Jesus and Muhammad

[Hakkapeliitta]

I think even from the Jewish-Christian concept Jesus was a messiah except that his people at that time were expecting someone different, someone to free them from Roman occupation. They were expecting a warrior from the get go and were dissapointed when they saw that Jesus is only to lead them spiritually, rather than physically.

They may have forgot that you must be spiritually strong first before you becomes physically strong, just like Moses few generations ago. If they have rather wait than turn back on him immediately Jesus probably be able to be the messiah like the one the dream of.

Jesus was a nobody compared to Saul, David, or Salomon. Muhammad is a peer to them. Only difference is that Muhammad never claimed to be the Messias. Jesus was more like the prophets in the Old Testament really.

[AngryTitusPullo]

Jesus was a nobody compared to Saul, David, or Salomon. Muhammad is a peer to them. Only difference is that Muhammad never claimed to be the Messias. Jesus was more like the prophets in the Old Testament really.

He wasn't given the chance. I'm sure is he managed longer then he'll probably be like Muhammad, both as spiritual and community leader.

[Divine Augustus]

South East India, lmaoooooooooooooooo. Yikes and that proves Islam sent prophets everywhere, or does it not prove that Islam spread its wings through trade routes from India in which Muslims have been invading and setup a foothold( Mughals). I admit Islam largely did come to Indonesia peacefully.

Do not think I'm ignorant of Islam I have studied Islam for 2 years and I, am quite competent when it comes to scripture , fiqh, and the histories of Bukhari, and Dawud, the idea that many prophets came to the world to spread Islam is preposterous and naive and their is absolutely no evidence to assert this proof other than a few Quotes from the Quran.

[Tankbustaz]

This proves that you know jack- about Indian history.

[sumskilz]

Have you ever heard how the Jews were hounded upon, were driven into ghettos, had their possessions confiscated? That was how the Jews were treated prior to the holocaust. The actual holocaust was really just the culmination of a millennia long persecutiont of Jews in the hands of Christians.

That is true to an extent, but strangely it was also a result of the Enlightenment. Prior to that, there was no "Jewish Question" for there to be a "Final Solution" to, and "science" in the service of ideology also played a huge role. You can't really blame the Holocaust on Christianity any more or less than you can blame European culture on Christianity.

[AngryTitusPullo]

South East India, lmaoooooooooooooooo. Yikes and that proves Islam sent prophets everywhere, or does it not prove that Islam spread its wings through trade routes from India in which Muslims have been invading and setup a foothold( Mughals). I admit Islam largely did come to Indonesia peacefully.

Do not think I'm ignorant of Islam I have studied Islam for 2 years and I, am quite competent when it comes to scripture , fiqh, and the histories of Bukhari, and Dawud, the idea that many prophets came to the world to spread Islam is preposterous and naive and their is absolutely no evidence to assert this proof other than a few Quotes from the Quran.

What proofs do you need ? Just find some similarities between all religions from all corners of the world. Just find similarities between Islam and ancient Greek religion, Hindu religion etc. Maybe you can dismiss it as coincidence though.

[SomaaTheLion]

What do you mean by mercy? I feel like you're missing the point of his question, paradise could be a forgone conclusion. Why have there be a test to achieve it?

Why do you have to work hard to be a millionaire? It's the same. You reap what you sow.

[Lazarus]

Why do you have to work hard to be a millionaire? It's the same. You reap what you sow.

Not exactly, because money is limited and therefore there is competition to acquire it. Gods doling out paradise(s) aren't bound by such restrictions.

[Divine Augustus]

So your logic is the proof between similarities of religion is the proof of god sending prophets preaching Islam. This is why I have problems with Islam the inherent superiority complex that stems from it, could of not been that the polytheistic religions of the Assyrians were distinct and untouched by this notion of monotheism. Could it not also be the fact that later religions such as Christianity/Judaism copied these religions out right? whilst Islam copied which is definitive copied outright both Judaism/Christianity?

2nd Question, Please enlighten me on the similarities between Greek paganism?

Islamic monotheism cause the last time I checked Islam is pretty clear on butchering those who are pagans on the crime of Shirk. If you cannot answer please go to a local Imam and pose this thought of Islam being similar religions of ancient Greece.

It's not that Islam is similar it is that Muhammad outright copied and pasted various quotes of the Talmud, Bible, Zoroastrian proverbs/maxims and practices (such as praying 5 times a day) and then put it forth as his own.

[SomaaTheLion]

Not exactly, because money is limited and therefore there is competition to acquire it. Gods doling out paradise(s) aren't bound by such restrictions.

Indeed, it is out of his mercy that everyone has the chance to enter heaven but one has to work for it by believing in God, praying, doing righteous deeds etc.

So your logic is the proof between similarities of religion is the proof of god sending prophets preaching Islam. This is why I have problems with Islam the inherent superiority complex that stems from it, could of not been that the polytheistic religions of the Assyrians were distinct and untouched by this notion of monotheism. Could it not also be the fact that later religions such as Christianity/Judaism copied these religions out right? whilst Islam copied which is definitive copied outright both Judaism/Christianity?

