Land Battle AI & Tactics

[Imaginary Tiger]

Assuming it is legitimate to start a new threat to include posts about a specific subtopic, land battle ai (Land BAI) seems like an appropriate one.

[JaM]

yup, feel free to comment on your experiences with BAI within NER, any suggestion or ideas, also if you have any questions on how things work in NER, feel free to ask

[St. Cyr]

I know it's been discussed before, but could someone please refresh me, in the current mod build, what are the best uses of voltigeurs and chassuers? and what are the key differences and strategy differences between the two?

[JaM]

Voltigeurs are always in open formation - they are best used in skirmish - place them in broken terrain,woods etc and snipe the hell from the enemy - they are also very good at attacking the artillery positions - canister will not kill them that easily because of their scattered formation and their tendency using all possible cover.

Chaseurs are more like Line infantry, they are able to skirmish in open order, but they can also stand in line, they are better shooters so they will outshoot any Line infantry unit with the same experience level, but they are not as good in melee, where they will be only slightly inferior to line infantry in bayonet use, they are no match for Grenadiers so be carefull.

Most of the time I use chaseurs as a first unit in Brigade attack column (3-4 line units placed behind each other with medium distance between lines so artillery will not damage two or more units with one cannonball), grenadiers are second and line regiments third and fourth - voltigeurs are often on flanks of this formation providing fire cover. I just march this formation into range, and start firing with chaseurs at max range, deploy voltigeurs on the flanks, wait till the enemy line fired with all men so they end up reloading and then deffer fire at will to chaseurs (so they will not shoot into own men) and move Grenadiers and Line units forward. When Grenadiers are at charge distance i halt them, fire one salvo and charge. after they are in melee, i send second Line in, at that time defenders are routed or killed. third line then just move forward to secure the breakthrough, where other units just reform and attack any opposition on left or right ...


hope it helps

[DaVinci]

Slightly changed the thread title

Short info: We are not able to re-make the BAI (so i removed the term "BAI" from the thread-title). Our modding is changing in-/directly the unit behaviour on the battlefield, not more not less. This is not BAI modding though.

Else, i suggest to use this thread for this purpose above mentioned by JaM, and just the unit behaviour, and extend it to discussions about tactics.

[Imaginary Tiger]

Awesome discussion of tactics, thanks!

First question: What is a good distance for a charge? I am assuming it is where the volley has maximum effect, or thereabouts, so then the question becomes, what range is that (e.g., 42.5 for a unit with 85 range)? Apologies, as I'm sure this has been addressed before.

Separate issue: When I play as France, the enemy generally lines up, shoots at me, and I destroy them with canister (eventually). Also, my skirmishers hang around for quite some time; but even if I do not have skirmishers, the enemy typically does not advance into melee. Fighting as Austria, though, my skirmishers break and run (presumably the difference is because French morale is much higher), but then the French come forward and fight my artillery hand to hand even thought the artillery are flanked by line. Is there some known factor which determines whether units will charge / melee? Does the AI 'know' that its units have higher melee skills than the opponent? Do the French in fact melee more often than other nations?

Third question: I am always "happy" to see an enemy cavalry unit sneak up behind me unnoticed, charge, and rout my units. Nice work, AI! It seems like this happens inconsistently, however, and I'm wondering if there is some known reason why or when the opponent will attack from the rear (I have had an infantry unit do the same thing, i.e., sneak up from behind).

Fourth question: With a cavalry charge, is it best to hit a line in a two rank formation, or in a diamond formation? What I would prefer is for my calvary to simply run into the line, chop up some infantry, and then continue forwards; change direction, and do the same thing again. Does simply directing them to run to a point beyond the line do this?

[JaM]

1. its hard to recognise the proper distance for charge - it depends on enemy status of reloading - with low reload rates enemy fire comes in (desinchronized) salvos - you just need to find proper moment to move forward so you will not receive a close range salvo prior to charging.. Infantry will commit charge when approximately 20m away from charged unit - so if you stop at that distance your march, fire a salvo, you will be able to charge without any holdouts - in my latest game i was able to perform ideal charge with grenadiers stopping at 20m away from enemy line, i fired one salvo and charged - enemy broke instantly and run away... (but of course, this march to that 20m distance was supported by chaseurs and voltigeurs as I described before)

2. Yes, AI knows very well what unit stats are - if he sees as advantage in melee stats, it will press for melee, if not he will rather stand and shoot. In NER we have faction specific stats, so that is why you see some faction specific behavior - but you will also witness unit specific behavior too - Grenadiers will be more likely to press the charge than Light infantry etc...

3. there are attack preference values, which force AI to search for flank and rear attacks.

4. historically - the most effective charges were delivered in line - cavalry was able to bring highest number of men with blades into contact. Wedge or diamond formation were not used at all and we will most likely remove them from game, as nobody was using them anyway... all cavalry units across the Europe used 2 rank attack formation, or column formation on the march. only Prussian used 3-rank formations, but they rapidly found out their cavalry gets in dissadvantage that way...

