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Thread: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

  1. #201
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    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipO'Hayda View Post
    DURING THE WARS OF THE ROSES (1413-1485)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Henry V., who ascended the throne in 1418, was so engrossed with France that he gave hardly any attention to Ireland; so that there was little or no change in Irish affairs during his reign; and there was strife everywhere.Matters at last looked so serious that in 1414 the king sent over an able and active military rnan as lord lieutenant, Sir John Talbot Lord Furnival, subsequently earl of Shrewsbury, who became greatly distinguished in the French wars. He made a vigorous circuit round the Pale, and reduced O'Moore, Mac Mahon, O'Hanlon, and O'Neill. But this brought the Palesmen more evil than good; for the relief was only temporary; and when the brilliant exploits were all over he subjected them, in violation of the Statute of Kilkenny, to coyne and livery, having no other way of paying his soldiers. No sooner had he left than the Irish resumed their attacks, and for years incessantly harried and worried the miserable Pales-men, except indeed when kept quiet in some small degree by the payment of black rent. The accession of Henry VI, in 1422, made no improvement in the country, which continued to be everywhere torn by strife. Ireland was now indeed, and for generations before and after, in a far worse condition than at any time under native management, even during the anarchical period after the battle of Clontarf.The people of the Pale probably fared neither better nor worse than those of the rest of the country. But to add to their misfortunes, there arose, about the time of the king's accession, a deadly quarrel between the Butlers, headed by the carl of Ormond, and the Talbots, headed by Richard Talbot archbishop of Dublin and his brother Lord Furnival, who came twice again to Ireland as lord lieutenant. This feud was so violent that it put a stop to almost all government business for many years.

    Meantime in 1423 the Irish of Ulster made a terrible raid on Louth and Meath, defeated the army sent against them, and carried off great booty; till at last the inhabitants had to buy peace by agreeing to pay black rent.
    In 1449 Richard Plantagenet duke of York, a prince of the royal blood and heir to the throne of England, was appointed lord lieutenant for ten years. He won the affections of the Irish both of native and English descent, treating them with fairness and consideration.. In an act of parliament of this time we have a frightful picture of the condition of the colonists of the Pale. In time of harvest companies of the soldiers were in the habit of going with their wives, children, servants, and friends, sometimes to the number of a hundred, to the farmers' houses, eating and drinking, and paying for nothing. They robbed and sometimes killed the tenants and husbandmen; and their horses were turned out to graze in the meadows and in the ripe corn, ruining all the harvest.. The parliament held by the duke in 1449, asserted for the first time the independence of the Irish legislature: that they had a right to a separate coinage, and that they were absolutely free from all laws except those passed by the lords and commons of Ireland.. The duke had not been in Ireland for more than a year when Jack Cade's rebellion broke out; on which he went to England in 1451 to look after his own interests.. For the past century and a half the English kings had been so taken up with wars in France, Scotland, and Wales, that they had little leisure to attend to Ireland. Accordingly we have seen the Irish encroaching, the Pale growing smaller, and the people of the settlement more oppressed and more miserable year by year.But now about this time—1454—began in England the tremendous struggle between the houses of York and Lancaster, commonly known as the Wars of the Roses, which lasted for about thirty years, and during which the colony fared worse than ever. The Geraldines sided with the house of York, and the Butlers with the house of Lancaster; and they went to England with many others of the Anglo-Irish to take part in the battles. Then the Irish rose up everywhere, overran the lands of the settlers, and took back whole districts. The Pale became smaller than ever, till it included only the county Louth and about half those of Dublin Meath and Kildare. At one time not more than 200 men could be got together to defend it.The duke of York was at last defeated at the battle of Wakefield in 1460, where fell a great part of the Anglo-Irish nobility and gentry; and he himself was taken and beheaded on the battlefield. The very next year, however—1461—witnessed the triumph of the Yorkists; and the duke's eldest son was proclaimed king of England as Edward IV., the first king of the house of York.. The Geraldines, both of Desmond and Kildare, were now in high favour, while the Butlers were in disgrace. These two factions enacted a sort of miniature of the Wars of the Roses in Ireland. In 1462 they fought a battle at Pilltown in Kilkenny, where the Butlers were defeated and 400 or 500 of their men killed. As a curious illustration of how completely these Anglo-Irish families had adopted the Irish language and customs, it is worthy of mention that the ransom of Mac Richard Butler, who had been taken prisoner in the battle, was two Irish manuscripts, the Psalter of Cashel and the Book of Carrick. A fragment of the Psalter of Cashel is still preserved in the Bodleian Library in Oxford, and in one of its pages is written a record of this transaction. Thomas the eighth earl of Desmond—the Great Earl as he was called—was appointed lord deputy, in 1463, under his godson the young duke of Clarence, the king's brother, who though appointed lord lieutenant, never came to Ireland. Desmond was well received by the Irish of both races. His love for learning is shown by the fact that he founded the college of Youghal, which was richly endowed by him and his successors; also a university in Drogheda; but this latter project fell to the ground for want of funds.. The Irish parliament passed an act in 1465 that every Irishman dwelling in the Pale was to dress and shave like the English, and take an English surname:—from some town as Trim, Sutton, Cork; or of a color as Black, Brown; or of some calling, as Smith, Carpenter, etc., on pain of forfeiture of his goods. Another and more mischievous measure forbade ships from fishing in the seas of Irish countries, because the dues went to make the Irish people prosperous and strong. But the worst enactment of all was one providing that it was lawful to decapitate thieves found robbing "or going or coming anywhere" unless they had an Englishman in their company. And whoever did so, on bringing the head to the mayor of the nearest town, was licensed to levy a good sum off the barony.This put it in the power of any evil-minded person to kill the first Irishman he met, pretending he was a thief, and to raise money on his head. This indeed was not the intention of the legislators; the act was merely a desperate attempt to keep down marauders who swarmed at this time all through the Pale.. With all the earl of Desmond's popularity he was unable to restore tranquillity to the distracted country. He was defeated in open fight in 1466 by his own brother-in-law O'Conor of Offaly, who took him prisoner and confined him in Carbury castle in Kildare; from which however he was rescued in a few days by the people of Dublin. Neither was he able to prevent the septs from ravaging the Pale.
    . The Great Earl was struck down in the midst of his career by an act of base treachery under the guise of law. He was first replaced in 1467 by John Tiptoft earl of Worcester—"the Butcher" as he was called from his cruelty—who came determined to ruin him. Acting on the secret instructions of the queen, he caused the earls of Desmond and Kildare to be arrested; and had them attainted for exacting coyne and livery, and for making alliance with the Irish, contrary to the Statute of Kilkenny. Desmond was at once executed; Kildare was pardoned; and "the Butcher" returned to England, where he was himself executed soon after.

