Lamellar armour and armours in Western Europe

[Polycarpe]

Good day to all, I'm currently working on a Western European mod for M2TW, War of the West and I'm making an important research on armours which later I'll release a modding resource for unit creation for the EDU.

• Now onto the topic, Lamellar armours and body part protection was quite used in Eastern Europe, the Romans (Byzantine) and the Middle Eastern factions. But I wonder if is was popular in Western Europe since in this part of the world, the mail (I know it was used worldwide) was a predominant armor but wonder if first it was used.
• The mod's time frame is from 1245 to 1550 just to make a small note which may affect the topic.
• How Lamellar armour could be compared to other armours? Of course, it gives more protection than Gambeson and Coat of Plate (the predecessor of the brigandine, not the transitional armour) but how can we compared it to mail and scale armour?
• What was the availability (if any) of the lamellar armour and which culture (faction pseaking) would have used it?

I would like to hear your opinion on that matter and at the same time it will helps me to continue to work on my guideline.

Regards and fire away.

[RollingWave]

Lamellar armour is a tricky subject because...

1. it's hard to distinguish from scale armour, you can not really seperate them base on findings (because the leather under padding of the scale will have surely rotted away) or painting (because from appearance they look basically the same)

2. is a really wide range of armour, some lamellar were made from leather, and there were a great variety in the the coverage and metal quality etc...

We know that in the era of Charelmagne Scale armour was the norm, maile became more prominent again later on. the Normans especially in Sicily adopted some Scale / Lamellar after their conquest there.

In abosalute terms, high quality iron lamellar is probably better than maile in terms of protection, but there's a catch, it's much harder to make lamellar armour that cover the whole body compare to maile. heavy lamellar were usually a complex set of several pieces. take for example this 10th-12th century Song dynasty military manuel depicting it's standard lamellar armour.

lighter version


heavier version


It doens't take a rocket scientist to see that both version will not cover your lower limbs, and probably have some holes in your arm pit / neck and other joint areas but that's the natural limitation of the armour for obvious reasons.

however, in abosalute terms of "protection of something hitting directly against the armour" then lamellar armour such as those was probably better than the comparable heavy Maile of the similar era, the reason beging that by nature of being a bunch of rings strung together, maile naturally have holes in between and is suspect to penetration attacks with enough force on them. the rings are usually also of softer iron (so they can be shaped into rings) and obviously isn't incrediabbly thick itself, thus is suspect to bending and deformation. it's also part of it's protective attribute (since the deformation means it's abosrbing the shock instead of the wearer) but at the same time it means a thrust with enough force (or enough repeated thrusts) will eventually punch through the rings.

meanwhile, lamellar have no such problem, to thrust through a lamellar armour means you'll need to in the most ideal situation punch through a metal plate, although lamellar plate is obviously usually thiner than plates of plate armour, being many plates joined together means that when struck they'll usually give and bend somewhat become becomming hard because of the other plates holding it in place, thus increasing it's protective value even more. Some extremely complex designs like the mountain pattern (The star scale shape ) design of late Chinese lamellar that you see in the above picture means that there will also be a lot of angels and thus very hard to land a direct blow on it.

So in short, both are virtually invunerable to slashing attacks, and vunerable to blunt onces (i've read that lamellar is better against blunt too though I'm not sure of the scientific theory behind it), but lamellar is generally stronger against piercing attacks like spear thrust and arrows.

So what the downside of lamellar?

A. it's heavy: the Song picture is a decent demonstration, it's not single piece like maile, and the ring design usually helps to lighten the weight somewhat. so it's quite heavy to wear and the weight distrubtion is usually ppor.

B. the strings holding the armour together is vunerable to being broken from cuts or wear and tear, so sometimes holes could appear mid battle, though better designs tend to hide the strings better.

C. it leaves more exposed areas than heavy Maile. particularly the lower limbs (a lot of warriors will have their own arm / leg guard though)

[Polycarpe]

A very interesting description mate for the Lamellar +rep.

So I'll just write the basis of the lamellar armour:

• First it was used in Western Europe but more in East.
• Difficult to distinguish from Scale armour.
• As you said (and agree with), scale armour was the norm in the Dark Age but Lamellar looks to be more in the East than in the very West.
• The Lamellar Armour is superior than most armour in term of protection except plates is superior than it but have vulnerable spots.
• Heavier than mail but logically, comparable weight as scale.

