American Patriots

[Tigran of Sasoun]

I find it very arrogant with all these Americans saying that the soldiers in Iraq are deing because they want to protect America, or they need to fight. I know some American soldiers believe this to be the trueth but this is total B.S to me. Some people are so arrogant in America that they still believe that fighting the war in Vietnam was necessary and it won America the coldwar. Now without the Americans going to Vietnam the communist would take over, and with the Americans going to Vietnam didnt do much either and the communists took over. Now Vietnam is the new best friend of America, i host an American base and the vietnamese governments wants American tourists, and retired people to come and live there. So if the Vietnam war witch turn out to be useless in the 70's as it looks now should be an example to the American government that people do not need America to get in thier buiness and that the people of the country will handel things on thier own.

So why is it that so many Patriotic Americans still view as fighting in Iraq is the best way to protect America? hasnt history taught them anything? hasnt Vietnam? For me this shows that America never fought Vietnam or the war in Iraq for the protection of the people of America but its economic goals.



Also this is not part of this thread, but you guys should reopen DrakKassleron thread. It is one of the craziest but funniest things i have read in my whole life and he reminds me of the Grand Theft Auto WCTR Area 53 radio show host. DrakKassleron is harmless. LOL SO FUNNY!!!

[barbarion horde]

Last time I visited the U.S (New York City) they clame that "they support the troops, not the war".

Support for Bush and the War in Iraq really depends on which section of the country people live because I noticed that people that live in the Big Cities of the East Coast are ALOT more liberal and anti-war then lets say people from Nebraska. To tell you the truth I don't know many(if any) Americans( across from the ones on these boards) being so "Blindly Patriotic" like the type you mentioned.


Off-Topic:

And I agree reopen Drak's thread, it's freaken hilarious he should be submit his conspiracy theories for rockstar games for they could use it in a GTA radio station.

[removeduser_487563287433]

If nationalism and patriotism allows governments to do what they want to do it will be heavily encouraged.

[Rex331]

Buuuuuuush isss aaaan infaaaaaalible Goddddd... Muuuuust killlll Commmmunism... Muuuuuust stopppppp terrrrrorrism... Must steaaaaal poooor people's moneyyyyyy... Muuuuust eaaaaat braaaaaaaaains....

Do you people really think that we on the far right are ignorant, blind, stupid zombies?

What exactly are you trying to prove with this thread? A citizen does not have to be for a war to be a patriot. Or is this just another Iraq War bashing thread?

To "Support the troops, not the war" is just something people have learned to say after Vietnam. It is the modern Politically Correct way of saying you hate war, fighting, violence, and killing, and that you think anyone who would volunteer to do that is a blind, stupid, ignorant, baby murdering evil bastard. After Vietnam and the truth about the disgraceful way people treated veterans turned out to look like a bad thing for the left, they learned to speak more PC. To pretend to support troops in order to look good and gain votes, and to use their deaths in order to gain support against a president they hate. They try to portray themselves as the “champions of the soldier”, people like Michael Moore at the end of his “documentary”. “Will they ever, trust us, again?” It is ridiculous and distasteful. They are basically saying, I like you, but hate everything you do and everything you stand for. It is like saying, “I support nuclear bombs but not the explosions and radiation they create”.

Oh, and poor DrakKassleron, I bet he's sitting at his PC rocking back and forth, cursing the moderators for secretly being spies for Bush and silencing his Grand Marxist plan to lead a glorious Red Army of the People to kill that evil Bush once and for all.

[removeduser_487563287433]

I don't think political correctness has a single thing to do with that saying.

[PacSubCom]

Do you people really think that we on the far right are ignorant, blind, stupid zombies?

Yes. That's the only reason they could possibly be on the "far right".

Unknowing, unseeing, and with a taste for innocent human flesh, considering the consequences of their and their leaders' actions. It's quite a phenomenon, and they are their own self fulfilling prophecy of the human condition - namely, that people are basically bad. And they are even unthinking, because they parade around with fanfare yelling: "Look at me! I'm far right, like some neo-nazi! HoHoHo! I'm fascist!" Don't expect to be loved.

And they are notorious for applying, out of ignorance, their own morality to others:

"the left of course does only support the troops for political reasons",

not because the troops are human beings whose convictions are used and abused.

Another example of this is that armed forces "stand for and indeed, must be, agents of aggression". What comes with this, implicitly, is that this is some natural law (excusing every action of the political elite). Even if that is the case, the soldiers in the armed forces might feel otherwise, as they believe they are defending good people, even while on the offensive. Most armies are indeed defensive in nature, only a few are force projectors.

Patriots are nationalists. The difference is slim, and below accuracy of measurement in most cases. My country, right or wrong. Automations. To have a whiff of their way of thinking, tune in on FOXNews.com.

