Real cavalry charges: Instant kills, or morale shock?

[Death Merchant]

I think i should add a few things that i think have been missed so far

Levies are at battle because they fear what will happen to them if they desert which would likely end in their land seized and death if caught so to break a levy i feel that you have to create a bigger fear to make them rout

so the fear if definetly a big issue

I often see police horses when going to big sports events (football, Rugby etc) and horses are quite unerving even when stood still, firstly there large 750kg is average and loud the police use them as a deterrant as people fear the horses, so when the animal is bearing down on you at 35mph ground shaking men shouting would cetainly be terrifying If a 750kg horse was charging at me and all i had was a wicker shield and a makeshift spear id run to the hills as fast as my feet could take me

but another missed issue is that horses will not run into a organised line of spears like a spear wall, even something as short as a bayonet they will stop and turn around so organised lines fend off horses that way by having organised lines of pikes to deter the horses

[dr_guerra]

Well, armour doesn't really affect the cavalry charge itself, while it protects the horse, it does slow it down. So the difference is negligible.

However, the kind of horse matters quite a bit. Is it a heavy horse? A smaller horse?

Andalusians are famous warhorses. Large, fast, powerful, good endurance. They are ideal for charging into the enemy lines.

An Arabian horse is smaller and much faster. Better suited for horse archers and skirmishers, or swift moving light cavalry.

[anaztazioch]

However, the kind of horse matters quite a bit. Is it a heavy horse? A smaller horse?

Dubt that you can put armor and a small horse and make it charge... so if it goes for armored horses it doesnt matter as all are "bigger" ones.

Well, armour doesn't really affect the cavalry charge itself, while it protects the horse, it does slow it down. So the difference is negligible.

Not necesarelly speed, but acceleration and manuverability. Onece it gets full speed its as fast or the speed isnt that much lower. Ofcourse if armor construction restricts horse movements, there is no way it can run fast.

[Aurion]

Suppose it depends to a point on what happens with all that force.

A couched lance-style attack will put that force behind the point of a lance, which while not being sharp can still do a little piercing if for no other reason than all of the power behind it. The big problem is that if the enemy stand, it'll be difficult to get deep formation breakup due to the fact than all that momentum is spent after one powerful rush and jab.

A "trample" charge, on the other hand, would be really, really, really bad to try and stop, even if you were towards the back, as they're gonna knock you back, and quite possibly knock you over. Then the formation collapses and all hell breaks loose, as the heavy cavalry might move on and leave some lighter follow-up troops to "mop up", as it were, or stop and beat you over the head and shoulders repeatedly with blunt objects.

Trample charges are more the war elephant's thing, but super-heavy horse could do it against most infantry (obviously not a pike wall, or super-heavy spears.)

[anaztazioch]

Stomp charge requires horse to rise up, by doing so it opens its belly - thats where spears come very handy. If an armor on horse were to protect horse from bottom attacks, it be too movement restricting to be put in a good use on battle field.

[Aurion]

Stomp charge requires horse to rise up, by doing so it opens its belly - thats where spears come very handy. If an armor on horse were to protect horse from bottom attacks, it be too movement restricting to be put in a good use on battle field.

Not a stomp, a trample.

As in, go straight through the enemy formation without stopping and leave support troops to hack up whatever is left of what was previously the defensive line

[anaztazioch]

Not a stomp, a trample.

As in, go straight through the enemy formation without stopping and leave support troops to hack up whatever is left of what was previously the defensive line

1500+ pounds running at atleast 20mph wont come to a stop from a lance. The lance has its construction and holding MADE to dont stop the charge at 1st hit.
As for pircing damage, axe doeas as much "pircing" damage type as a lance. Lane is trhin not to pirce armor, but to be lighter in order to be held in 1 hand.

[Lupu]

No, it is longer, and can be couhed, for more power.
An axe will reflect back, a couched lance will not, but with too heavy rsistance it could break the chargers arm :hmmm:

[anaztazioch]

lance with shard tip does more harm to cavalry than good. Lance does not provide enough impact to break formation, gets stuck in targetted flash, is much harder to controll it (easier to dismount rider).

Thats what i was talking about. A Lance vs breast plate = cracked/pirced plate/broken ribs. Axe vs breast plate = cracked/pirced plate/broken ribs (but human does not have nor strength no space for swing to crack it. Plate was made to defend against sword hits and axes. Leather, chain, scale and propabilly lemmar doesnt give good protection vs bludging.

[frontier-auxilia]

lance aren't piecing, its more direct penetration that goes straight in. Just like a bullet. Also a horse don't need to be train to raise up and stomp someone in the middle of a charge to finish off fallen foes. All it needs to do is simply run over the guy in the middle of a charge and its over for them since the hooves will simply crush their bodies into a unrecogniseable mess.

[anaztazioch]

lance aren't piecing, its more direct penetration that goes straight in. Just like a bullet. Also a horse don't need to be train to raise up and stomp someone in the middle of a charge to finish off fallen foes. All it needs to do is simply run over the guy in the middle of a charge and its over for them since the hooves will simply crush their bodies into a unrecogniseable mess.

Exacly.

Lance cannot break chargers arm. Tou dont just hold it, you hit with it. IF the target will not resist the hit, rider will take no harm. But you use lance against a wall that willresist the charge, than yes, it will hurt.

[Aurion]

Uh, if it can stab into the body of the person who gets hit by it, it pierces/stabs.

ANYTHING will pierce into a person with enough force behind it.

I'd like to point out that I'm talking about a battle, not some lame joust, and in a battle, lance-charging cavalry are rather different from tramplers.

And uhh, lances can break the arm of the person wielding it, all that has to happen is that the shock of the impact is more than the bones of the person using it can handle.

Newton's laws of physics: For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction.

If they impact a solid object at an angle especially, they can easily wrench the arm of the person using them, resulting in a dislocation, which often hurts worse than a break, lemme tell you.

[anaztazioch]

Newton's laws of physics: For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction.

The action: Putting force to hit target.
Reaction: Impact on target made by the hit.

The strength of hit is equal to reaction made on target, not oposite.



But if: You swing a swor at some one else that swing a sword, and you swords clashes.

Action: force form one sword meets force from other sword.
Reaction: If one sword has more power, the reaction is impact on weaker swod. If forces are equal, forces reflect back to swords.
But in this example, physics are much more complicated.

[Lupu]

Lamellar, leather, and sclae gives protection against dirct thrust, and piercing, only cahinmail gives minimal protection agaisnt it.

[Glorfindel]

i think that horsemen do moral shock more than instant kills, but there are some instant kills nonetheless

[Samariten]

Shock is a large part involved when charging upon the enemy. For those who dont run away when about hundred 750 kilo horses with rider is hitting you its very likely that you get stressed and shocked cause of the large impact. After impact axes or swords above you starts swinging and chopping around you perhaps its likely you are focusing to get the rider instead of crippling the horse and thats why it was so effective to use it especially under the medieval age until the pikeman came. I think we forget that the soldiers are still humans that get stressed and scared even if you had a soldiers training.

Umm im not sure now what im trying to say (abit confused today) but i think that morale shock rather then instant kills is the recipe for todays supper.