Mod to stop AI from spawning units instantly when out of your line of sight

[Empyrean]

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...ies-now-sticky

Im right, you're all wrong.

The AI doesnt cheat. Barack was born in America. Astronauts landed on the moon. There was no JFK conspiracy. 9/11 wasnt an inside job. Nobody is peeing in your cheerios.

Sucker.

I am peeing in your cheerios.

[Roslolian]

Ariovistus,

Pretty obvious what happened. This was an army out of your line of sight but that saw yours (seeing as hiding armies can be detected), and they moved to attack yours but ran out of movement before getting there, likely due to forest.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

Ariovistus,

Pretty obvious what happened. This was an army out of your line of sight but that saw yours (seeing as hiding armies can be detected), and they moved to attack yours but ran out of movement before getting there, likely due to forest.

My point is that in the first place, zone of control does not allow enemy armies to get that close (by on top of each other I mean on top of each other), and secondly I should have ambushed him if he had moved there, since I was concealed in the forest.

[0utlaw]

My point is that in the first place, zone of control does not allow enemy armies to get that close (by on top of each other I mean on top of each other), and secondly I should have ambushed him if he had moved there, since I was concealed in the forest.

Zone of control yes and good point. However, regarding ambush, all armies have a chance to spot hidden units and break their ambush. Could be that despite the crouched position you weren't actually hidden from him.

[0utlaw]

If you go back to the previous post maybe 3x pages back where the person outlined each bonus that the AI gets it's pretty significant. It's quite possible for the AI to build 2 full stacks loaded with experience while holding only a single territory.

People are thinking there is no way "they" the player can build that many or that fast and just assume the AI is spawning. however, the AI is only receiving bonus based on difficulty and is even nerf'd on easy.

Additionally with the units magically popping out of thin air... it's called Ambush and the AI is doing exactly what CA said it would. By following one of the tenets from Sun Tzu regarding deception and hiding your strength appearing weak.

[Tough Puppy]

Why is this mod incompatible with mp? I cannot do drop in battles see.

[Oddball_E8]

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...ies-now-sticky

Im right, you're all wrong.

The AI doesnt cheat. Barack was born in America. Astronauts landed on the moon. There was no JFK conspiracy. 9/11 wasnt an inside job. Nobody is peeing in your cheerios.

Oh i dont know... i seem to recall a pretty huge primary/secondary weapon bug in Rome Total War that was vehemently denied by CA until suddenly they released a fix for it in a patch...
Hell, they even blamed it on the modders... cheeky buggers...

[chanw4]

I've read the announcement from CA that the AI can't spawn armies. And I didn't think it happened, except I'm rather suspicious about this one time...

I was the Hattori in a multiplayer campaign, only hard difficulty, and was attacked by the Tsutsui, that clan to the west. I destroyed their army and counterinvaded toward their capital. My army was hidden in the forest. So I end the turn and next thing I know there is an enemy army, about the same size as mine, standing RIGHT NEXT TO my army. I didn't see it walk their although I admittedly wasn't paying much attention. but seriously they were a couple pixels away and our flags were overlapping.

What's up with that? Zone of control shouldn't even let them that close, and I should have ambushed them if they did walk there. What gives?

Actually, the AI already hiding there when you enter, the AI simply decide not to attack your army because they don't think they can win. Happen to me lots of time when I move a large army through bushes, nothing happen and I thought, good, no hidden army, but when I move my 1 general stack of 'reinforcement' (to get experience). The AI decide to ambush and slaughter my general. You can denied attack the enemy when you ambush, so does the AI.

This could also happen due to a desync in MP campaign I think. Sometimes the enemy position on my partner screen is different than mine and if you move accross the bugged position, it will cause somekind of dead loop where you were asked to engage but your partner don't recognise the engagement or simply crashed.

[Frei]

I'm glad this is still debated, official answer or no.

Also, comparing nutjob conspiracy theories to a game company telling white lies to make their game look better is pretty ridiculous and hyperbolic, the refuge of a bad argument.

[DaVinci]

The AI recruits like hell, that is a sure thing, and applies diverse tactics to trick you out, ie. hiding and going around if it helps them to gain a goal etc.. Also AI wants to keep the upper hand in regard of unit numbers and quality to their neighbors. I call that actually advanced AI coding compared to any former TW titles. Well done CA.

But, the AI has according to my observations indeed "recruitment" abilities, which the player has not, this is a fact for me. How? I'm not sure. It might be super-rewards for missions and whatnot.

