How to become a Buddha in 5 weeks... or: THE EDU THREAD

[Hister]

Because from their equipment they I thought them as semi-elite, so I gave them 40 soldiers as other good melee fighters

Ah I see. Will change to 60 if testing will tell so.

In my latest EDU I moved Romani to the top of the file to test them, if you test the different classes of legionarii you'll see enough differencies in performance despite their similar morale stats, precisely because all stats are influenced by morale. I made Hastati to be roughly equal or slightly inferior in performance to better swordsmen of other people, Principes slightly superior but still weaker than hoplites, and Triarii equal to greek Hoplitai, so slightly superior to Italic hoplites. If your tests point out that the current balance is not acceptable we can surely change the stats.

It's a deal.

Because according to the EDU guide by Aradan "hide_long_grass" include the effect of "hide_improved_forest"

Really! Dunno, I suppose you interpreted it wrongly. This is what Aradan says on the matter in his edu guide:

hide_forest, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, hide_anywhere: defines where the unit can hide. If absent, it means that the unit won't be able to hide at all. "hide_anywhere" includes all the others and "hide_improved_forest" of course includes "hide_forest".

Maybe you saw something written somewhere else on that thread?

About cavalry lances, I agree with DaVinci that "power_charge" is excessive, but "frighten_foot" should be very realistic: historically, in actual battles, army-vs.-army, the main role of cavalry was disrupting morale of enemy infantry, hunting fugitives, and prevent enemy cavalry to do the same. Since as DaVinci pointed out our morale values are a little bit higher than they maybe should be, adding "frighten_foot" to cavalry should not be unbalancing, I hope

I agree. Testing will tell.

I have to retire my offer of help I have the will, but not nearly the time to do such exciting (I'm sick, I know) work of tuning: you have my files and my ideas, now it's to you to decide what to do with them!

Fair enough

I think should be more realistic to have a greater difference in both attack and range of wooden-composite bows, and my tests showed that slings are powerful enough without bonus to attack, if you give them a little boost to range, but however, the decision is yours, balance is ALWAYS a matter of perspective Really, I suggest my opinion, but I'm fine with whatever you decide

Oh I haven't realized that you have increased the range for composite bow and sling in your last model! Will adopt your new ranges. Your new values might be perfectly finely balanced when you take into consideration that hoplite units have lesser shield values now (shieldwall now 5 instead of 8). Your model suggests only one point difference between the two bows. Are you referring to your model or mine about having

greater difference in both attack and range of wooden-composite bows

? Am wondering since my model has exactly the same 1 value difference between the two bows.

Well, now that I have left this work to you you can do as you want, to keep old values or to adopt the new ones, or, if the changes are minimal, to not care about the discrepancies for now (my personal suggestion)

Umh, means I have to redo all my part of the EDU again since the discrepancies are gonna be to big. Feel kind'a sick when I think about it... I will survive, don't worry. Will have to say my girlfriend to keep away sharp objects or ropes from me for a day or to. LOL

I decided the +1 to cavalry shields partly because horsemen are sit, not standing, so they offer a smaller target, partly because the small protection granted by the horse, that is more resilient that a human: but I'm not sure about this particular bonus, maybe I should discard it If you decide that it should be abandoned, I'll do this by myself

Nah, leave it as is. You made a good point there! Hope that testing is gonna give good results.

Okey, means I'll do it, he he.

I can give to 16-20 morale units a recruitment time of 2-3 turns, with some exceptions, like 1 turn for principes, and 4 for Spartiatai (in my last tests they really kicked asses, maybe toot much); we can also give 0 rec time for units with 10 moral or inferior, with some exceptions here as well: for example, maybe hastati should have 0 as well, representing the fast replacement of losses typical of the Romans... and so on. What do you think?

Sounds perfectly fine! Good idea. For spartans I would maybe even have 6 recruitment time. Give 3 for the likes like Marsi.

I'm sorry I'm such undependable, but as I said, I have to leave the greatest part of the work to you, I'll do only simple and fast optimization like that recruitment time issue

Please don't say sorry - you did so much on the matter that I can't accept no sorry from you mate! It's a hindrance for sure since I thought you will do the part of the work that now I'll have to do it. It will postpone quite a bit the whole thing - team working on PI II is eagerly avaiting to receive finalised edu so that they speed up the process by copy-pasting parts of our EDU to theirs... Looks like I was giving promises to soon.

Thanx again for everything Aper, awaiting you to upload the EDU.

[Aper]

Maybe you saw something written somewhere else on that thread?

Oops!!!