The left is cares for people, the right cares for concepts. That is the quintessence, the bottom line. Your choice which is better.

[SovietInsurgent]

There used to be a time when a technologically advanced empire could invade, slaughter, and conquer any smaller and weaker state, while that empire's elite gave nonsensical gibberish as justification to their own public and still get away with it. While the elites still make laughable justifications and get away with it, the conquered can now better resist. Modern media will prevent America from going into Fallujah and crucifying everyone, like the Romans would have done and modern weapons like assault rifles, rpg's, mines, IED's, and suicide bombs give the modern defender infinite "hit and run" capability, mitigating their military disadvantage and giving the invader no resting place. The age of military empires ended with Vietnam, and was confirmed with the Soviet Afghan war. American leaders refuse to accept that they can no longer take from others without consequences, and the American public was no knowledge of history making it easy for the government to claim there is a possibility of victory where none exists.

edit for spelling*

[removeduser_487563287433]

Sure they can. Why not? Just lie about it and everything goes along swimmingly.

[Lord Rahl]

I find it very arrogant with all these Americans saying that the soldiers in Iraq are deing because they want to protect America, or they need to fight. I know some American soldiers believe this to be the trueth but this is total B.S to me. Some people are so arrogant in America that they still believe that fighting the war in Vietnam was necessary and it won America the coldwar. Now without the Americans going to Vietnam the communist would take over, and with the Americans going to Vietnam didnt do much either and the communists took over. Now Vietnam is the new best friend of America, i host an American base and the vietnamese governments wants American tourists, and retired people to come and live there. So if the Vietnam war witch turn out to be useless in the 70's as it looks now should be an example to the American government that people do not need America to get in thier buiness and that the people of the country will handel things on thier own.

Uh oh,

What do you find arrogant with Americans saying that troops overseas are dying for their country? How are they not fighting for America? They ARE however fighting for more then just America. They are fighting for Iraqis, Kurds, British, and basically ever person in Iraq as well (except for the terrorists). Also, how is Vietnam being a friend of America bad? Do you think that if America didn't fight a war in Vietnam the relations would be the same as they are now? Do you think that about Germany or Japan? Obviously what the US did in these countries (for good and bad) had long lasting effects on both peoples which made an interesting bond between the two.

So why is it that so many Patriotic Americans still view as fighting in Iraq is the best way to protect America? hasnt history taught them anything? hasnt Vietnam? For me this shows that America never fought Vietnam or the war in Iraq for the protection of the people of America but its economic goals.

Who says fighting in America s the best way to defend it? This war isn't about defending America. This war is much more. This war is about defending Americans, Iraqis, British, etc., alike. This is about rebuilding a war and torture torn country. This is about making a democracy in the middle east. This is about freedom. The troops over there didn't join the army because they were forced to. These men volunteered. You should be asking why these brave men and women VOLUNTEERED to give their lives if need be. And, if these men and women don't die for their people, their country, their way of life, then I fail to see the point of volunteering.

[Erik]

Do you people really think that we on the far right are ignorant, blind, stupid zombies?

Maybe not zombies.

[Tigran of Sasoun]

Uh oh,

What do you find arrogant with Americans saying that troops overseas are dying for their country? How are they not fighting for America? They ARE however fighting for more then just America. They are fighting for Iraqis, Kurds, British, and basically ever person in Iraq as well (except for the terrorists). Also, how is Vietnam being a friend of America bad? Do you think that if America didn't fight a war in Vietnam the relations would be the same as they are now? Do you think that about Germany or Japan? Obviously what the US did in these countries (for good and bad) had long lasting effects on both peoples which made an interesting bond between the two.



Who says fighting in America s the best way to defend it? This war isn't about defending America. This war is much more. This war is about defending Americans, Iraqis, British, etc., alike. This is about rebuilding a war and torture torn country. This is about making a democracy in the middle east. This is about freedom. The troops over there didn't join the army because they were forced to. These men volunteered. You should be asking why these brave men and women VOLUNTEERED to give their lives if need be. And, if these men and women don't die for their people, their country, their way of life, then I fail to see the point of volunteering.

I think that if America Bomb my whole country where there was almost nothing left, and killed over 2 million civillians would make me somewhat angry against them and the government of this country would not want to have good realations with the US. Now since the trueth is that the Vietnamese people were fighting Imperialism and self determination not to one day become so strong to destroy America. So you are telling me that because America went to Vietnam and did all these things and in some cases the soldiers raped and murdered, that is why the people of Vietnam want them back? The trueth is that America made its people believe that the Vietnamese were the bib bad wolf out to get America and were there to destroy democracy for the whole world. This sounds alot like Iraq no? Bib bad Saddam with his WMD waiting for the right moment to destroy America and Isreal.