2nd Question, Please enlighten me on the similarities between Greek paganism?

Islamic monotheism cause the last time I checked Islam is pretty clear on butchering those who are pagans on the crime of Shirk. If you cannot answer please go to a local Imam and pose this thought of Islam being similar religions of ancient Greece.

It's not that Islam is similar it is that Muhammad outright copied and pasted various quotes of the Talmud, Bible, Zoroastrian proverbs/maxims and practices (such as praying 5 times a day) and then put it forth as his own.

I am sorry to intrude on your discussion with LestaT but I wanted to clarify something: According to Mohamed pbuh and the Quran, God has sent many prophets across the different ages of mankind and all have been spreading the ideologies of Islam. Now, you will say that Islam as we know it today only appeared around 15 centuries ago.. and you are correct.. but what is the meaning of Islam? Islam literally means surrender to God. Earlier prophets had preached the same idea that there only is one God and He is our maker worthy of our worship and that it is our duty to work hard to attain paradise (e.g. Ibrahim, Jesus, Moses peace be upon them). And when God saw that humanity was ready to receive the final message, He sent Mohamed pbuh to conclude the list of countless prophets that roamed the earth with the teachings of Islam as we know it today. We Muslims believe that the untampered versions of the Torah and Bible are part of Islam as a whole. I hope I have cleared any misunderstandings and please feel free to ask any further questions and I will answer them to the best of my abilities.

[Nesimî]

Some of the sufi schools seem to parallel the Hegelian idea of Geist coming to know itself. Wujood (existence) wished to be known, and therefore created humans, which have a similar capability of knowledge.

[sumskilz]

Some of the sufi schools seem to parallel the Hegelian idea of Geist coming to know itself.

Probably not a coincidence, they both were influenced by Neoplatonist ideas.

[SomaaTheLion]

So your logic is the proof between similarities of religion is the proof of god sending prophets preaching Islam. This is why I have problems with Islam the inherent superiority complex that stems from it, could of not been that the polytheistic religions of the Assyrians were distinct and untouched by this notion of monotheism. Could it not also be the fact that later religions such as Christianity/Judaism copied these religions out right? whilst Islam copied which is definitive copied outright both Judaism/Christianity?

2nd Question, Please enlighten me on the similarities between Greek paganism?

Islamic monotheism cause the last time I checked Islam is pretty clear on butchering those who are pagans on the crime of Shirk. If you cannot answer please go to a local Imam and pose this thought of Islam being similar religions of ancient Greece.

It's not that Islam is similar it is that Muhammad outright copied and pasted various quotes of the Talmud, Bible, Zoroastrian proverbs/maxims and practices (such as praying 5 times a day) and then put it forth as his own.

Indeed, it is out of his mercy that everyone has the chance to enter heaven but one has to work for it by believing in God, praying, doing righteous deeds etc.


I am sorry to intrude on your discussion with LestaT but I wanted to clarify something: According to Mohamed pbuh and the Quran, God has sent many prophets across the different ages of mankind and all have been spreading the ideologies of Islam. Now, you will say that Islam as we know it today only appeared around 15 centuries ago.. and you are correct.. but what is the meaning of Islam? Islam literally means surrender to God. Earlier prophets had preached the same idea that there only is one God and He is our maker worthy of our worship and that it is our duty to work hard to attain paradise (e.g. Ibrahim, Jesus, Moses peace be upon them). And when God saw that humanity was ready to receive the final message, He sent Mohamed pbuh to conclude the list of countless prophets that roamed the earth with the teachings of Islam as we know it today. We Muslims believe that the untampered versions of the Torah and Bible are part of Islam as a whole. I hope I have cleared any misunderstandings and please feel free to ask any further questions and I will answer them to the best of my abilities.

If you can watch this video it explains the relationship between Islam, Judaism and Christianity in the islamic POV from 38:15 by Ahmed Deedat.

[Divine Augustus]

I am familiar with Ahmed Deedat but still does not answer the clear facts that the commandments the religion of Judaism and many teachings of Abraham religion are from the teachings of Sumerian, Gilgamesh, and later philosophies of Plato.

From these pagan teachings their is nothing fundamentally close in practice to them, other than say for example the code of Hammurabi which in it's self is a code of rights/law for governing society which has a more secular aspect to it, While the ten commandments being of divine origin are needed to be followed to have a spiritual aspect to it.


I am not doubting the fact that these religions are not similar which they are, I'm doubting the fact that these religions claim to be the origin from the premise of the Quran's verses that 100k prophets were sent through man kind, which clearly is not the case.

You also not answered by question on the concepts of Zoroastrianism which Islam clearly used and yet Zoroastrians through history were repetitively brutalized and thought of to be pagans, what it comes down to is, Why isn't Zoroastrianism considered to be the head religion whilst Islam (including christianity/judaism) remain distinct.

