3.4 XAI for PDER Bug and Balancing reporting

[xeryx]

Please be kind guys for the people with low bandwidth.

Use the spoiler tags for each screen shot or a thumbnail. ( I edited yours Achilla, it is fixed again..;P)

Good Screen shots, Achilla i will take a look at them. Hopefully I will see the point to what you are showing me.

[Achilla]

Please be kind guys for the people with low bandwidth.

Use the spoiler tags for each screen shot or a thumbnail. ( I edited yours Achilla)

Good Screen shots, Achilla i will take a look at them. Hopefully I will see the point to what you are showing me.

These are basically random screenshots of battles vs Turks, BBB 4.0 traits and some others.

Not sure why you edited it this way since now every opened spoiler pops up two exactly identical images, LOL ;d

I guess you were right but still shouldn't a 1mb and above bandwidth be a standard now ? ;p reminds me of stupid jokes about wooden russian modems ;d

[Derfele]

Hey Achilla -- liked the screenies, but no, Australia is behind...like way behind in bandwith! I have 1500/256, and that is unusual...
Mostly our ping is like, grab a Kangaroo, shove a message in his pouch, point him in the right direction....

[xeryx]

Ok I have been busy working on some thing with basic balancing of costs.

1) Decreased growth rate due to trade..adn increased squaller for pop
2) Adjusted a couple of order, items
3) decreased the income, including trade.

All militia and Levy units are one turn production, and double checked and fixed the maintenance.
Removing fire arrows from peasant archers. The costs wont be perfect, but I don't want to fiddle with them too much more.
So now the game should be better scaled, but I may still need to adjust some incomes of the bigger guys some they make far too much in comparison to what they spend. The money scripts seem fine.

[tobi_808]

will any further changes and fixes of the balancing mean,
that i would have to start a new campaign ?

- is it possible, that in near future you will fix some parts of the XAI or anything else included in 3.4,
which cause to start a new campaign ?

- i played the campaign for only 1 day now, but it is quite amazing how the Ai forces you in battles ...

- but why Sicily and Englang declared war in round 5 ?
- will it be like in Empire, where all nations are in war after round 10 ? or does this happen, because i choose to play VH/VH ?

- Also i tested some bahavior of the AI on the green;

I noticed, if the AI has got 2 Archers and I've 3 of them,
like in the Demo - but if I am not defender, but the AI:
the Ai does not decide to Attack, it behaves like in Vanilla - in lets the archers fire,
but the main part of the army is reforming all the time or changes to loose formation and back again ...
untill my archers have fired all there aroows toward the enemy - 32% of the army was killed by my archers, while the Ai killed only 4% of my men.
After that i attacked and won easily, i did not ebven loose any cavalry unit and so on ...

But - in the case, that the AI does not own any archers: it attacks You, nevermind that you are originally the one, who attacks - that is great !

IF I AM DEFENDER - I: 3 archers, AI: 2 - the AI attacks, just like in the Preview of 3.4 !!
If nobody is defender, both are attacking - the AI does the same it attacks you !!

[Puer]

There is a bug with build points:

I had 164 build points.

Bug: 50+50+15+15+15+65

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Correct result: 50+50+15+15+65+15

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[xeryx]

will any further changes and fixes of the balancing mean,
that i would have to start a new campaign ?

- is it possible, that in near future you will fix some parts of the XAI or anything else included in 3.4,
which cause to start a new campaign ?

- i played the campaign for only 1 day now, but it is quite amazing how the Ai forces you in battles ...

- but why Sicily and Englang declared war in round 5 ?
- will it be like in Empire, where all nations are in war after round 10 ? or does this happen, because i choose to play VH/VH ?

- Also i tested some bahavior of the AI on the green;

I noticed, if the AI has got 2 Archers and I've 3 of them,
like in the Demo - but if I am not defender, but the AI:
the Ai does not decide to Attack, it behaves like in Vanilla - in lets the archers fire,
but the main part of the army is reforming all the time or changes to loose formation and back again ...
untill my archers have fired all there aroows toward the enemy - 32% of the army was killed by my archers, while the Ai killed only 4% of my men.
After that i attacked and won easily, i did not ebven loose any cavalry unit and so on ...

But - in the case, that the AI does not own any archers: it attacks You, nevermind that you are originally the one, who attacks - that is great !