I could and would disagree with you there. No other country seems to need and want the help of the American protection, why did the Iraqis need it? The fact is that things are worse in Iraq now than Under Saddam. To say Saddam was evil because he killed thousands of people during war and uprisings is right. But the funny thing is that America is doing the same thing, but for America it is collateral damage.

[Lord Rahl]

I think that if America Bomb my whole country where there was almost nothing left, and killed over 2 million civillians would make me somewhat angry against them and the government of this country would not want to have good realations with the US.

I ask again, then why do the Japanese and Germans have such good relations with the USA, relatively speaking? When the USA invades or enters a war it doesn't do it just to destory all who dwell there. There is invasion, occupation, and then rebuilding.

Now since the trueth is that the Vietnamese people were fighting Imperialism and self determination not to one day become so strong to destroy America. So you are telling me that because America went to Vietnam and did all these things and in some cases the soldiers raped and murdered, that is why the people of Vietnam want them back?

No, and I would never say that. But thanks for just naming all the horrible things that happened.

Do you think that Communism had absolutley nothing to do with the war? Perhaps the French were at fault?

The trueth is that America made its people believe that the Vietnamese were the bib bad wolf out to get America and were there to destroy democracy for the whole world. This sounds alot like Iraq no? Bib bad Saddam with his WMD waiting for the right moment to destroy America and Isreal.

That's the truth? I don't take your word for it. The Vietnamese people were not the enemy. Do you think that the Iraqis are the enemy in Iraq? I think not.

No other country seems to need and want the help of the American protection, why did the Iraqis need it? The fact is that things are worse in Iraq now than Under Saddam. To say Saddam was evil because he killed thousands of people during war and uprisings is right. But the funny thing is that America is doing the same thing, but for America it is collateral damage.

Then perhaps the UN or NATO doesn't need the USA. Perhaps the USA never needed to enter into both world wars. Why did the Iraqis need the USA's protection? Think about that question again, then I'll answer. You gave the answer in the next sentence. I'm not finding the logic behind the remark of the USA being like Saddam. Do we target enthicities? Do we put women in meat grinders? Or torture a man for stealing? No, no, and no.

[Honeohvovohaestse]

Just like Veitnam was fighting for America? Fighting for people who are not in danger is laughable.

[Rex331]

Yes. That's the only reason they could possibly be on the "far right".

Unknowing, unseeing, and with a taste for innocent human flesh, considering the consequences of their and their leaders' actions. It's quite a phenomenon, and they are their own self fulfilling prophecy of the human condition - namely, that people are basically bad. And they are even unthinking, because they parade around with fanfare yelling: "Look at me! I'm far right, like some neo-nazi! HoHoHo! I'm fascist!" Don't expect to be loved. .

And you wonder why America is moving more and more to the Right. Don’t make wild and irrational accusations and expect to be taken seriously. The Left’s doctrine of “The Right is evil lets insult and hate them all day! The people will love us!” Is not working out too well in the long run. You found that out in the last election. Even comparing the American far right with neo-Nazis all but proves your ignorance.

And they are notorious for applying, out of ignorance, their own morality to others:

"the left of course does only support the troops for political reasons",

not because the troops are human beings whose convictions are used and abused.

Another example of this is that armed forces "stand for and indeed, must be, agents of aggression". What comes with this, implicitly, is that this is some natural law (excusing every action of the political elite). Even if that is the case, the soldiers in the armed forces might feel otherwise, as they believe they are defending good people, even while on the offensive. Most armies are indeed defensive in nature, only a few are force projectors.

Most armies are defensive in nature? And I guess violence never solves anything? History is not on your side, my friend. And how are the military used and abused? We have a volunteer military. “We support the troops, not the war” would only apply if these men and women were forced to serve. They are there because they want to be there. It is ridiculous to say “I support you the individual, but not what you are doing, how you are doing it, and why you are doing it”.

Patriots are nationalists. The difference is slim, and below accuracy of measurement in most cases. My country, right or wrong. Automations. To have a whiff of their way of thinking, tune in on FOXNews.com.

Yes, everyone who supports their nation is wrong and stupid, because you know the truth, and they are all blind and ignorant! You can see past all of the foolish notions of “Patriotism”, “Nationalism”, “Selflessness”, and “Sacrifice”, because these things are stupid and only a stupid person could possible think they are good! Yes, those that love their nation and its citizens more than any other nation are evil, because… because, it’s wrong!!! It is their fault that there is evil in the world, because they created it! If there were no people like that, the world would be a nice little happy place and we would all dance around trees singing songs! Who gave you the moral superiority to condemn those that live and die to keep you and me and all Americans safe? How can you claim you “Support the troops, but not the war”, when you just insulted every single one of them?
Brainless zombies, are they? I think you just helped prove my first post.