[St. Cyr]

So Jam, you really just use your grenadiers as melee fighters? One volley and charge?

I could be wrong, but as the French, it seems like Grenadiers are also superior to fusiliers in gun battle as well?

Also in your prior description of volts vs. chasseurs... do you really attack in column formation all the time? Shooting and melee?

[JaM]

nope, i don't use deep formations - instead i use 3 or more units behind each other in brigade column - something like this( but its called battalion column here):


Grenadiers are good with muskets,but even better in charge - if you get them close, fire one salvo and charge, you will get best of both worlds effect...

voltigeurs should be in 2 rank formation, Chaseurs in default 3-ranks, as I mentioned before, chaseurs are my front line troops, they hail the enemy with fire, preparing the ground for fresh units behind.

[squatlover]

I'm liking the AI, although I wonder whether there's an easy way to change the behaviour of light troops, as they always try to flank (making them really vulnerable to cavalry). Ideally putting in front of the main line to skirmish would be ideal: is there any way to make them do this?

[JaM]

squatlover: only way would be to find out how to edit groupformations.bin file but so far nobody was able to do it...

[Imaginary Tiger]

Thanks for prior answers! Unfortunately I cannot see the picture, but I assume you have traditional 3 rank lines, ordered one behind another, so line 1, gap, line 2, gap, line 3, gap, line 4?

When your grenadiers charge, do you aim for the center of the enemy unit (this may be all you can do) or try to hit the 'gap' between two units? I am assuming your grenadier line is the same width as the opposing unit's line, but this may be incorrect.

When you say you have your voltigeurs on flanks providing fire cover (and then deploying voltigeurs on flanks), how are they arranged? In line, marching along side your 'column', or facing outwards (and then switching)? Or vice versa?

With your 'column' attack (misnamed, I know), what role do you have artillery play? E.g., have horse artillery move up alongside your column, take a few shots at the line, and then charge with the infantry (or stop further back and hammer adjacent units (to avoid hitting your advancing men)?

Does the AI ever try to "wrap" your advancing column, i.e., move forward units on the sides to envelop it? Is the idea that you have a second force waiting to break through any gap created if they try that?

I wish I could see the pictures, because it seems like cannonballs bounce for a while, and so the gaps between your lines would have to be relatively large.

Facing an opponent attacking your line in the same way, what would your defense be? Withhold fire until the attacking force was at optimal range?

[JaM]

will try to post few pictures

[oho]

Can you somehow change the initial and marching formation of all AI infantry (or at least french infantry) to let's say 9 ranks deep to simulate something like a column? I think that's more realistic than the line formation I almost always get (except some militia units). The marching formation also of the crack troops almost never was a line of 3.
If not - which file do I have to change ( what folder) to achieve that?
Thanks!

[JaM]

oho: not possible right now - for that to happen you have to edit groupformations.bin and nobody was able to crack that file yet...

[JaM]

Imaginary Tiger: btw, i forgot to mention it is a very good idea to place Guard unit in second line - their "inspire friendly" ability will make your attacking first line last longer, plus even if enemy routs them, counter-charge of Guard Unit is something that is very hard to resist... probably the best unit here is Old Guard - as they have both scary enemy and inspire friendly abilities - so their impact is the largest of all units... if you deploy such assault properly, enemy has no chance and you will break through his line.

that is the biggest disadvantage of current Battle AI - it always deploys into single line - no reserves whatsoever... so once you break their line they are done...

[Ryo]

Imaginary Tiger: btw, i forgot to mention it is a very good idea to place Guard unit in second line - their "inspire friendly" ability will make your attacking first line last longer, plus even if enemy routs them, counter-charge of Guard Unit is something that is very hard to resist... probably the best unit here is Old Guard - as they have both scary enemy and inspire friendly abilities - so their impact is the largest of all units... if you deploy such assault properly, enemy has no chance and you will break through his line.

that is the biggest disadvantage of current Battle AI - it always deploys into single line - no reserves whatsoever... so once you break their line they are done...

Jam,but Sinuhet formations mod:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=253398

doesn't work with Napoleon?

[JaM]

yup, Sinuhet is the only men i know who was able to mod that file.. frankly his mod will not work in NTW and he is not around right now...

[oho]

In the mod Napoleon Order of War there is this Feauture:
"Battle AI Improvments (Enemy now advance in thick lines or columns, helps keep co-ordanation)"
Perhaps you can ask them?

[JaM]

hmm, will ask them how they did it...


edit:


I checked what thy have different and i found that they just gave some unit really deep formations - grenadiers starts in 12 rank formation, same for most of Guards...

problem with this is deep formations were not used as fighting formations - they were only used during marches, not in combat - even so oftenly mentioned column was not just unit with lot of ranks - it was formed from companies formed in 3-rank formations standing behind each other - distance between companies was much higher than distance between ranks in company... same formation you would get if you just put 4 line unit behind each other with distances 2x larger than depth of 3-rank formation.