IF I AM DEFENDER - I: 3 archers, AI: 2 - the AI attacks, just like in the Preview of 3.4 !!
If nobody is defender, both are attacking - the AI does the same it attacks you !!

Good posting BTW

OK let me explain something to you guys that many people do not seem to know. In the CUSTOM BATTLE generator! It is really only place to initially test AI. There are MANY things the AI will not do in the CUSTOM battle generator. The AI will not pick defensive formation is one of these things. So you need to be testing in the campaign for that kind of stuff.

The AI will have shootouts with you, in both campaign that is normal. It is trying to weaken you a bit first (missiles).

There is a bug with build points:

I had 165 build points.

Bug: 50+50+15+15+15+65

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Correct result: 50+50+15+15+65+15

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Good catch..we'll see about that one

[tobi_808]

allright, but is it possible, to quick answer, in which way the changes,
that will be done in the next weeks - will be savegamecompatible ???

Sorry, but is is quite important for a person, who wants to invest only time into a campaign,
which he can also finish !!! I really hate starting again and again ...
I simply have too much work to do afk, before I could play a 40 hour campaign for nothing ...
---------------------

Because i would like to test: do you know,
if there are any compability problems with the Crimson & Tide mod ?
- i had a look and your mod uses same files few times, particle.txt / impact.txt and
cloud.sprites.tga.dds - will it work or no chance ?
So are these files that important, that 3.4 will not work, if these are changed ?

[xeryx]

Sorry tobi a cant share your pain..rassen frezzen I never get to have a full campaign. But yes these next set of changes should be by tomorrow, and yes you will need to restart. Sorry i didn't answer you before i meant too, adn got side tracked.

Good i love short bug report lists!! I will be packaging up the stuff tonight!

Oh yes, i put the one province faction back to two, just because they do so much better. It's for game play.

We also found some typos..imagine that. Gave more money to factions. there just isn't enough for the AI to build buildings with. So, here we go!! Jump

[tobi_808]

Ok, don't you think the Campaign Ai is quite too much agressive ?

I mean i am in round 13 ? or whatever and the pope is calling for a holy crusade ...
How shell i build an full stack army within 9 rounds ?
Shell i send over all my men i own ?
(and - where does he wants me to put them ... the target is quahira ...
- why quahira ??? - but it is unpossible to recruit troops and ship there till 9 rounds are gone ...)

[xeryx]

TOBI to answer your question, which I have posted many times...LOWER the level of difficulty of the campaign. XAI VH is suppose to be crazy with lots of wars and friends you can't trust

I recommned easy and medium levels for people who like to go slower, they are not that much easier. Even at EASY the AI will not be a pushover. But will be easier to deal with and not have wars. So try it, plerase

You are all brainwashed into thinking the VH is the only level, and it was with most other AI's..not XAI.

Report to the construct immediately, so Dearmad can upgrade that program...

[Derfele]

Greetings all.

Where am I up to & game plan:
Have played 10 turns as Scotland - vh/vh.
Not playing any Iron-man rules, just using my best strategy.

Alliances -- making alliances with groups of factions to hopefully create "Power Blocks" that will hold each other at bay.

Initially - a Blitzkrieg campaign to take as many Lesser Factions (ie: rebels) before gripping with a named Game Faction.


Alliance Blocks - Areas:
1) Denmark, Poland, Teutonic area (they have Heiliges Romisches Reich [HRE] + Lithuania & Mongols to contend with)
2) Spain area (Moors to contend with, possibly France)
3) Hungary, Venice, Papal States & Sicily (Egypt, Moors, HRE, Byzantine, Turks to contend with)
4) Antioch & Jerusalem area (Egypt, Moors, Turks to contend with)

Not sure if this will work, but interesting....
I didn't ally with England or France since I intent to invade England & vassal the Frenchies.
Possibly take some HRE also.
Left Norway as an expansion option too. Plus, I didn't want to break an alliance if Norway & Denmark went for each other.



Expansion:
In 10 turns, to winter of 1084.
Have taken 5 rebel settlements in order:
- North Scotland
- 3 in Ireland
- Wales

If there are still rebel settlements in northern France I will take those before provoking England to war. I have not toggled fow, so will have to sail past it again & spy before committing.


PDER:
Really like the mod.
Bit shocked to see units with an attack of 1 & defense of 1, like low archers.
Thought they wouldn't be able to shoot anybody, but all armour levels are down a bit & whatever the mathematics are they still work.