Now let's elaborate more about it

• The lamellar armour maybe widespread but mail in 13th century was more popular in West.
• Does this armour type was expensive? More or less than mail? (Possibly comparable again with Scale)
• Who usually wear those armours? Not the militia I believe (unless it was cheap which I doubt, surely the heavy ones).
• The reinforcing material or arming doublets should have been a leather jerkin due that already the armour is enough heavy and provides protection.

What do you think about these thoughts?

[RollingWave]

Now let's elaborate more about it

• The lamellar armour maybe widespread but mail in 13th century was more popular in West.
• Does this armour type was expensive? More or less than mail? (Possibly comparable again with Scale)
• Who usually wear those armours? Not the militia I believe (unless it was cheap which I doubt, surely the heavy ones).
• The reinforcing material or arming doublets should have been a leather jerkin due that already the armour is enough heavy and provides protection.

What do you think about these thoughts?

Price: price is relative, depending on the production's scale and your access to material, the Song dynasty had basically a industry devoted to armour making so armour wasn't a huge issue for them, the lighter version was basically standard issue armour to all combat units. but if you have to say I'd guess the metal used in a single piece of lamellar armour is probably more. and it used leather or other materials to string together etc... so lamellar armour was probably relatively more expensive though not by a ton.

Who uses : again, this is dependent on the specific area / faction . the Song dynasty had a professional army so every combat men probably had at least a light version, most Byzantium frontline units also had them, and obviously most EE / Middle Eastern Nobels / high end warriors had them. Russian Militias sometimes had them too as some where fairly wealthy merchants.

Most Chinese warriors were depicted to be wearing at least thick cloths on their exposed limbs and some had arm / leg guards, they might have had some leather underneath too though I'm not sure, also it's possible that they had things like paper armour underneath etc. but those things were much less standard issue (then again, even today soliders in Afganistan often get their own extra protection, like ceremic plates inside their kevlar armour, those aren't standard issue either.)

Also, while fighting in formation epxosed areas are usually less of a problem, it's hard to hit with a calculated strike in those situation. your either just thrusting in a general direction or wacking blindly. so the exposed areas are less of a risk in that situation. The general logic I guess is that it's less likely that a wound to the arm / leg will kill you . those armours were designed to try and minimize killing blows, where as Heavy Maile will give you a better chance of going through a fight basically unscratched but might be more at risk of accidently suffering a fatal blow.

[Polycarpe]

So both of us can agree with the fact that Eastern, Asian and Arabian culture did use these armours.

Since you do know a lot about Moors, they surely have used these armours but were more lighter than in Egypt or Turky, did Catholic factions in Iberia have also use it iyo?

[hellheaven1987]

We know that in the era of Charelmagne Scale armour was the norm, maile became more prominent again later on. the Normans especially in Sicily adopted some Scale / Lamellar after their conquest there.

I never read that before, can you give the source?

[VINC.XXIII]

Metallic Scale was rare, reserved to the Carolingian Scholae, and their feudal/provincial equivalents.
Even, not reason to see 200 medium frank warriors with the metalic scale. Only Scholae, captain, generals...
A leather version of the scale was used for medium/high warriors, what formed the core of the carolingian cavalry.

Local versions of the scale armors matching with WotW time frame:
Italy 14th century(middle), for a very complex armor, byzantine influence, expensive. Reserved to professional warriors

Cataluna 14th(end), used by catalans, made in Genua, Toscana, or maybe strict local version

I can tell these infos, though I don't know when these two type of armors started to be used.

[Keyser]

In eastern europe and the middle east though, lamellar armor was often used in conjunction with mail, reinforcing it.
Warriors wore mail armor with lamellar reinforcing it in the torso, thighs, shoulders etc. They also often had bands of metal around the lower arms and legs.
Gambeson could be worn under the armor too.

Western knights tended to use double mail rather, afaik.

In the east, lamellar was used as the main armor, rather than mail. (But some form of mail could be used to cover exposed areas, like with japanese lamellar armors)

Brigandine armor can also be seen as an evolution, or a variation of the concept. It was used heavily in the west and by late spanish moors. It was also used in the middle east, but less. And quite widely in the far east too.

[rrgg]

Chainmail seems to have been overwhelmingly more popular in western Europe. There is even one account where viking was given a coat of scale armor as payment but threw it out and regarded it as a piece of junk.