I browse around the coast a lot with a ship to look how the AI behaves and which factions are there etc.. Also going around with agents to observe AI. I seldomly or rather never experience some of those extreme observations which are reported here, ie. suddenly an army next to me in a forest in the army zone.

But here is my example:

In the S2R mod we have done unit caps, means certain units have certain max recruitment options.

In my S2R+ all Samurai have at least + 1 exp from the start.

Now a fact: What do i see? An army with lots of Samurai units without exp points, and also the max number for one type is by far extended.

[Note: The AI else applies the codes which we mod, exception is apparantly unit caps, perhaps due to such phenomens from above, this is where i'm not sure].

The latter point might be due to rewards, and as well rewards give no exp points for the spawned unit. This fits exactly to my example.

So i pretty much assume those "out of thin air" units are special mass rewards, at least to some extension, other might be rebel/enemy army bribes. Edit: And rebellion faction armies.

Interesting is only, how and when gets the AI those rewards.

And why doesn't CA (if it is so) give us a hint about it, it would make things easier to understand. Or have i missed simply such a hint in their official reply?

[The Hedge Knight]

Having played alot of campaign while ai testing with fow compeltelly off i can say i have never ever seen the ai spawn troops, they are all recruited... I can also say if they do there is nothing in the games files that suggests they do (except the ashikaga).

[DaVinci]

Having played alot of campaign while ai testing with fow compeltelly off i can say i have never ever seen the ai spawn troops, they are all recruited... I can also say if they do there is nothing in the games files that suggests they do (except the ashikaga).

Please read my example. How is this possible? Samurai units start with at least 1 exp point, if recruited, in my mod. They didn't there, i swear. Next time i'm doing a screenie.

Also, the AI goes apparently around unit caps, that's for sure. The proof is very easy in a mod which has unit caps.

So my assumption of rewards and bribing, if the AI works along the codes given in files like units, building_allows, and as said it applies generally the codes of these files.

Besides this, AI rebellion factions might start with a "balanced" army which can easily compete with the current situation around. This would explain the non-unit-cap. But it doesn't explain it for factions which are there from the start especially for unit caps, which work exactly for the human player.

Edit: My example might be indeed a rebellion army, as the faction type i observed there, suggests this. While it doesn't explain the thing of non-applying unit caps for prominent factions who begin from the start of the campaign.

Edit: Btw., such "phenomens" are well known already from former titles, like RTW to begin with (while not full armies or half stacks, but other extremes like super exp units which are normally not possible via the existing and accessable code). Hardcodes, never we were able to change some certain things in this regard via modding.

[El-Vi-Riachi]

[Note: The AI else applies the codes which we mod, exception is apparantly unit caps, perhaps due to such phenomens from above, this is where i'm not sure].

Edit: Btw., such "phenomens" are well known already from former titles

Do dooo do do do!



I must say that if it happens it is not as bad as some make out as any stacks that "appear" usually do so in lightly wooded areas where armies can hide. If it does get any recruitment benifits it must be minimum.

[PumpkinBread]

Do dooo do do do!



I must say that if it happens it is not as bad as some make out as any stacks that "appear" usually do so in lightly wooded areas where armies can hide. If it does get any recruitment benifits it must be minimum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkK7SMopjXk

(it's Muppet show- Sandra Bullock singing phenomena)

[chanw4]

Do dooo do do do!



I must say that if it happens it is not as bad as some make out as any stacks that "appear" usually do so in lightly wooded areas where armies can hide. If it does get any recruitment benifits it must be minimum.

The number of troop is not a problem since it can be explained. The problem I think is the AI tends to ignore limit and have a passive way of gaining 'rank' without ever going to the battlefield...

If you look carefully on the enemy cities with lots of forest, you can see some of them actually gain a few units stripe (during their turn) on the flag and then a disappear after a flick which indicates they built the unit and then hide in the forest with their main army.


http://games.on.net/article/12286/In...l_War_Shogun_2

Please read my example. How is this possible? Samurai units start with at least 1 exp point, if recruited, in my mod. They didn't there, i swear. Next time i'm doing a screenie.

Confirmed from an interview. Enemy AI get experience bonus 'cheat'.

[El-Vi-Riachi]

If you look carefully on the enemy cities with lots of forest, you can see some of them actually gain a few units stripe (during their turn) on the flag and then a disappear after a flick which indicates they built the unit and then hide in the forest with their main army.

Minus an experience bonus and the ability to break any unit limits, I would say that is quite clever hiding the main army in the forest next to a settlement. Can mislead you into attacking thinking you could get an easy prize.

