, I didn't spot it on TWC yet.


  19. #19
    Yerevan's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    In EB1 I loved to see some phalangites from the last ranks using their swords. I also imagined they were using them to finish the opponents on the ground. I might miss this animation a bit, but frankly I think the cohesion/movement of the phalanx in the battle of the Nile video is adequate. I love this video. Watched it 10 times until now.
    " Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! "

  20. #20

    Default Re: RTW phalanx vs M2 phalanx

    Phalaxes having too good stats vs. incoming missiles from the front in EB1, is due to their high shield value. Phalanxes, all using a fairly small shield, have 5 and eg. imperial legionaries, using a large shield, only have 4.

    - [click on images for stats]


    But that shouldn't be an issue in EB2. IIRC the team is using Aradan's EDU-matic (or a modified version of it - I'm not sure). One of it's features is a kind of 'you get what you see' approach. So any unit with eg. a 'small wooden shield' will have the same fairly low shield value. Here's an excerpt:
    Welcome to EDU-matic. It is a tool that automatically generates a balanced export_descr_unit file for RTW or M2TW and their expansions) mod based on a fairly limited amount of customisable variables and attributes. The basic principles upon which EDU-matic is built are the following:

    The central element of a unit is the soldier. This generic, unarmed and unarmoured soldier has certain stats. A number of global variables/rules are also defined, that form the basic structure of the balance system.

    Then, the basic elements are defined. Unit classes, categories, weapons, projectiles, armours, shields, engines, mounts and so on. Each one of those elements is set to affect various unit-stats, called "attributes" (eg a melee weapon might affect attack, charge, defence, cost). These core elements can have multiple values as options (eg melee weapon might be dagger, shortsword, or longsword), and each one of these options might have a different value for the element's attributes. All these elements, attributes and values are collectively called the "core data".
    Example: "Shortsword, Attack 4, Charge 2, Defence 1, Cost 20", is a definition for the "Shortsword" option of the "Melee weapon" core data element.
    A unit is essentially the sum of a combination of all the aforementioned core data options. Which means, in order to describe a unit, you need to provide its name, its quality class, its weapon, its armour type, its shield type, its mount and generally choose for it a value for each available core data element. That combination of those core data element values is called a "unit definition".
    Example: "My Unit, low quality, shortsword, small wooden shield, steel cap, padded leather vest, leather boots, unarmoured horse.", is a unit definition for the unit "My Unit".
    In order to calculate a unit's stats, the tool reads its definition, breaks it down into its various elements, finds the relevant core data each element is associated with, and feeds all that into a function.

    Therefore, what a user mainly needs to do is provide EDU-matic with the core data elements and then define which of those describe each unit. Getting unit stats from those becomes then a rather simple process. The EDU generation can be broken down in 7 steps: 1. Defining core data, 2. Defining units, 3. Checking for errors, 4. Generating data, 5. Manually Editing data (optional), 6. Formatting data, 7. Generating EDU
    Below follows a description of each step.
    But I may be wrong, so perhaps a team member can clarify this.

    BTW, Aradan and others are working on a new release of their Fourth Age Total War mod for RTW, if anyone is interested in a (very) high-quality mod with a Middle-earth setting. Hope the EB2 devs forgive me for shamelessly advertising a different mod.



    Quote Originally Posted by Menidas View Post
    The only concern I have is with a phalanx unit defending walls in EB II. Considering the (good) design decision to take away their secondary weapons to maintain a more believable unit cohesion, a phalanx unit also uses their spears when defending walls (as seen in one of the two EB II AARs).

    This would be the only point in time to see them switch to their secondary close range weapons, as it would make for more realism and less imbalanced fights. But maybe I'm mistaken and they can actually be defeated on walls, we'll see post-release I suppose.
    I can remember reading a post for some other M2TW mod some time ago, where pikes had they're secondary weapon removed (similar to phalanxes in EB2). And it mentioned that these pikes are OP, if used on walls. So that might be a problem. As player one could obstain from using them on walls, I guess. The AI is a different matter.

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