    Ireland's role
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    Map of Ireland
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    Thanks! I'm glad my use of the Pale is somewhat accurate to your own research. I wasn't sure.

  2. #202
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    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    Quote Originally Posted by GeMiNi][SaNDy View Post
    k/t, on all illustrations knights or men-at-arms in general overwhelmingly have plate armour without coats. This is something specific to the late 15th century. However, for the sake of identification purposes on battlefield i plan to have 1-2 coats out of 6-7 variations. Each coat will consist of 2 colors - primary and secondary. This is a game after all, and gameplay should not be sacrificed for the sake of historical accuracy.

    I like the approach of RC. And i believe feudal troops should have slower replenish rates, but come at little cost and be available at main settlement building (i.e. city walls or castle level). In 15th century professional armies were making up the bulk. These should have high upkeep and be recruited from barracks, which require development (investment into barrack upgrades). However accurate or inaccurate it is historically - the buildings and their development in M2TW are a big part of gameplay.

    Sandy
    Actually, most of the troops will be found on the map at start and recruitment pools will be small. Mercs are the only troop types that appear quickly, but can't be replenished in most places. It'll take some testing, but my hope is to make casualty rates a critical strategy matter.

    Sorry I'm not posting much just now. I'm touching base from an office in NYC. Be back home for the holidays.

  3. #203

    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    Those professional units would be classified as Early Professional in RR. I've moved away from having such units recruitable from barracks, since they were hired already trained. I put them in the Town Hall line instead.

    We could also have a building called Fiefs, which allows you to recruit Feudal units, but reduces the income of the settlement to represent the land you gave away to nobles.

  4. #204

    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    I just discovered this mod today...it looks so awesome! any estimate when it will be ready?

  5. #205
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    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    Quote Originally Posted by GeMiNi][SaNDy View Post
    I noticed in some illustrations some helmets have round disks on sides. How accurate is that? Are men-at-arms and knights separate units? I believe they could have some stat differences, but in reality how different were they combat-wise and cost-wise? Was the system still feudal (free troops)? I am asking because i need to think of ways to make them look different. One option is to make men-at-arms look more plain than knights, but how accurate is that? We need to think of what is the full list of units and what weapons/animations they will be using. Men-at-arms can use swords or poleaxes, be on foot or mounted.
    Sandy
    Restricting your modeling choices to the Perry Miniatures greens I shared goes a long way. But in general you'll find that 'knights' should have shinier and less clunky armor. More intimately, 'knights' armor was taylor fitted. So the body model might be best described slightly thinner, and lithe. The notion that 'knights' might be bulkier than MAA is backwards; it is the knights who had more athletic and agile abilities and equipment, and the MAA who blundered forward like tanks, relying on their metal to protect them.