Interestingly, you can't just keep churning out good units from the Castles due to the longer wait to replenish. This biulds a nice extra strategy element in the battles. I am much more reluctant to commit my 2 units of "elite" Heavy Infantry because I know it is 6 turns until i can make another & retraining them just pushes this time limit higher. It also means much of your army is made of militia type troops. Nice touch.

The upkeep of professional troops also limits how many you will have in an army.


Really enjoy the extra traits:
Supply Trait -- what a cool way to include this in a Campaign!
Health trait - means you look after their supply a bit more
Catches the King's Eye - like that concept
of Scottish Blood - nice, means you care more about who will ascend to the throne - not some upstart!

Ancillaries:
Heir Futurus - you give this to the one you want to be Prince next I assume (does it jump them up to be King over the prince in waiting (heir apparent)?
Archbishop of the realm is a nice touch.



XCAI (Campaign AI):
Haven't really played enough to see this yet.
Any ideas what I should look for?
Note: I have never played vanilla...so have little to compair it with.




XBAI (Battle AI):
Now this was something very special!
In all the fights so far, I have had a superior force - mostly 4:1 or better.
However, I am used to charging down exposed archers etc... Well, tell you what not that easy now.
I see the AI making a real effort to protect it's range troops.

I snuck around the back of a non-walled village with General because there was a path to get into the archers at town square from the rear, however 300m from impact, the archers moved forward and the HorseBoys moved to intercept. I was held by those HorseyBoys while 2xarchers and 2xSkirmisher javelins hammered at me. Immediate retreat! I survived in part to the buildings blocking direct fire...

I had to draw those horseyboys out while under archer fire to get rid of their hampering. Now the road to charge & glory was clear! Then the AI moved 1 of it's light infantry to cover the archers & stop my charging antics. Very Nice.

Because the rebels only had 2x Light Infantry and 4 missile units, they couldn't continually cover every avenue I could attack - I had 3x generals. But I had to really work for it! It certainly would be more difficult against a better resourced enemy! Not looking forward to battling England...the blighters are rich too...

All this means it is a real "felt commitment" to go to battle, you really will count to see if you can pay the cost...
Most immersive



Auto Resolve:
It was good to see this was working well. In each battle I did the Auto resolve, then reloaded for my own go at things. I did better than the Auto, but it was certainly in the ball-park. It gave Clear Victories when it should have, without my General ending up dead.



Possible XBAI (Battle AI) Improvements?
These are only small options and they don't take away from the overall excellent AI response!

1) Small Wooden wall defense
When attacking a wooden (ram-able) wall, the AI sticks troops there ready to defend the breach. However, this leaves them very open to arrow fire through the gaps. Plus the AI doesn't gather sufficient troops for a decent go at defending the breach - too many looking after town square - mind you, it may have a minimum number it leaves in town square, so couldn't afford much at the breach.

Is it possible to have them hang back to prevent arrow fire when it is a ram-able wooden wall?
Can they mount their defense heavily at the breach with archer backup since this is the most vulnerable point for the attacker?

2) Last Men in Town Square
In taking a rebel settlement, I moved troops into town square. The AI only had 1 General Unit remaining. The count-down clock started for me to gain the town, but the Rebel General just stood there. I didn't attack - well I had a spearmen wall and was trying to reduce losses, so I wasn't going to move on him. The General stood & time ran out. -- I know it was suicide for a rebel General - no chance of randsom (not sure if there is either for a Game Named Faction when taking a town?) So, perhaps he should have charged -- I would take more losses & feel his wrath.





Bugs / Unknowns:
Traits:
I had a General who had supply (Supplied), yet had the trait Unhealthy (limited access to resources & foodstuffs, the body will weaken over time -1 hit point) I put him in a city & he was Relatively Healthy (ie good health) next turn. The supply had been spoiled, so maybe the General is affected before the troops start to really feel it. After all, he is used to fine wine & dine I guess?


Question -- Screenshots
What is the command to do a spoiler screenshot. I may want to post some at some stage...


Cheers,
Derf.

[Pnutmaster]

Thanks for the post, Derfele!

Bugs / Unknowns:
Traits:
I had a General who had supply (Supplied), yet had the trait Unhealthy (limited access to resources & foodstuffs, the body will weaken over time -1 hit point) I put him in a city & he was Relatively Healthy (ie good health) next turn. The supply had been spoiled, so maybe the General is affected before the troops start to really feel it. After all, he is used to fine wine & dine I guess?