[Uszaty]

Ashikaga Shogunate does spawn additional stack when it declares war on the player, so we can safely assume that such thing is possible. Now we can only believe in the CA statement, that other clans do not do it. I think they don't, at least on Normal difficulty where I spend most of my time. Hiding armies in forests is a common AI tactics, though one could not realize that with "show enemy moves" turned off.

Has anyone ever seen AI Metsuke approaching an army and trying to bribe\bribing it? I've never encountered such a thing.

[chanw4]

Ashikaga Shogunate does spawn additional stack when it declares war on the player, so we can safely assume that such thing is possible. Now we can only believe in the CA statement, that other clans do not do it. I think they don't, at least on Normal difficulty where I spend most of my time. Hiding armies in forests is a common AI tactics, though one could not realize that with "show enemy moves" turned off.

Has anyone ever seen AI Metsuke approaching an army and trying to bribe\bribing it? I've never encountered such a thing.

Not sure about bribing, but they do apprehand my agents.

[DaVinci]

Ashikaga Shogunate does spawn additional stack when it declares war on the player, so we can safely assume that such thing is possible. Now we can only believe in the CA statement, that other clans do not do it. I think they don't, at least on Normal difficulty where I spend most of my time. Hiding armies in forests is a common AI tactics, though one could not realize that with "show enemy moves" turned off.

Has anyone ever seen AI Metsuke approaching an army and trying to bribe\bribing it? I've never encountered such a thing.

The Ashikaga extra spawn bonus is a clear thing and is even to find in the CAI codes, and complete okay with me, but there is no such code for other (AI) factions.
Also the exp AI extra gains are okay with me.

Of course bribing is a content of the game, iirc. you can do it with your metsuke, so can the AI. The chances are quite low though, CA adressed this well. That might be different for a rebellion army especially if they spawn without a dedicated general character and AI bribes AI, possibly the chance ratio is different.

Anyways, in principle everything can be explained in the regard of occuring armies via soft codes and just hardcodes which are not accessable/moddable.
As for CA's official statement i believe them, but iirc. their info wasn't really complete in every respect, more details would be appreciated ... have still to review their post though.

My concern stays as for the AI apparently (still not 100 % sure) does not consider modified unit caps via the units file (db/tsv), that's annoying, and new that AI has such capability to ignore codes which are valid for the player though. If it is so, i consider this as a bug, as balance modding is significantly reduced.

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

The AI recruits like hell, that is a sure thing, and applies diverse tactics to trick you out, ie. hiding and going around if it helps them to gain a goal etc.. Also AI wants to keep the upper hand in regard of unit numbers and quality to their neighbors. I call that actually advanced AI coding compared to any former TW titles. Well done CA.

But, the AI has according to my observations indeed "recruitment" abilities, which the player has not, this is a fact for me. How? I'm not sure. It might be super-rewards for missions and whatnot.

I browse around the coast a lot with a ship to look how the AI behaves and which factions are there etc.. Also going around with agents to observe AI. I seldomly or rather never experience some of those extreme observations which are reported here, ie. suddenly an army next to me in a forest in the army zone.

But here is my example:

In the S2R mod we have done unit caps, means certain units have certain max recruitment options.

In my S2R+ all Samurai have at least + 1 exp from the start.

Now a fact: What do i see? An army with lots of Samurai units without exp points, and also the max number for one type is by far extended.

[Note: The AI else applies the codes which we mod, exception is apparantly unit caps, perhaps due to such phenomens from above, this is where i'm not sure].

The latter point might be due to rewards, and as well rewards give no exp points for the spawned unit. This fits exactly to my example.

So i pretty much assume those "out of thin air" units are special mass rewards, at least to some extension, other might be rebel/enemy army bribes. Edit: And rebellion faction armies.

Interesting is only, how and when gets the AI those rewards.

And why doesn't CA (if it is so) give us a hint about it, it would make things easier to understand. Or have i missed simply such a hint in their official reply?

It could be that the CAI can replace units with others. So they build Ashigaru and these get "magically" replaced by samurai. Would explain why the AI has no unit caps. Because I really wonder what CDIR_DESIRE_UNIT_BALANCER_ARMY and CDIR_DESIRE_FORCE_MINIMUM_UNIT_BALANCE_REQUIREMENTS_ARMY mean in the code. Of course the balancing desires could also mean forcing certain unit choices while recruiting. I guess we have to simply disable all that stuff and see what happens.