  6. #206
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    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    Quote Originally Posted by nickrica View Post
    I just discovered this mod today...it looks so awesome! any estimate when it will be ready?
    Ironic. It has a relatively short distance to go. The unit list is small. The scripting is going to be lean. But our team is few, and my hours are getting squeezed. If I can get enough input from new team members who use banner links to this thread, then the next beta will be made along with a request for a hosted mod slot. With a hosted mod slot, the mod may see much more traffic and subsequent support.

    The short answer to your question is that we could be just a couple months away from the next beta.

  7. #207

    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    Considering men-at-arms were professional soldiers, is it actually true they were bulky and reliant on their armour alone rather than on their skill and their armour? Where did you read this? It doesn't sound right.

  8. #208
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    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    Quote Originally Posted by k/t View Post
    Considering men-at-arms were professional soldiers, is it actually true they were bulky and reliant on their armour alone rather than on their skill and their armour? Where did you read this? It doesn't sound right.
    When compared to Knights, who were men of property that had their armor made for them, and chose their preferred weapons to fight with. Reenactors who have their gothic armor tailor fitted, but enter the field as MAA are kinda mistaken. Reenactors who purchase armor kits in standard sizes, but choose to enter the field as 'Knights' are equally wrong.

    Also, I'm pretty sure Knights did not go to battle in any sort of partial arrangements, but only full.

  9. #209

    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    This is one mod I´m really looking forward to.

    I´m curious why there hasn´t been one on the Wars of the Roses - or, for that matter, the second half of the 15th centry, including the Swiss and Burgundy wars as well as the Wars of the Roses - yet.

    The unit previews look great as well. To differentiate between Men-at-Arms and knights optically, perhaps it might be a good idea to give the knights hand-and-half swords. It would make it easier to identify them rather than look for the differences in the armour, or however Sandy intends to make them (other than great, of course, based on what I´ve seen before).

    So, the best of luck, and I´m looking forward to it.
    Life is a sequence of missed opportunities

  10. #210

    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    hows progress coming on the mod? still looking forward to it!

  11. #211
    Live2sculpt's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    Quote Originally Posted by nickrica View Post
    hows progress coming on the mod? still looking forward to it!
    For my part, I got called over to work in NYC on a couple of occasions, and have since been doing the holiday thing with family. January looks to be busy as well, but I should be able to slip freebie work into the studio.

  12. #212

    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    Swords would have been secondary, if not tertiary, weapons for dismounted knights and men-at-arms. Poleaxes would have been the first choice. Warhammers and maces would have been running for second place.

    Maybe a unit with each kind of weapon would be cool.

    I still think men-at-arms, as professional soldiers, would have good equipment, especially after they had been in some battles.

  13. #213
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    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    Noice mod
    Surprised how I haven't noticed it earlier.


    Quote Originally Posted by k/t View Post
    Swords would have been secondary, if not tertiary, weapons for dismounted knights and men-at-arms. Poleaxes would have been the first choice. Warhammers and maces would have been running for second place.
    As illogical as that would seem to us in modern times, usage of swords(longswords) as primary weapons was for some reason far more common than most people think/like to admit in the late medieval period;

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._retouched.jpg
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...23_fol150r.jpg
    http://www.thearma.org/essays/downonone.jpg
    http://www.thearma.org/essays/FeetsS...ounds_1477.jpg
    http://www.thearma.org/essays/cent/early15thFrench1.JPG


    I know that pictures don't present the ultimate historical argument, but there is a theory that the notorious popularity of the longsword specifically was due to its versatile nature in which a soldier on the battlefield could equally deal with;

    -an unarmored opponent;
    http://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg...t_to_webp=true
    https://grauenwolf.files.wordpress.c...mage_thumb.png

    -an armored opponent;
    http://i.imgur.com/0CrcOz7.jpg
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...tein)_107v.jpg
    http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/imported_ass...alf_medium.jpg
    http://www.swordsmanship.ca/wp-conte...3/02/grip2.png

    ...in just a simple one second switch of using the same weapon in a different way.

    The longsword was basically a sword, military pick, warhammer, mace and shortspear all merged into a single lightweight, balanced and versatile battlefield weapon.

