Question on grenadiers

[Mark88fan]

Im assuming this mod has changed grenadiers from vanilla as in the main forum people said they are not good. Reason I ask is it looks like with this mod they have same amount of men as fusiliers of the line and better stats, so makes sense to use as bulk of your line instead of fusiliers?

[DaVinci]

Im assuming this mod has changed grenadiers from vanilla as in the main forum people said they are not good. Reason I ask is it looks like with this mod they have same amount of men as fusiliers of the line and better stats, so makes sense to use as bulk of your line instead of fusiliers?

I believe we have written something accordingly about grenadiers (see sticky changelogs), not sure now about your question. You could also wait some little time. JaM is preparing the new update-release, and then just try the mod (installation is easy, deinstallation as well).

[Mark88fan]

Sorry I was not clear, I am using this mod and seems to me that using grenadiers as the mainstay of your line infantry is the way to go vs using fusiliers. In vanilla, grenadiers seem not to be desired to use anywhere according to the forum.

I started using this mod right after I got the game, so Im not sure how grenadiers worked in vanilla.

[Mark88fan]

Ok, here are changes I saw....

- Grenadiers no longer have grenades, they didn't carry them during Napoleon Era, Grenadiers were melee specialists..
- Grenadiers and light Infantry now have same amount of men as Line Regimens.
- Grenadiers HAVE scary enemies ability

Could be more, but that is what caught my eye. So seems to me that using them as mainstay instead of fusiliers(playing as France) was not a mistake. I also noticed the AI uses a lot of them too.

[DaVinci]

Ok, here are changes I saw....

- Grenadiers no longer have grenades, they didn't carry them during Napoleon Era, Grenadiers were melee specialists..
- Grenadiers and light Infantry now have same amount of men as Line Regimens.
- Grenadiers HAVE scary enemies ability

Could be more, but that is what caught my eye. So seems to me that using them as mainstay instead of fusiliers(playing as France) was not a mistake. I also noticed the AI uses a lot of them too.

Grenadiers are the best of the Line Infantrymen, chosen deserved soldiers, and always experienced. They are special, of course. To use them as main army consistence, if i understand you right, would be at least extreme ahistorical

[Mark88fan]

Grenadiers are the best of the Line Infantrymen, chosen deserved soldiers, and always experienced. They are special, of course. To use them as main army consistence, if i understand you right, would be at least extreme ahistorical

Yeah, but like I said, the ai uses them a lot. Maybe they should be more expensive upkeep for them to make fusiliers more viable, just a thought.

[DaVinci]

Yeah, but like I said, the ai uses them a lot. Maybe they should be more expensive upkeep for them to make fusiliers more viable, just a thought.

They have unit caps though, at some point the pool is empty.

[mattebubben]

well as it is no there is no unit cap and the AI is spamming them 80% of all line infantry of the AI armies is either Elites or Grenadiers

[JaM]

I will try to do something about it in next release.

[Khassaki]

well as it is no there is no unit cap and the AI is spamming them 80% of all line infantry of the AI armies is either Elites or Grenadiers

Yep, that is what I found as well.

[mattebubben]

what i did was added a Limit myself made a limit of 15 for the Regular Grenadiers and that works pretty well as now the AI is Forced to use Regular line aswell

[JaM]

Yes, there should be an unit limit for Grenadiers,no t sure why it is missing. Logic behind is that every line regiment has a grenadiers company. Because all units represents regiments, grenadiers represents independent companies withdrawed from line regiments - so let say if France has 100 infantry regiments, they could have 100 companies, which means 12-13 Grenadier regiments MAX.

[Condottiere SOG]

Ok, here are changes I saw....

- Grenadiers no longer have grenades, they didn't carry them during Napoleon Era, Grenadiers were melee specialists..
- Grenadiers and light Infantry now have same amount of men as Line Regimens.
- Grenadiers HAVE scary enemies ability

Could be more, but that is what caught my eye. So seems to me that using them as mainstay instead of fusiliers(playing as France) was not a mistake. I also noticed the AI uses a lot of them too.

A myth brought on by historians from 1880 to 1965...grenadiers and dragoons used grenades in urban fighting and in attacks on fortifications. In my revision of this mod, grenadiers and some dragoons have this option...usually the ai will use them in assualting strong positions but not in 'line of battle' confrontations. Several historians have since found records of grenade use in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

[Mjarr]

Im assuming this mod has changed grenadiers from vanilla as in the main forum people said they are not good. Reason I ask is it looks like with this mod they have same amount of men as fusiliers of the line and better stats, so makes sense to use as bulk of your line instead of fusiliers?