Oh I haven't realized that you have increased the range for composite bow and sling in your last model! Will adopt your new ranges. Your new values might be perfectly finely balanced when you take into consideration that hoplite units have lesser shield values now (shieldwall now 5 instead of 8). Your model suggests only one point difference between the two bows. Are you referring to your model or mine about having ? Am wondering since my model has exactly the same 1 value difference between the two bows.

I was speaking about the old model, where there was 2 points of difference; I increased the value of wooden bows attack because before that there was no sense in recruiting archers instead of slingers; if not unbalancing, maybe should be in order to increase a little bit further the attack of composite bows (+3).

Umh, means I have to redo all my part of the EDU again since the discrepancies are gonna be to big. Feel kind'a sick when I think about it... I will survive, don't worry. Will have to say my girlfriend to keep away sharp objects or ropes from me for a day or to. LOL

Thanx again for everything Aper, awaiting you to upload the EDU.

[Hister]

[Aper]

Here we go, it should be fine (check it!)

[Hister]

Thank you very much Aper! I will check it and also redo my 60+ units according to your latest model. Please promise me something - don't change the model again
No seriously Aper - I really appreciate your work, most others would disappear but you haven't, you kept your promise and delivered the EDU. A deep bow to you mate.

- I noticed that you gave mount_effect horse +6 to all javelin units. Will have to check if this doesn't make them to powerful against cavalry or you made your own testing on the matter?
- I see you decided to go with higher numbers for carpentarii units - to make them last longer on the battlefield? Ah probably because their health is 1 point now right?

Brilliant work!

Now that you have finished your work on PI I, do you want to get acces to internal beta forum of PI II (M2TW Kingdoms) and cooperate there?

[Hister]

Am considering to apply these for extra flavor:

Hoplitai: mount_effect horse +6, chariot +4
Hoplites: mount_effect horse +6, chariot +3
Clipeati: mount_effect horse +5, chariot +3
Lanceari: mount_effect horse +4, chariot +2
Levy Lanceari: mount_effect horse +3, chariot +1
2H axe: mount_effect horse +2
Ferentarii: ?
Funditores: ?
Sagitarii: ?


*? Have to make a test and see how +6 for ferentarii units copes out.

Is it okey if we don't give any mount effect for phalangitai? I suppose they cope well without it right?


Since we have also cavalry that uses light axe and long sword I was wondering how much charge mod shall we give to those two weapons when used by cavalry? Did you have the same chrge mod in mind as if on foot for them or you missed those two peculiarities out? I made a proposition in red but dunno if it makes sense in comparison to curved sword. Need advice. In blue color preposition for 2H axe against cavalry.

- WEAPON ATTACK MOD, CHARGE MOD / DELAY MOD ; OTHER
- 2H axe: 20,x2 / 30 ; AP; horse +2
- light axe: 18,x1 / 29 ; Cavalry: x1.2 CHARGE MOD
- long sword: 16,x1 / 27 ; Cavalry: x1.3 CHARGE MOD
- curved sword 14,x0.5 / 28 ; Cavalry: x1 CHARGE MOD

[Hister]

Previous post updated.

[Aper]

A possible problem is indeed that some lancearii, getting a overall +4 vs. horse, have their javelins overpowered against cavalry: however, no solution is without drawback... But I don't think this bonus will unbalance the system, honestly.

About Carpentarii, I simply gave them 2 men per chariot: I did something wrong? The 1 HP is because I didn't understand why should they have 2... if necessary, cancel my changes!

I didn't remember changing anything about mount_effect of ferentarii...

Phalangitai gets already the bonus from light_spear, so I think another bonus is unnecessary.

About charge values... dunno, my suggestion is TO KEEP THINGS AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE! Don't get mad with this iper-tuning, in the model the charge is linked to the attack, so axe gets naturally an higher charge value than longsword, and the same about longsword and curved... Don't stress yourself too much!! the process of iper-fine balancing should come with 1.X versions IMHO...

About M2TW... DON'T TEMPT ME!!! Seriously, I'd like it very much but honestly I can't spend all this time on videogames (that's what they are after all, even if historically accurate), I surely can give some suggestions and release mini-mini-mods, but a big work like that on RTW PI EDU is definitively out of my plans for the future... RL have SO MANY interesting things to do that I'd need 2 lives..

[Hister]

A possible problem is indeed that some lancearii, getting a overall +4 vs. horse, have their javelins overpowered against cavalry: however, no solution is without drawback... But I don't think this bonus will unbalance the system, honestly.

Okey.

