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Thread: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

  1. #1
    Caesar Clivus's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    What is it?
    This mod revises the vanilla unit roster for Novgorod to provide some more appropriate units and some (hopefully) more historically accurate units.

    Why has this been made?
    The roster for the Russian faction in Vanilla M2TW was fine for a generic Russian faction. But since this faction has been changed to the Republic of Novgorod in Stainless Steel, not all units in the roster are appropriate. For example:
    • Tsar's Guard: While Novgorod did have heavy cavalry, they never had a Tsar.
    • Cossack units: Cossacks originate from southern Russia and the Ukraine, rather than northern russia where Novgorod is situated.
    Such units have either been replaced by something more appropriate, or simply renamed.


    How will these changes affect faction balance?
    Hopefully minimally. The changes to the unit roster will make Novgorod more infantry heavy, which will make how the faction is played a little different. The units that have been added to the roster will of course need to be tested to make sure they don't overpower Novgorod.

    When will it be available?
    A version will be released for play testing once it has been integrated into SS 6.1

    Unit Preview (not complete)

    Name: Sulitsi Cavalry
    Role: Javelin Cavalry
    Replaces: Boyar Sons

    Novgorod did employ cavalry armed with javelins (or sulitsi), but they came from the Baltic tribes within the borders of the Republic. On their backs they carry a dijed: a quiver for their javelins.





    Name: Boyars
    Role: Cavalry

    Boyars are the nobles of Novgorod, equivalent to the Feudal Knights of western Europe.





    Name: Dismounted Boyars
    Role: Armoured Infantry
    Replaces: Dismounted Boyar Sons

    Equivalent to Dismounted Feudal Knights. Having this unit armed with swords rather than the axes of the Boyar Sons has deprived Novgorod of a source of armour piercing infantry. To make up for this, the next unit was added in.



    Name: Peasant Crossbowmen
    Role: Armour piercing archers.

    The same unit as western factions get. Many crossbow heads have been found in and around Novgorod. The current roster does not reflect the historical usage of the crossbow in the area.



    Name: Luchniki.
    Role: Archers
    Replaces: Dismounted Dvor.

    Dvor is a later term more associated with Muscovite Russia rather than the time period covered in SS. For this reason, Dvor have been replaced with Luchniki (meaning Archers).



    Name: Mounted Luchniki
    Role: Armoured Missile Cavalry
    Replaces: Dvor Cavalry.

    Contact and conflict with steppe peoples led the Russians to adopt mounted archers. While well equipped, they are not as skilled as they're steppe counterparts and cannot use shooting circle tactics. Alexander Nevskii made good use of mounted archers at the battle of Lake Peipus in 1242.



    Name: Novgorod Home Guard
    Role: Heavy Spearmen.

    The Novgorod Home Guard consisted of the richer citizens of Novgorod who, when drawn up into service, could afford better armour and weapons than most. Historically the Home Guard would only be drawn upon when Novgorod itself was directly threatened.




    Credits

    Thanks to DisgruntledGoat and Kalos for their kind permission for me to make some minor modifications to their excellent unit skins.

    Also, thanks to Scolot for providing some excellent artwork.
    Last edited by Caesar Clivus; May 04, 2008 at 04:13 AM. Reason: Updated unit changes

    BftB2 UPDATED 22nd DECEMBER. Member of the Complete Byzantine Unit Roster team

  2. #2
    Domesticus
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    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    I like it, really good work.
    One suggestion,I don't think the heavy Kipchaq Cavalry should have a armored horse, they are a fast skirmishing unit right?

  3. #3

    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    Wow nice units. If you released a mod after 6.0 is released I'd use it.

  4. #4
    Caesar Clivus's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    Thanks guys

    Quote Originally Posted by fieldmarshal View Post
    I like it, really good work.
    One suggestion,I don't think the heavy Kipchaq Cavalry should have a armored horse, they are a fast skirmishing unit right?
    Well at the moment I have them just sitting on the same mount that the Dvor Cavalry had (as you can see by the rather jarringly blue saddles). The illustration I have shows both the lighter armoured Kipchaq warriors on unarmoured horses, as well as a heavier armoured warrior (still armed with a bow) on an armoured horse like those in the game.

    BftB2 UPDATED 22nd DECEMBER. Member of the Complete Byzantine Unit Roster team

  5. #5
    Domesticus
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    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    Do the Sulitsi Cavalry have new models? i don't remember seeing a unit like that in SS.

  6. #6
    Fenix_120's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    I don't really get why Boyar sons were removed and Boyars themselves added in but they look cool none the less.


    Will Novengrod get an infantry boost to make them more on par with Kiev?

  7. #7
    Caesar Clivus's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by fieldmarshal View Post
    Do the Sulitsi Cavalry have new models? i don't remember seeing a unit like that in SS.
    The model itself is not new. The javelin quiver on their back is my own creation.

    I don't really get why Boyar sons were removed and Boyars themselves added in but they look cool none the less.
    Boyar Sons haven't been removed, they've been replaced by Sulitsi Cavalry. The change was made because fighting with javelins from horseback was more a trait of the Baltic tribes in the area, rather than the sons of the nobility. Boyars were added in because historically Boyars did fight in armies in Russia at this time. At the battle of Kulikovo Field in 1380, several hundred Boyars lost their lives.


    Will Novengrod get an infantry boost to make them more on par with Kiev?
    They will get a bit of a boost with Dismounted Boyars, but nothing dramatic.

    BftB2 UPDATED 22nd DECEMBER. Member of the Complete Byzantine Unit Roster team

  8. #8
    Domesticus
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    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar Clivus View Post
    The model itself is not new. The javelin quiver on their back is my own creation.
    I looked at that and went, hmmmm:hmmm: I don't remember any unit with a javelin quiver. It looks awesome by the way, all javelin units should have a quiver just like for arrows.

