Best of Napoleon's marshals

[RO Citizen]

Lannes&Davout.

Ney, a stupid brave one. Murat&Bernadotte got dirty in politics, Massena, Soult, etc medium-mediocre

[Invictus XII]

Hi Marshal Beale

Do you know who won of the battle of Waterloo?

You need to get a grip on your prejudices and deal with the facts. Otherwise you will continue to make a ridiculous spectacle of yourself here.

Regards
Victor

Sapere aude
Horace

Of course I know who won the battle of Waterloo, Blucher. Yes a coalition victory, but the battle was won by Blucher.
If it wasn't for Blucher and his Prussians, Wellington would have been easily defeated. His troops would have broken after Napoleon took La Haye Saint.

[Jihada]

I'd rather not continue this point on this French marshalls thread but...
The Allied army position was still stable after the loss of la Haye Sainte,the state of the ground precluded any flanking move or the French were incapable of such manoeuvre. The French cavalry and many of the French troops had already failed. Napoleon had Lobau's small corps and the Guard units in reserve. Some would have to be kept in reserve until it was clear that Grouchy was arriving.
The defence of the Allied army against the Guard attack which did happen (not just by British but also supposedly untried Netherlands units ) shows the defenders were still capable of resistance along the reverse slope,especially as the French seemed incapable of coordinating mixed arms attacks and even the Prussian Landwehr showed it could resist the Young Guard (not really of Guard status at this battle).Although artillery was causing casualties it wouldn't be decisive unless the French could use it in numbers on the ridge itself.
If the Allies resisted until nightfall, Wellington could decide whether to retreat at night or on the 19th depending on Grouchy and Blucher's situation,the weather,defensive positions further back and the intentions of Napoleon's army.
Of course if Grouchy had appeared on the flank the Allies would have to retreat but he was incapable of forcing the rearguard the Prussians had left at Wavre until it was too late.

[Rotaugen2009]

Of course I know who won the battle of Waterloo, Blucher. Yes a coalition victory, but the battle was won by Blucher.
If it wasn't for Blucher and his Prussians, Wellington would have been easily defeated. His troops would have broken after Napoleon took La Haye Saint.

Bah, we all know Sharpe would have somehow won the day. His presence was worth two corps on the battlefield. Napoleon must have had a lot of great marshals to hold Sharpe off for so long.... what, he's fictional? Nevermind.

Would you rather have a marshal who was talented but conservative, or hot headed like Ney? Unless I were desperate, I would rather have the steady talented one.

[Marechal Ney]

Ney.

When his rearguard crossed the Neman River at Kovno, he noticed a group of Russian partisans gathering at the Russian side of the bridge. Ney waited for his men to cross, then turned, lowered his musket (all officers were carying regular infantry weapons at this point), and fired a warning shot. He then left, being the last Frenchman to exit Russia (or at least with an established force).

Although he did mess up Waterloo, most of Napoleon's Marshals couldn't handle the task Ney was given. Ney had pretty good command over a corps, but could not command larger sizes and struggled with using different forces together.

Still, Ney was the greatest of Napoleon's marshals (and I am named after him on TWC, so of course I vote for him).

[Legless Lannes]

Massena needs way more love, he was a brilliant and distinguished general and was pre-eminent among the Marshalate in 1804. War weariness finally caught up with him during the Spanish campaign vs Wellington, but this happens to all generals who have a full and long career, he was General of Division in 1793. He was also one of the few Marshals who were trusted with a wholly independent command. I don't like to rate 1,2,3 but Massena is among the best group of Revolutionary/Napoleonic generals.

It's easier to get a full picture of Massena then say Lannes who died when he was approaching his peak in 1809. The same year which saw the last decisive victory for the Grande Armee & Napoleon. So we'll never know how Lannes would have fared in the dark times after 1812, though I doubt Lannes would have betrayed Napoleon like Marmont or have taken part in asking for Napoleons abdication which was led by Ney in 1814. Napoleon said if things went the way they did and Lannes was alive he couldn't see how he could have survived the campaign of 1814 such was his bravery, but then he also said Lannes was becoming a great man in his own right so perhaps the campaign of France wouldn't have come about had he lived, ah the 'what ifs' one could talk about them all day hehe.

[Medina]

We can all have our favorites. But we will never know for certain, they never fought against eachother...

My favorite is Ney though.

[Jackhammer]

Ditto. Massena was also a good field commander, and Soult was a good grand strategist, but Lannes and Davout were the best all around, Davout in my opinion was the only marshal who could also have been Emperor, though of course with not as much skill as Napoleon.

I concur. If The Empreror had followed Davout's advice for a turning movement & flank attack at Borodino, Napoleon might well have destroyed Katusov & the Grande Armee would not have been shattered. If he would have had Davout as his right arm in the Waterloo campaign instead of Ney, we Brits might now have french as our mother tongue ( not likely though - God save the Royal Navy ! ).

Wellington was never in a face-off with Davout - now that would have been an interesting encounter.

[calicheSCOT]

Davout, I believe he was the only marshall who Napoleon recognised as a possible threat because of his talent. There is little doubt Napoleon downplayed the importance of Davouts victory at Auerstadt following Napoleons lack of success at Jena precisely because it was such a resounding success.

[Pro-opera Jungian]

Davout, I believe he was the only marshall who Napoleon recognised as a possible threat because of his talent. There is little doubt Napoleon downplayed the importance of Davouts victory at Auerstadt following Napoleons lack of success at Jena precisely because it was such a resounding success.

Granted, Auerstadt was more impressive, but Jena was nevertheless a great victory. It shattered the Prussian war effort.