[SomaaTheLion]

I am familiar with Ahmed Deedat but still does not answer the clear facts that the commandments the religion of Judaism and many teachings of Abraham religion are from the teachings of Sumerian, Gilgamesh, and later philosophies of Plato.

From these pagan teachings their is nothing fundamentally close in practice to them, other than say for example the code of Hammurabi which in it's self is a code of rights/law for governing society which has a more secular aspect to it, While the ten commandments being of divine origin are needed to be followed to have a spiritual aspect to it.


I am not doubting the fact that these religions are not similar which they are, I'm doubting the fact that these religions claim to be the origin from the premise of the Quran's verses that 100k prophets were sent through man kind, which clearly is not the case.

You also not answered by question on the concepts of Zoroastrianism which Islam clearly used and yet Zoroastrians through history were repetitively brutalized and thought of to be pagans, what it comes down to is, Why isn't Zoroastrianism considered to be the head religion whilst Islam (including christianity/judaism) remain distinct.

I am honestly not qualified to answer your question but I'll do my best. What I know is that there is a reported hadith (quotation) in which Mohamed pbuh says that the number of prophets God has sent is around 124 000. So it might be that Zoroaster was a prophet of God or it might not be. The Quran only mentioned 25 prophets by name. Your hypothesis that Zoroastrianism should be considered the "head religion" relies on the alleged fact that Zoroaster was indeed a prophet. If it is true that Zoroaster was a prophet then Zoroastrianism could fall under the category of Islam which encompasses all godsent messages.

[AngryTitusPullo]

Don't forget Siddhārtha too.

So your logic is the proof between similarities of religion is the proof of god sending prophets preaching Islam. This is why I have problems with Islam the inherent superiority complex that stems from it, could of not been that the polytheistic religions of the Assyrians were distinct and untouched by this notion of monotheism. Could it not also be the fact that later religions such as Christianity/Judaism copied these religions out right? whilst Islam copied which is definitive copied outright both Judaism/Christianity?

2nd Question, Please enlighten me on the similarities between Greek paganism?

Islamic monotheism cause the last time I checked Islam is pretty clear on butchering those who are pagans on the crime of Shirk. If you cannot answer please go to a local Imam and pose this thought of Islam being similar religions of ancient Greece.

It's not that Islam is similar it is that Muhammad outright copied and pasted various quotes of the Talmud, Bible, Zoroastrian proverbs/maxims and practices (such as praying 5 times a day) and then put it forth as his own.

You are actually kind of answered your own question. Maybe you haven't seen it yet. In any case I am not the right person to make you see, if that is indeed your intention.

[Divine Augustus]

No it isnt their is a difference between similarities and stolen outright. I do not find it a coincidence that a man created a new religion (whether or not they are an extension of christianity and judaism is arguable) claims it is distinct from other, then has the audacity too persecute and belittle other teachings.

[Mangalore]

...
God created us out of his infinite mercy. We don't need to exist. But now that we exist, we have a shot at attaining paradise.

So you say he did it randomly without intent and then made up crap rules afterwards so not everyone gets to have fun on the fairground ride? Way to go.

Why would he create beings capable to do evil in his eyes in the first place? Christians claim self determination but you have to do a lot of mental acrobatics to make that work with the kind of God or Allay proposed by either Islam or Christianity. It still boils down to a boy with an ant farm.

[SomaaTheLion]

So you say he did it randomly without intent and then made up crap rules afterwards so not everyone gets to have fun on the fairground ride? Way to go.

No, God did not create us randomly.. you're twisting my words. God created us so that we worship him and get the chance to enter heaven.

Thus, the essential purpose for which humankind was created is the worship of God. However, the Almighty is not in need of human worship. He did not create human beings out of a need on His part. If not a single human worshipped God, it would not diminish His glory in any way, and if all of humankind worshipped Him, it would not increase His glory in any way. God is perfect. He alone exists without any needs. All created beings have needs. Consequently, it is humankind that needs to worship God.
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/336/

Could you please mention some of these "crap rules"?

Why would he create beings capable to do evil in his eyes in the first place? Christians claim self determination but you have to do a lot of mental acrobatics to make that work with the kind of God or Allay proposed by either Islam or Christianity. It still boils down to a boy with an ant farm.

Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not." Holy Quran 2:30

http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-t...the-world.html

[Mangalore]

No, God did not create us randomly.. you're twisting my words. God created us so that we worship him and get the chance to enter heaven.
...

Which is just a random impulse. The need for someone to worship him is plain vanity, the red taping that the created beings must follow rules to enter heaven is being evil. Otherwise he'd create the beings to do what he needs with no complaining if they don't do what he wants. He supposedly designed the whole act so he is actually responsible for all the evil deeds by his creation.

Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not." Holy Quran 2:30

Now that is perfect theology because it's weasle wording that says nothing.