    Now, I don't propose that the longsword was the main battlefield weapon of the time(especially not for entire units of men), I was just arguing that it is often neglected and portrayed as an exclusively sidearm/ceremonial weapon...which is obviously not true.
    Last edited by +Marius+; January 13, 2015 at 10:27 PM.

  14. #214
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    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    Quote Originally Posted by Marius Marich View Post
    The longsword was basically a sword, military pick, warhammer, mace and shortspear all merged into a single lightweight, balanced and versatile battlefield weapon.
    Now, I don't propose that the longsword was the main battlefield weapon of the time(especially not for entire units of men), I was just arguing that it is often neglected and portrayed as an exclusively sidearm/ceremonial weapon...which is obviously not true.
    The affection for using the hammer to bash armored opponents seemed to be a particularly English thing. It also seemed that swords were used more by actual knights. Gemini][Sandy will be doing his own thing, but I'm hoping that he uses swords with the command units and knights.

    BTW, I still need to replace the resources models with custom town models. Given your own experience, would you care to help contribute that aspect to B&R?

  15. #215

    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    Good to be back. These kinds of discussions keep us moving. The weapons units use is not too important at the moments as they can be swapped easily. However, we will need this settled at some point since each unit can use only one type of animation (sword, mace, poleaxe etc). Unfortunately i still haven't gotten the working version of the mod. But i do have 3 levels of basic armour models done, which you guys have already seen. I am planning to make some minor improvements, including some new weapons. We could use vanilla horses for now. There are still cannons to do, which should be straight forward. I will need to have my hands on the working folder soon to make further progress. The rest is just copy/pasting of textures with different main and secondary colors and tons of text-editing. Sooner or later we will need a full list of factions with primary and secondary colors. For now i will try finish the list of units Live2Sculpt has sent me. Some new stuff coming soon. The rest of unit stats, balancing, coding into barracks etc is not my part, i think. Its tedious but straight forward. Requires tons of testing though (much later). Once the unit lists and colors are finalized i will provide all the icons and sprites.

    As for the settlement models, i am comfortable with making practically any object on stratmap. In my own project i have already changed roads, settlements, rivers (much wider now) etc. Its on halt now, i want to finish this first. You can change practically anything. Its amazing how everything is just... there. Even trading carts, the green movement arrow (can be changed in shape and color etc...). The last couple of months i have been focusing on learning other aspects of modding (text-editing most of the stuff, some scripting, and perfecting mapping skills).

    As for the hosting we may consider dropbox or any other file-sharing/cloud solution. There are websites like sourcefourge for devs of free projects like ours.

    Sandy
    Last edited by G|I|Sandy; January 14, 2015 at 08:46 AM.

  16. #216
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    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    Quote Originally Posted by Live2sculpt View Post
    The affection for using the hammer to bash armored opponents seemed to be a particularly English thing.
    Well not really, war hammers and maces were present in all places where plate armor was worn, even the Ottomans used them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Live2sculpt View Post
    It also seemed that swords were used more by actual knights.
    Well yes, initially.
    However as time went on and longswords became cheaper, longswords became popular with everyone who could afford them and depictions of common folk using longswords against men at arms are fairly common;

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_TTsFt0Ckps...raubrunnen.jpg

    Also, depictions mostly show longswords being used in par with polearms when regarding formations;

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9AkPH-6Yz0...0/32010310.jpg

    sort of a combined arms units of swordsmen and polearms...men.

    However, like Gemini][Sandy said, each unit only has a single type of melee animation available so combined weapons units are difficult to implement, unless the animation for the greatsword is used for the warhammers/polearms as well...which should not look that bad at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Live2sculpt View Post
    BTW, I still need to replace the resources models with custom town models. Given your own experience, would you care to help contribute that aspect to B&R?
    Do you mean custom battle settlements or models for the strat map?
    The first one can be done by no more than 1-4 people on this entire forum while the second one I could help but only if I manage to find some decent free time during the next couple of weeks.
    I'm still bogged down at properly implementing some of my own stuff
    Last edited by +Marius+; January 14, 2015 at 10:33 AM.

  17. #217

    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    Hi guys!
    Blood & Roses great mod! Where i can download them? alpha? Thanks


  18. #218
    Live2sculpt's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    Quote Originally Posted by Darhan View Post
    Hi guys!
    Blood & Roses great mod! Where i can download them? alpha? Thanks
    We will have a development copy up in a few weeks. But it might not be equipped with a decent installer.

  19. #219

    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    Ok. we will wait!

  20. #220
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    Default Re: Blood & Roses; A Campaign Mod for the War of the Roses Era

    Does this mod need any help? I am up for offering any scripting assistance/EDU/EDB/EDA/EDCT, I can also make historical battles and do a lot map editing.
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