I personally use them either to support an attack behind line infantry or as reserves. The scare effect has enough range that if you group few units in column so the grenadiers are right behind the line infantry, it's makes line infantry's life easier when engaged in melee, and should you break part of the line you have fresh unit to exploit the secondary line or engage another unit depending whatever the AI (or co-player, if pvp for some ***** and giggles) is really up to.

[JaM]

In new version that is currently in the works (will contain same combat mechanics as ER4) Grenadiers will be very useful as assault infantry. Prolonged musketry fire will have negative effects on unit morale, cohesion and overall fire effectivity, which will make these units susceptible to attack. While volley fire will be relatively fast - standard unit will be able to fire 6-9 salvos against enemy marching into melee contact, overall accuracy of this fire will decrease significantly with each salvo. Practically, first salvo will be fired with maximum accuracy, next few salvos will get about 50% drop in accuracy, until cohesion drops even more, and accuracy gets reduced by 80% So, once you see enemy unit cohesion is low, you can just take your grenadier battalion and march towards enemy without suffering too many casualties.. once you are close enough, you can deliver single salvo and follow it with bayonet charge - in most of such cases, defending unit will rout even before direct contact, some will break from that initial volley, and only in very rare occasions your grenadiers will actually have to engage enemy in melee...

[tommytoxen]

Ok, here are changes I saw....

- Grenadiers no longer have grenades, they didn't carry them during Napoleon Era, Grenadiers were melee specialists..
- Grenadiers and light Infantry now have same amount of men as Line Regimens.
- Grenadiers HAVE scary enemies ability

Could be more, but that is what caught my eye. So seems to me that using them as mainstay instead of fusiliers(playing as France) was not a mistake. I also noticed the AI uses a lot of them too.

but grenadiers did use grenades, mostly in [defense of] sieges. that's why they're called grenadiers. clue's in their name.

can't stand mods that claim to be "realistic" then remove grenades from grenadiers.

[JaM]

grenades were no longer carried during Napoleonic times.. they were discarded as unnecessary (and quite dangerous to own men). Grenadiers were seen as specialist close combat SHOCK troops, and that is exactly how they work in NER. removing grenades from them was absolutely necessary, because game made them to be a ranged weapon, therefore grenadiers were using them instead of muskets... Overall, out of all battles fought, i dont recall a single one, where Grenadiers would use grenades in battle... while actual grenades would be used in sieges by ANY troops, not just by Grenadiers...

[Steveholmes]

I think the last, military Napoleon era troops to use grenades were probably the sapper units. The toughest nuts in any army.

Personally I think for game purpose that the only units that should carry grenades should be all sapper units to represent a part of the siege weapons still in use back then. But that's my personal opinion.

Which I should contact the makers of NTW3 to allow the sapper units to throw grenades aswel. Besides building siege trenches and placing mines and anti-cavalary eathworks "Chevaux de Frize".

[Mjarr]

but grenadiers did use grenades, mostly in [defense of] sieges. that's why they're called grenadiers. clue's in their name.

can't stand mods that claim to be "realistic" then remove grenades from grenadiers.

The inevitable issue is you cannot really simulate variety of gear or situational exceptions that well in Total War games. Unit abilites are permanently enabled and if we take the realism arugment step further, endless supply of grenades hailed from depths of magical pouches is hardly realistic either. (Then again this does apply to artillery in E\NTW.) Another problem is gameplay consideration. How far one could reasonably throw old fashioned, 18th to 19th century style grenade? Now let's account that to distance scaling of NER and due lack of other factors which are present with use of grenades and the end result would be hilarious cluster because of endless grenades in those rare situations you're close enough to work with them only to realise it's quite a lot more effective to not use them in the first place in most cases as well.

Now of course we could raise interesting point about gameplay and realism (especially when it comes to mods and how much they can tinker) but here is perhaps my favourite example which comes from the NTW3 mod, which I honestly otherwise think is pretty damm good, borderlines unplayable in single player without serious alterations for few reasons, one being that units cannot really run through other units. Perfectly realistic and adds interesting depth to how to manage your lines. Now tell that to the AI that was never designed with that in mind and has absolutely no idea how to manage that. Frequently one can run into outright ridiculous situation in which full proper AI stack is beaten back by 5x units because 3\4 of the stack is rendered ineffective because units are more or less stuck in loops of "Hey I wanna go here but I can't go here."

[Steph]

Grenadiers did throw grenades, hence the name. In the 17th century.... In the 18th the use of grenades drop drastically to the point of being irrelevant.

Same for some cuirassiers: they actually did not wear a cuirass during the Napoleonic wars.