But as for overall protection and mobility, it depends on a lot of factors other than simply 'being' chainmail or lamellar. For instance the construction of the armor (14 gauge mail rings will provide vastly more protection than 20 gauge metal scales and vise versa) and what is worn underneath it (similarly mail that is worn over multiple layers of leather, wool and linen will provide far more protection against hacking and stabbing than scales worn against bare skin). You can be very well protected in either, for the most part armor just comes down to how much money you are willing to put into it and how much mobility you are willing to lose.

Into the 15th century there are even instructions for 30-layer padded jacks in which "never have been seen half a dozen men killed by stabs or arrow wounds".

[Keyser]

Indeed, the type just indicate a form of construction.
The resistance of the gear would vary with the materials used, the manufacturing methods and the various paddings and other protections worn.

Mail indicate a type, but the protection offered by the armor could vary enormously according to how the rings are closed, the number of rings, how they are placed, the quality of the metal used etc.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I know the Late Romans experimented with forms of Lamellar Armors but I'm not sure how long that lasted. I know the byzantines did into the 6th and 7th centuries.

[Polycarpe]

Scale armour was a sort of "old" type in the 13th century, only cultures with less advancement or due to their taste and if they were poor or not would have a scale armour. For example, The Daryanogion, Welsh Men-at-Arm, were using scale armour instead of chainmail due that chainmail was more expensive than scale and Wales were poor compared to England. Of course it proivdes a decent protection, on certain aspect, even more than a chainmail (if the scale are in metal) against projectile but is more easily damageable.

Western knights tended to use double mail rather, afaik.

Hmm for what I've found in my researches, the western knights would wear an Heavy Mail Hauberk with an arming doublet of Coat of Plates.

Brigandine armor can also be seen as an evolution, or a variation of the concept. It was used heavily in the west and by late spanish moors. It was also used in the middle east, but less. And quite widely in the far east too.

The brigandine is the evolution of coat of Plates. Brigandine appears in Western Europe in the end of the 14th Century. Often combined with an arming doublets of mail of aketon (gambeson doublet), this armour provides a very good protection and at the same time being light.The brigandine was made of rivered small iron plates between layers of felt and canvas.

The Coat of Plates on the other hand was consisted of metal plates rivetted to the inside of a surcoat. The plates did not overlap but the armour is otherwise similar. Very similar to the brigandine except that later one was more refined and the Coat of Plates was a favorite arming doublets and popular with archers.

Both these armours were created often by recycling used heavier metal armours, like cuirasses or lamellar or plates.

But return on the lamellar, so theorically, the Lamellar were't really used in Western Europe.
Let's compare both the scale armour and the Lamellar armour:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

• The one on the left is a beautiful scale armour, the second is a lamellar armour (light one)
• The scale armour have leaf-like scale while the lamellar looks to have rivered rectangle small plates.
• The scale armour looks quite heavy, I doubt a man would wear a mail haubergon (mail doublet) under the scale armour but would rather have a armed coat or leather jerkin. The Lamellar, on the other hand, can be matched with anything and this example is mail.
• I'm not an expert of metallurgy but by comparing both picture, the scale looks more difficult to make and takes more time to do since this one is a complete armour suit (except for legs) while the lamellar looks to be a sort of cuirass based protection.
• The cost will also depends on the material used, both type can have leather instead of metal.

What do you guys think?

[Keyser]

Hmm for what I've found in my researches, the western knights would wear an Heavy Mail Hauberk with an arming doublet of Coat of Plates.

Depend of the period though.

Anyway "Doubled mail" isn't really clear as to what it really was (Doubled number of rings ? Doubled number of rivets fixating the rings ? Two layers of mail ?). Excepted that it was a "heavier" kind of mail.
Jousting hauberk also seems to have been heavier.

A knight clad with a thick gambeson and reinforced mail (doubled or otherwise) would probably have been already really well armored and protected.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

This style posted above I recognize as being in both Roman, Byzantine, and Sassanid use.

[Ancient Aliens]

To answer your question, yes. Lamellar was used in Western Europe, it's frequency depending on the region and era in discussion. In the Early Middle Ages, the Franks (including both the Merovingians and Carolingians), Lombards, Avars, Turks, Eastern Romans, and Huns all used lamellar very frequently. The infantry that Charles Martel used in the Battle of Poitiers were armored very similar to the infantry used by his opponents, the Arabic Umayyads. In the High Middle Ages (which I am assuming you are basing your work around) the farther east you got, in the more widely used lamellar armor was. Lamellar was widely used in the Rus, Poland, and Hungary. It was also used with some frequency by Italians and Normans, due to their contact with the Middle East. It is also worth mentioning that Crusaders and Crusader States very frequently used lamellar armor to supplement or even replace mail. In the 13th century, because of the influence of the Mongols, there was a ressurgence of lamellar in Poland, Germany, Hungary, and the Rus. By the mid 14th century, the use of lamellar armor began to dwindle in Western Europe because of the advent of plated armors.