  9. #9
    strife1013's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    It looks awesome!


  10. #10

    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    I like the idea to improve Novgorod a lot and most of the units looks fine to me. I have though one major note – peasant crossbowmen are not suitable for Novgorod. First of all peasants in Russia were not called to arms (though there might be some exceptions). Secondary the exceptional usage of crossbow in Russia territory by Novgorod was a consequence of its merchant character and Hanza presence, so this weapon is suitable for militia (which was numerous in Novgorod), not peasants. Also even if (but I still claim it wasn't practised in Novgorod) peasants fought in Russia, they would be rather armed with bows, which was far more common weapon then crossbow in that region.
    Last edited by Silesian_Noble; April 16, 2008 at 01:46 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    2Caesar Clivus
    Hi!
    Novgorod have never had "Heavy Kipchaq Cavalry", even as allies.
    It was not usual that Novgorod had mercenaries from Steppe peoples. Maybe Balts, Chudins, Scandinavians, but not nomads.
    BTW, if you'd like I can provide you with some pics of russian reconstructors.

    Привет. У Новгородского княжества на службе никогда не было кочевников. Если говорить о наемниках, то могли быть балты, чудины, скандинавы, но кочевники - никогда.
    Если есть желание, могу подбросить несколько иллюстраций от отечественных реконструкторов (Дзысь).

  12. #12
    Bacon!'s Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    very nice, i was never much of a Novgorod fan but im sure this will give them a little extra appeal, well for me at least
    Soylent Green is people!!!

  13. #13
    Laconian's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    Good work looks good.

  14. #14
    Caesar Clivus's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian_Noble View Post
    I like the idea to improve Novgorod a lot and most of the units looks fine to me. I have though one major note – peasant crossbowmen are not suitable for Novgorod. First of all peasants in Russia were not called to arms (though there might be some exceptions). Secondary the exceptional usage of crossbow in Russia territory by Novgorod was a consequence of its merchant character and Hanza presence, so this weapon is suitable for militia (which was numerous in Novgorod), not peasants. Also even if (but I still claim it wasn't practised in Novgorod) peasants fought in Russia, they would be rather armed with bows, which was far more common weapon then crossbow in that region.
    Thanks for the feedback. In regards to armed peasants, the information I have says that tribal levies called Voi fought on foot, although only in emergencies. After the 13th century though, armed peasant use died out...which kind of matches what happens in the game because by that time there is a greater variety and much better quality troops available to choose from. I might consider reducing the recruitment rates for the peasant units after a certain date to reflect this. Besides, peasant units in M2TW are basically militia units but built in castles .

    In regards to crossbow usage, I think there is enough archaeological evidence to assume that there was a greater usage of crossbows in Novgorod. And I agree that it would have been from it's contact with the west, which is one thing I want to try to convey: the fact that Novgorod sat in the middle of the west and the east and was influenced by both. In a game that is all about the military, this is a bit hard to convey sufficiently.


    2Caesar Clivus
    Hi! :original:
    Novgorod have never had "Heavy Kipchaq Cavalry", even as allies.
    It was not usual that Novgorod had mercenaries from Steppe peoples. Maybe Balts, Chudins, Scandinavians, but not nomads.
    BTW, if you'd like I can provide you with some pics of russian reconstructors.

    Any info would be more than welcome
    Last edited by Caesar Clivus; April 16, 2008 at 02:39 AM.

    BftB2 UPDATED 22nd DECEMBER. Member of the Complete Byzantine Unit Roster team

  15. #15
    DeaDBolT's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    Couldn't some patch for SS 6.0 be made so that all Javelin units get a quiver for their javelins, instead of them magically appearing out of thin air like it is now. Maybe this would be an idea to propose to KK or something. Although it probably wont go into 6.0 anymore

  16. #16
    Caesar Clivus's Avatar SS Forum Moderator
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    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by DeaDBolT View Post
    Couldn't some patch for SS 6.0 be made so that all Javelin units get a quiver for their javelins, instead of them magically appearing out of thin air like it is now. Maybe this would be an idea to propose to KK or something. Although it probably wont go into 6.0 anymore
    Well that's something I could be willing to do post-6.0 release

    BftB2 UPDATED 22nd DECEMBER. Member of the Complete Byzantine Unit Roster team

  17. #17
    y2day's Avatar TWC STORE NOW OPEN!
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    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    Great work Caesar Clivus!
    I will rep you when i can.




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  18. #18
    TheColdTruth's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    Nice work. Looks good and I like the quiver for their javelins.

    +rep FOR YOU!



  19. #19

    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Scolot View Post
    2Caesar Clivus
    Hi!
    Novgorod have never had "Heavy Kipchaq Cavalry", even as allies.
    It was not usual that Novgorod had mercenaries from Steppe peoples. Maybe Balts, Chudins, Scandinavians, but not nomads.
    BTW, if you'd like I can provide you with some pics of russian reconstructors.

    Привет. У Новгородского княжества на службе никогда не было кочевников. Если говорить о наемниках, то могли быть балты, чудины, скандинавы, но кочевники - никогда.
    Если есть желание, могу подбросить несколько иллюстраций от отечественных реконструкторов (Дзысь).
    Can you post some pics?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Preview: Revised Novgorod Roster Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by gewehr36 View Post
    Can you post some pics?
    See here:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...3&postcount=20 ('Chudskoe ozero' battle, 1242 AD)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...1&postcount=32
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...4&postcount=48

    I also have another pics. But first I promised to PM them to Caesar Clivus.

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