With documentation lacking in this area, I will explain.

There are 6 levels to the Supply System (from lowest to highest):
1) Supply: Starving
2) Supply: Desperate
3) Supply: Foraging
4) Supply: Supplied
5) Supply: Fully Supplied
6) Supply: Spoiled!

All characters start at Relatively Healthy and Fully Supplied and automatically return to said levels upon spending a turn in a settlement. If a resting character (in a settlement) is a skilled bureaucrat, he will see that his men are abundantly supplied, aka, Spoiled.

Time spent in enemy territory has a chance to deplete supplies (reflective, more or less, of the state of the army) and worsen the general's health. No matter the level of provisions, there is always a chance (however minuscule) that a general will become Unhealthy out in the field. However, so long as the army remains at least Fully Supplied, the general can return to Relative Health without returning to a settlement.

Essentially, a general's health should start declining as the army's supplies are depleted. Even when the army is Desperate or Starving, it is not uncommon for the general to merely be Unhealthy, even perhaps Relatively Healthy (he'd have priority when rations were doled out).

I hope that sheds some light on the Health and Supply systems. May they immerse you in your PDER campaign (and I wouldn't mind some constructive feedback on the rate of Supply depletion, hehehe).

Question -- Screenshots
What is the command to do a spoiler screenshot. I may want to post some at some stage...

Hit the "quote" button on this post and look at the code used to write the message below.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Greetings

[xeryx]

Goodnight Guys..I will be pretty busy the next few days so enjoy, I posted the 3.4.01 version up. I only made a minor change to the bai...all the other changes are to the PDER files. That will be the end of the changes for awhile.

So we want lots of feedback, because what we do here helps the future generation of mods!!

[Derfele]

Thanks Pnutmaster, appreciate the explanation & spoiler how to - now why didn't I think of that?
Great work on PDER by the way, BRAVO!


**Blood Effects**
Also, I don't get any blood effects in PDER with XAI. I presume they are included (BBB mod?). Do you need to set unit or effects on high to see them? --Any advise?
Perhaps I should re-install the mod?



Cheers,
Derf.
ps: will start a new campaign for testing...

Greetings Tobi,
Good to see you getting into PDER.

To answer these questions:

allright, but is it possible, to quick answer, in which way the changes,
that will be done in the next weeks - will be savegamecompatible ???

Sorry, but is is quite important for a person, who wants to invest only time into a campaign,
which he can also finish !!! I really hate starting again and again ...
I simply have too much work to do afk, before I could play a 40 hour campaign for nothing ...
---------------------

1) Save game -- Unfortunately any change in the files, even to 1 unit will mean you need to start a new game (a previous saved game just won't load). I know, it is a pain.

2) As for your investment of time:
I too have limited playing resources - wife, 2 full-on kids, plus work.
However, I decided to devote what playing time I have to testing for these guys (I'm not like an official tester). Because they have invested generously in making mods that add so much to MTW.

However, it requires a change in perspective.
I will have some fun & see each update as a mini-campaign. This will help PDER & XAI get to a good balance, more bug free "final product" in a quicker time-span.

This serves 3 purposes -
1) Develop some relationships with the modders (perhaps even friendships), I have learned they like hearing that we enjoy what they have done. It encourages them significantly.

2) It is a way I can practically help (hopefully) and says thank-you in the time I take to test for them. It is giving something back to those who have given me much more in enjoyment of MTW

3) It also will produce a better PDER XAI, more quickly. With a decent number of people entering into a sound process of constructive feedback, the better and quicker PDER XAI "final" will arrive. It will also significantly help other mods incorperate XAI.

--Of course, this does take a change in perspective to adopt this as a mindset, but if you choose to, then re-starting a mini-campaign will be exciting rather than draining -- the goal is closer



The other option is to lurk around and wait until a "final" is finished...
But I think more is gained by being part of that process to bring the "final" to fruition.

Cheers,
Derf.

[Achilla]

Thanks Pnutmaster, appreciate the explanation & spoiler how to - now why didn't I think of that?
Great work on PDER by the way, BRAVO!


**Blood Effects**
Also, I don't get any blood effects in PDER with XAI. I presume they are included (BBB mod?). Do you need to set unit or effects on high to see them? --Any advise?
Perhaps I should re-install the mod?