The left is cares for people, the right cares for concepts. That is the quintessence, the bottom line. Your choice which is better.

Give me a break. It is irrational to believe one side is more “evil” than the other. Both the Right and Left care only for their point of view and everything that point of view entails. The Left has no moral superiority over the Right, or vice versa for that matter. They are just different ways of looking at things. One difference that I do see however, is that the Left seems more to hate the people on the Right, while the Right seems more to hate the concepts on the Left.

[Da Skinna]

It always disturbs me on at least a small level, when someone tries to make politicians the most sympathetic and humane people, always for the good of their country...

They're politicians, high level politicians, and they didn't get there by writing a fat check to the Red Cross... Politics is supposed to be about what's good for the public, at least in this day and age, but isn't there enough anomalies that indicate otherwise?

Politicians are the rich whores with looks of gold, to say it basically. Simply, when it comes down to it, they'd probably choose to keep their Mercedes' instead of saving the lives of a few people... I know I probably would, as would many people, though they don't like thinking it.

This war in Iraq, isn't there enough anomalies that were given away by the White House? The lack of information and intelligence? The lack of the White House's promises, like the weapons of mass destruction? The sudden change of attitude from WMD's to spreading freedom (cuz that'll win our hearts... or at least our gullability), and their evasiveness of talking about the WMD's, or the other falsities?

So why keep protecting them, they wouldn't for you, oh they say they will, but when it comes down to it, choosing between you and their Mercedes', don't count on seeing another day unless they can spin it wildly, for their own goals...

I myself choose to be an independant or a centrist, not liberal, not conservative, or Donkey, or Elephant, but I have my own morals, and I would choose not to be assinied by any of these parties.

And what's so great to gloat about being far-something? That makes more blinded, not being able to see the other side, from that FAR perch you got. It gives you more convictions, and less of the ability to be fair, and to govern properly in a multi-cultural democracy. Like I said, you can't see the left's view, or at least indulge/taste/whiff when you're so far to the right. And vice versa.

[Erik]

Perhaps the USA never needed to enter into both world wars.

Ah, the age old "America helped out in WWII so they can't do anything wrong" argument.

Too bad Iraq isn't WW II or III, the situation is very different.
For starters things were under control before the war (no fly zones, weapon inspectors, etc.)

Why did the Iraqis need the USA's protection? Think about that question again, then I'll answer.

Because the US gave Saddam WMD's in the Iraq/Iran war?
Good thing those WMD's were destroyed by Clinton.

I'm not finding the logic behind the remark of the USA being like Saddam. Do we target enthicities? Do we put women in meat grinders? Or torture a man for stealing? No, no, and no.

You mean: no, no and yes? (Abu Ghraib, remember?)

[Ó Cathasaigh]

You mean: no, no and yes? (Abu Ghraib, remember?)

Ever hear of a place called Auschwitz? Does that mean all Germans torture and execute people in mass?

Hey I hear there was a drunk driver in detriot who ran over someone, that must meen everyone from detriot are drunkards.

[Da Skinna]

You mean: no, no and yes? (Abu Ghraib, remember?)

You mean if they're suspected of stealing, nothing about being guilty, just suspected of dealing with stolen goods, or terrorists, cuz they fit the profile... then again, they all do.

[Kanaric]

Everyone where I live are on the "Support the troops and not the war" idea. You can be patriotic and still be anti-war.....

The main thing is because of what happened in Vietnam. Returning soldiers were assaulted, ripped on, and generally treated poorly. Now because of that people from that generation dont want it to happen the the modern generation who are serving in Iraq. Its as simple as that, its not some right-wing conspiracy and its not because americans are "blind".

I'm starting to be convinced that all the level headed and normal people from this board have dissapeared with the topics that have been coming up lately on this board. Get in touch with reality, thx.

[Cwn]

About the whole patriotic thing: One of the many reasons that a large number of europeans dislike America is, that in television or news or in some other media, we hear all those damn patriotic people being VERY, VERY proud of their country, THE DAMN BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, YEEHAA!!!

...

Seriously, some americans should take it easy when it comes to loving their homeland. I'm Danish, and I like my country. But I wouldn't say that it's the best country in the world, or even be proud of being Danish. How can you be proud of being 'American' or 'Danish'? You can still be a REAL AS'SHOLE. Just beacuse you're born in a specific country doesn't mean that you're great. Did you contribute to anything at all? Did you realy help someone outhere in the world, someone who needed help?

Patriots rarely do. And no, helping poor people isn't the only way to do somthing good. It's just an example.

Patriots reminds me of Nazis. I know that I'm way off now, but there's just somthing about being DAMN PROUD OF YOUR COUNTRY that sounds like THE GERMANIC RACE IS THE PURE RACE.

Thank you for your time.