[43rdFoot]

I voted Davout simply because of his skill of command at Auerstedt. Second in my mind was Lannes, but Davout just sticks out more to me as a phenomenal military leader.

[Septimus Severus]

Michele Ney, the Bravest of the Brave as Napoleon called him. The Duke of Moscowa i believe. But he went mad at the end for some reason.

[Rotaugen2009]

Davout, I believe he was the only marshall who Napoleon recognised as a possible threat because of his talent. There is little doubt Napoleon downplayed the importance of Davouts victory at Auerstadt following Napoleons lack of success at Jena precisely because it was such a resounding success.

Davout was a great general, and his part in a movie could be played by Jason Alexander (George Costanza on Seinfeld). Auerstadt was simply an amazing victory to pull off. And the Prussians were not run by the NTW AI.

[exNowy]

The best Napoleon's Marshal was Davout because he was so lucky and did not lost any battle.
He can win even was outnumbered at Auerstedt. He also took part in many famous battles like Austerlitz, Eylau, Wagram, Borodino where he showed well his skills. Davout can made independent actions and under Napoleons orders he can made good defensive and offensive actions. Even in relatively smaller battles he commanded quite well and had fine results as like at Teugen, Thann, where he fought like common soldier and at Eckmuhl where he stopped Austrians in 1809. Davout try advised Napolen to outflank Russians at Borodino, but Emperor ordered hit in the center. Davout as loyal Iron Marshall did many attacks there and captured Russians fortifications but lost so many his brave Frenchmen. It was big mistake and Davout's defect that he sacrificed too many his good soldiers.
Nevertheless Davout quite well fougth later during Hamburg Campaign. And at last he was not a traitor like many other Napoleon's Marshals were.

I can see that Marshal Ney is also popular here, but I think that surely he was not the best.

Ney was hot brainded and had average gneral commander skills. He was personaly brave man, but had poor strategic knowlege. He was good as Corps comander under Napoleon's orders and supervision. If he tried independent actions he was in troubles and failed sometimes e.g. he lost battle to Bernadotte at Dennewitz.
Ney engaged in battles so easy and attacks even situation was not clear and friendlly troops did not or can not came on time. He showed this during Russian campaign, when his Corps attacks at Valutina Gora and when attacks on fortified positions at Smolensk and Borodino, where he lost so many soldiers. It did not help to win Russian Campaign and worse that later he has not enough men, when Napoleon must reteated in very bad circumstances during Russian winter. This way that was disastrous campaign and even brave reargarde actions can not changed that fatal situation.

At Waterloo Ney lost momentum to right attack and can not co-ordinated cavalry attacks with needed infantry and artillery support.

However he was brave man, but brave does not mean the best and it do not makes that Marshall can be the best.

[Jihada]

i have read that Ney was a good leader in small reaguard actions but his incompetence at Waterloo,attempting a cavalry attack against steady squares without effectively coordinating artillery and infantry support,puts him way down the list of commanders of any nation. Apparently he ordered the cavalry to attack unsupported as he mistook a rearrangement of the Allied disposition as a retreat,therefore one of the main reasons for the defeat.
Remembered mosly for his cool attitude at his execution.

[MrT]

Actually their was artillery support during the cavalry charges. The french horse batteries were pushed well forward and these fired effectively when cavalry the regrouped in the valley east of Hougemont. The squares actually prefered the cavalry attacking since then it didn´t have to withstand the artillery. Also he did eventually bring up Bachelu´s infantry division and Foy´s infantry brigade, about some 6500 men, so there was some infantry support. Problem was it was too late, around 5.30p.m. Still a huge mistake by Ney by any means by continually reinforcing failure.

[Pro-opera Jungian]

Actually their was artillery support during the cavalry charges. The french horse batteries were pushed well forward and these fired effectively when cavalry the regrouped in the valley east of Hougemont. The squares actually prefered the cavalry attacking since then it didn´t have to withstand the artillery. Also he did eventually bring up Bachelu´s infantry division and Foy´s infantry brigade, about some 6500 men, so there was some infantry support. Problem was it was too late, around 5.30p.m. Still a huge mistake by Ney by any means by continually reinforcing failure.

One could only imagine what would have happened if Ney did that first with even more artillery and then had the cavalry charge.

[MrT]

Also the cavalry never spiked any of the allied guns during these charges. They actually overran more than 65 cannons several times but Wellington had calculated that the French would not be able to spike his guns and hence had the artillery crew hide within the squares until the cavalry fell back. At 4p.m. all allied guns deployed against these cavalry attacks had been lost, almost half of the entire allied artillery. For the French this was a wasted oppurtunity that not only affected the results of the future cavalry attacks but also the outcome of the entire battle.

[mattebubben]

Why is not Jean Baptiste Bearnadotte on this list =(

[mattebubben]

Traitor.

in what way is he a Traitor? Napoleon stripped Bearnadotte of his command and when he was Later elected the heir to the Swedish throne Napoleon did not Object he supported the Idea.
Bearnadotte was one of the best Generals of France he got in Trouble alot after Napoleon Became Emperor because they where Rivals and not the best of Friends. Bearnadotte where often put in command of Foreign Troops of lesser Quality than other Marshals and thus could not prove his Capabilities in battle.
He was Also Very Proud and Made many Enemys he got on the Wrong foot with many Marshals and Disliked Several of them For example Berthier and Louis-Nicolas Davout
on the Battle of Auerstedt When Bearnadotte was Told by Davout to assist him he Refused saying that he was Orderd by Napoleon to Remain where he was and unless Napoleon told him otherwise he would do so. Bearnadotte was known to often ride amongst his men in battle to Encourage them
:i know my English is bad no Comments on that Please