Lamellar is very similar to scale, and provides similar protection. Lamellar was capable of absorbing more shock than mail or double mail, and was much less costly than scale, so it proved to be more popular. Soldiers in these eras were said to have prefered lamellar to many types of armor, as the individual plates were much more easily replaced and repaired than any other armor type.

[Polycarpe]

Very interesting, brief, direct and almost all the info is there. +rep.

The followign is to try to enumerate those who did use the lamellar and in a timeframe of 13th Century and +

So basically, in Western Europe that did use the lamellar armour:
Hungary, Poland, Sicily and Italian States.

Those who didn't uses the lamellar but instead used Scale armour:
England, France, Scotland, HRE, Denmark, Norway, Flanders, Burgundy, Swiss.

Those in doubt:
Castille-Leon, Portugal, Aragon, Navarre, Bohemia.

Please advise on that matter.

[Ancient Aliens]

Very interesting, brief, direct and almost all the info is there. +rep.

Thank you! Though I am a poor modder I try to help those who can through my research!

So basically, in Western Europe that did use the lamellar armour:
Hungary, Poland, Sicily and Italian States.

Yes.

Those who didn't uses the lamellar but instead used Scale armour:
England, France, Scotland, HRE, Denmark, Norway, Flanders, Burgundy, Swiss.

Scale was rather unpopular, these countries would have been more likely to use mail (or leather, in the earlier periods). That being said, many ex-crusaders, vikings, and Byzantine servicemen (such as ex-Varangian Guards) would have used lamellar. Thusly, there was a limited presence of lamellar in England, France, the Holy Roman Empire, and Denmark. Enough to include lamellar into the armor tables? Most likely no. Mail and leather would be a better representative of these countries

Those in doubt:
Castille-Leon, Portugal, Aragon, Navarre, Bohemia.

Navarra and Bohemia would have seen very limited use of lamellar armor. Because of their contact with the Caliphate of Cordoba, however, Castille, Leon, Portugal, and Aragon would have fairly frequently used lamellar and scale. Enough to include the lamellar armor type into the armor tables? Possibly, on certain units. Well armored Early period Iberian cavalry would be fairly likely to use lamellar.

[Polycarpe]

Thanks for the addition Ancient Aliens , much appreciated.

I've done my alpha version of my unit guideline, which can be downloaded Here.

Two things regarding my guide mostly the armor section:

• Later, I'll probably add lamellar and other Eastern armors but, by comparing to the other armoru values, which values could be given for the lamellar if that type of armour is divided into three model (light Medium and Heavy Lamellar).
• If you have other material and armors to suggest, please feel free to share.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Chainmail Hauberks were still common in the Byzantines, and Lamellar was still used by them I believe.

[Ancient Aliens]

Thanks for the addition Ancient Aliens , much appreciated.

I've done my alpha version of my unit guideline, which can be downloaded Here.

My pleasure, and it looks good!

Later, I'll probably add lamellar and other Eastern armors but, by comparing to the other armoru values, which values could be given for the lamellar if that type of armour is divided into three model (light Medium and Heavy Lamellar).

As to it's stats:

• Chronologically, lamellar was a relatively early set of armor in the Middle Ages (it can actually be traced as far back as Ancient Sumeria). It should go between the scale and the coat of plate, but for fairness I would put it's upgrade level below the Heavy Mail Hauberk.
• It is fairly strong, about as strong as doubled chainmail and more deflective, so I would put it's base armor either below or at the level of the Heavy Mail Hauberk.
• It (along with scale mail) was developed particularly for hot regions, which is why it obtained such popularity in the Middle East. It should do well in the heat.
• It was comparatively light (about as heavy as mail), so it's Mass, Terrain Penalties, Agility Bonus, and Movement Animation Speed should all reflect this.

If you have other material and armors to suggest, please feel free to share.

It looks to me as though you have a fairly complete list there, although I do not see boiled leather, lamellared leather, or studded leather (these could be merged together under a "cuirie"). I'm not sure if you would want to include this, though, as they all sort of fall under the "leather" category.