Cheers,
Derf.
ps: will start a new campaign for testing...

BBB mod is a character traits mod, it has nothing to do with visual blood over battlefield (blood, broads, bastards ... blood as for royal line/bastard blood in family tree).

[Puer]

IMHO it's too easy score allies. I play as CAI/BAI: H/VH. I have 2 diplomats & with most of negotiation I achieve: trade rights (100%) + alliance (95%) + map info (90%).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[xeryx]

@ Peur ; So just to make sure, it is installed correctly. As long as it is that, then what have you had to give up to get allies? I certainly can make it harder for you as the human. But how hard is the question. When you guys give feedback, please be specific to the problem.. Site specific example. When it comes to diplomacy I need to know your standing with the faction. If you are though of in a good light alliances can be easy to start with. Also why would you want to seek that many alliances? In XAI you will have many decisions to make later in who you keep as allies. Making too many just because you can is not recommended. I will definitely look at making it harder though, that is one thing we don't want to happen is too easy of diplomacy.

Possible XBAI (Battle AI) Improvements?
These are only small options and they don't take away from the overall excellent AI response!

1) Small Wooden wall defense
When attacking a wooden (ram-able) wall, the AI sticks troops there ready to defend the breach. However, this leaves them very open to arrow fire through the gaps. Plus the AI doesn't gather sufficient troops for a decent go at defending the breach - too many looking after town square - mind you, it may have a minimum number it leaves in town square, so couldn't afford much at the breach. Is it possible to have them hang back to prevent arrow fire when it is a ram-able wooden wall?
Can they mount their defense heavily at the breach with archer backup since this is the most vulnerable point for the attacker?

Not much can be done there. The reason the settings must cover all settlements, as best as possible. I consider palisades in the lower 10% list

2) Last Men in Town Square
In taking a rebel settlement, I moved troops into town square. The AI only had 1 General Unit remaining. The count-down clock started for me to gain the town, but the Rebel General just stood there. I didn't attack - well I had a spearmen wall and was trying to reduce losses, so I wasn't going to move on him. The General stood & time ran out. -- I know it was suicide for a rebel General - no chance of randsom (not sure if there is either for a Game Named Faction when taking a town?) So, perhaps he should have charged -- I would take more losses & feel his wrath.

I will look at the responsiveness, of units from the square.

[Derfele]

BBB mod is a character traits mod, it has nothing to do with visual blood over battlefield (blood, broads, bastards ... blood as for royal line/bastard blood in family tree).

Thanks Achilla!
I have only played KGC & it has the feature, so I just assumed it was part of vannilla MTW.
So, I assumed my version of PDER was messed up somehow, so I re-installed it... aie, yia, ya ya yia.

Can it be simply added in (like real horses, or the City mod) ?
Anyone know where to go for it?

Cheers,
Derf.

[Pnutmaster]

IMHO it's too easy score allies. I play as CAI/BAI: H/VH. I have 2 diplomats & with most of negotiation I achieve: trade rights (100%) + alliance (95%) + map info (90%).

I can attest to this.



- I also bring attention to the many German stacks gathered around the French. Why would the AI (Catholic, Orthodox and Muslim factions) not consolidate them into larger stacks, maximizing their strength? SavageAI claims to correct this, and I wonder how it is accomplished...

EDIT: Based on this feedback, I wonder if the many smaller stacks are a result of overloading the AI with money? (increasing their Kings Purse by 1000 with each turn...).



- The Byzantines were able to effectively blitzkrieg the Turks. Alarmingly, the visible Turk stack made no attempt to repel any of the three Byzantine sieges (when it could have obviously defeated Konya's besiegers), allowing its faction to be reduced to a single settlement.

Ancillaries:
Heir Futurus - you give this to the one you want to be Prince next I assume (does it jump them up to be King over the prince in waiting (heir apparent)?

I forgot to address this in my last post.

The "Heir Futurus" ancillary is a realization of konny's method to influence Faction Heir selection. It allows you to choose who will become your next faction heir following the death of your current king. If your current faction heir dies before the king, the ancillary is rendered powerless.

Can it be simply added in (like real horses, or the City mod) ?
Anyone know where to go for it?

Yes. All blood effects are contained in the folder called overlaytextures (within the main PDER 1.0/data). Here is a link to Burrek's Blood mod.