About Carpentarii, I simply gave them 2 men per chariot: I did something wrong? The 1 HP is because I didn't understand why should they have 2... if necessary, cancel my changes!

Hmm, this is what you did for chariots:

soldier Carpentarii_Poeni, 12, 6, 1

This is how it was before:

soldier Carpentarii_Poeni, 6, 6, 1

Doesn't this mean there is twice as many chariots as before - I don't think it means 2 men per chariot. Dunno have to check o the battlefield.

Phalangitai gets already the bonus from light_spear, so I think another bonus is unnecessary.

Okey.

About charge values... dunno, my suggestion is TO KEEP THINGS AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE! Don't get mad with this iper-tuning, in the model the charge is linked to the attack, so axe gets naturally an higher charge value than longsword, and the same about longsword and curved... Don't stress yourself too much!! the process of iper-fine balancing should come with 1.X versions IMHO...

Hmm, but if I leave it as it is then horse riders with light axe and long sword won't have any additional charge bonus whereas those riders with curved sword have extra charge bonus. Not good I think.

About M2TW... DON'T TEMPT ME!!! Seriously, I'd like it very much but honestly I can't spend all this time on videogames (that's what they are after all, even if historically accurate), I surely can give some suggestions and release mini-mini-mods, but a big work like that on RTW PI EDU is definitively out of my plans for the future... RL have SO MANY interesting things to do that I'd need 2 lives..

Heh you are right for sure! Thought that you wanna work on your new edu model for kingdoms since you posted it

Tell me, I forgot, can leathality for weapons in M2TW be applied or not? Am asking 'cos I wanna convert this EDU straight to M2tW PI II to spare time.

[Hister]

I checked the chariot numbers - it's okey I suppose. I'm only concerned that they died instantly when charging into clipeati Veneti who currently don't even have any + chariot bonus!?

[Aper]

"Lethality" was indeed disabled in M2TW, this is the reason for my theorical "HP mod"

I checked the chariot numbers - it's okey I suppose. I'm only concerned that they died instantly when charging into clipeati Veneti who currently don't even have any + chariot bonus!?

Well, eventually should be easy to fix this problem giving them more primary HPs, like before my latest changes

[Hister]

Yes thanx.

[Hister]

Okey, some of you maybe know that Aper changed the EDU model so I had to reapply many of the stats that were already all done by me. I'm in the process of doing this. Today my girlfriend (living together with her) has to write an essey so I had about 4 hours of peace more or less (some interuptions from her didn't made me stop working). I thus managed to do many remaining things. I now have to tidy up the terrace, put a bamboo cover on the balustrade and also take care of all the plants there so I suppose for today this is going to be it - no more time for EDU. What I have left to do on the EDU in the next days is the following:

- have to apply proper stat_pri and stat_sec values to 30-40 units.

- apply proper mount_effect to all Aper's spear wielding units.

- apply proper attributes to all Aper's units.

- apply proper ground values from PI II EDU that I've made quite some time ago to all units. They represent the type of unit and also the cultural background so that for example units living in a more forested area fight better in woods etc. It will take me the most time of all the things I have yet to do.

And that is all - so as you see the work on the EDU for PI I is nearing it's completion. I'll do some campaign testing to see how the new edu performs and then release it for the public.

[Athenogoras]

I now have to tidy up the terrace, put a bamboo cover on the balustrade

Excellent thinking Hister. Building a fortification to protect you from the misses while nerding away on the EDU. Good thinking indeed.

[Hister]

Ha ha ha, that's a good one Athenogoras! I would indeed need a separate studio room where I would have the ability to work without frequent disturbances from my girly.

[Athenogoras]

I think I can speak for all mankind that we are eagerly awaiting your EDU.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hister with his EDU

and that the false EDU-god of Aper must be rejected

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

and the true faith restored once again

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Women worshipping Hister and his EDU-bling

PS Sorry for spamming the thread. I need to clean my apartment and am looking for ways to delay the inevitable.

[Hister]

He he, I'm already half trough my apartment work so you might want to clean your flat or I will send a lightning EDU bolt into your ***

[Aper]

That was great, Athenagoras!

[DaVinci]

'Cause of Atheno's intelligent humour and his superbe avartar, i hired him into the ChivTW team.

(j/k of course)

[Athenogoras]

'Cause of Atheno's intelligent humour and his superbe avartar, i hired him into the ChivTW team.

HaHaHa. Indeed my avatar owns you all. You may now kneel and kiss the ring.

And DV. That avatar does not look like something from daVincis hand. It looks like those Rorschachtests. Why not keep it simple(you know the man within the ring)