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Thread: Why protest against tyranny?

  1. #101
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    mishkin,

    Depends on what a democracy actually is? Don't many countries that are communist carry that name and as for us who think they are the most democratic look at America now governed by one of the most corrupt families on the planet? You know that politiics is one of the dirtiest games driven by men and women quite prepared to lie and cheat their way into power and we here in the West have an abundance of them. As for free speach we now see how much that is becoming impossible as it is now impossible to differenciate between a man and a woman. This world is heading in the direction that God's Word says it will and the good news is that one day it will all change when Jesus comes back to settle the score.

  2. #102
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    I find this conversation impossible where I ask you very simple questions and instead of answering you talk about vague things or about the return of Jesus Christ. It should be normal for anyone to simply say "Yes, I condemn tyranny" without having to reflect on the fact that there will always be tyrants or that democracy is far from perfect. Seriously, I don't understand your behavior here. You are surrounded by human beings with whom you must empathize, but I have the impression that you write from an ivory tower, that your kingdom is not of this world. Good luck on the next one, I want you to know that you have achieved absolutely nothing on this one with that psychopathic, alien speech. Thinking about it, the image you give of your god is that of an alien totally indifferent to this world.

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    mishkin,

    If you really think that I enjoy what is going on in the world then you must be nuts. I don't need to protest because if I had to I would never be off the streets with a placard in my hands. I'm an invalid, no ivory tower, living on a pension and a small disability allowance and boy, it is hard going. What holds me together is knowing that one day I won't be an invalid anymore being with my God, Saviour and Comforter in that new place He brings into being.

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Nothing you say prevents you from showing empathy here for people suffering tyranny or unfair situations.

    Last try: Would your god disapprove of you condemning (for example) the invasion of Ukraine? that you support raising the pay of nurses in UK?
    Last edited by mishkin; December 15, 2022 at 03:21 AM.

  5. #105
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    mishkin,

    The church I attend has opened its doors to Ukranian people both at its building but also some homes and I can't remember when we didn't pray for that people. As for the nurses, Don't you recognise that whenever a person of any employment gets a wage increase its the ordinary bloke in the street that has to pay for it through rising prices or taxes. When costs go up the man in the street is the one who bears the burden every time and I'd wager that not one wouldn't love to earn £33.000 plus a year as most don't.

  6. #106
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    basics, find jesus.

  7. #107
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    basics, find jesus.
    mishkin,

    Sorry for being so dim but I don't get the gist of what you mean by the above.

  8. #108
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    basics, find jesus.
    An economist would do.

    Basics seems to be trying to explain inflationary cycles. Nurses demand more pay, taxes go up to cover it, businesses charge more to cover taxes, customers demand higher wages to cover higher costs... blah blah. But Basics forgot the or

    To pay nurses more, taxes must be increased, or the allocation of existing taxes must be altered to allow more pay for nurses. E.g. We could spend less on weapons, so there is more to pay nurses with.

    This isn't a question of common folk having to foot the burden of increased healthcare wage spending, it is a question of what common folk want to prioritise with spending. Basics could just accept a smaller military and have better nurses, without any change to the tax burden.

    But I don't know if Basics is interested in legitimate debate on these topics. I think basics is an insincere debater who is actually here to proselytise. I don't know if it breaches our terms, but it is certainly not debate in good faith.
    Last edited by antaeus; December 17, 2022 at 04:16 PM.
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  9. #109

    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    But I don't know if Basics is interested in legitimate debate on these topics. I think basics is an insincere debater who is actually here to proselytise. I don't know if it breaches our terms, but it is certainly not debate in good faith.
    Everyone is here to "proselytize" (= "convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.")
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  10. #110
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    An economist would do.

    Basics seems to be trying to explain inflationary cycles. Nurses demand more pay, taxes go up to cover it, businesses charge more to cover taxes, customers demand higher wages to cover higher costs... blah blah. But Basics forgot the or

    To pay nurses more, taxes must be increased, or the allocation of existing taxes must be altered to allow more pay for nurses. E.g. We could spend less on weapons, so there is more to pay nurses with.

    This isn't a question of common folk having to foot the burden of increased healthcare wage spending, it is a question of what common folk want to prioritise with spending. Basics could just accept a smaller military and have better nurses, without any change to the tax burden.

    But I don't know if Basics is interested in legitimate debate on these topics. I think basics is an insincere debater who is actually here to proselytise. I don't know if it breaches our terms, but it is certainly not debate in good faith.
    antaeus,

    So, what is legitimate debate if one person is not allowed to express his or her feelings freely and without prejudice as I am doing? Getting back to the cost of living whether nurses or anyone else a country can only pay out what it can afford unless it raises taxes so we have to prioritize in certain essentials and safety and health are the most important as far as I am concerned. As a visitor to a hospital and seeing nurses sitting in groups blethering each time I go, I wonder why they need more money or when on the streets of my town and only see a policeman when he or she is going into a shop to get grub I wonder why they need more money? Ask your neighbour when was the last time he or she actually got to see a doctor face to face and consider why they are paid so much? Oh I could go on and on but as you probably are not in need of any of the above then it won't matter at all.

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    delete/sorry
    Last edited by mishkin; December 18, 2022 at 05:08 AM. Reason: i dont even care

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    nishkin,

    Why did you delete the above?

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    basics,

    Why do you think I deleted the post?

    Because it seems ridiculous to argue with you. that's why.

    And do you want to discuss this? Do you want me to explain why it seems ridiculous to argue with you? Do you think that is the purpose of this thread? If you want something more in this regard, my profile is open to answer your questions.
    Last edited by mishkin; December 19, 2022 at 02:57 AM.

  14. #114
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Everyone is here to "proselytize" (= "convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.")
    There is a difference between debating points raised, and ignoring them at all costs. That difference is the 'good faith' part of the debate.
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  15. #115
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    antaeus,

    So, what is legitimate debate if one person is not allowed to express his or her feelings freely and without prejudice as I am doing? Getting back to the cost of living whether nurses or anyone else a country can only pay out what it can afford unless it raises taxes so we have to prioritize in certain essentials and safety and health are the most important as far as I am concerned. As a visitor to a hospital and seeing nurses sitting in groups blethering each time I go, I wonder why they need more money or when on the streets of my town and only see a policeman when he or she is going into a shop to get grub I wonder why they need more money? Ask your neighbour when was the last time he or she actually got to see a doctor face to face and consider why they are paid so much? Oh I could go on and on but as you probably are not in need of any of the above then it won't matter at all.
    I worked all my life walked up hill both ways in the snow to do my job bare foot... and occasional I walk arounf and nurses talking at work or cops getting lunch so they are clearly just publicly employed layabouts? That's not an argument.

    Ask your neighbour when was the last time he or she actually got to see a doctor face to face and consider why they are paid so much?
    Because they are technical experts in the field of keeping you alive and likely invested a lot of their life in training to do so.

    My wife is a geneticist you would probably say the same of her. Why is she paid so much on any given day she looks to just be sitting at a couple computers surrounded by white boards and piles of paper in a comfortable office with a door and flexible work schedule etc. She was 30 when she got her PhD and 5 more years of post doc work till she was an Assistant professor. She specializes in fairly rare applications of statistics to to Genetics and genetic manipulation. Mind until she bagged a professor post she was not making bank ( and even that was research track so she was on a tread mill of self funding) so yes having succeed in her field she does now make more than average money - would you expect otherwise? Note in this the post doc period is essentially underpaid enforced by system labor same a MDs get overworked like crazy as doctors in training or minty fresh. when you out on a table do really begrudge say the surgeon who is an expert at taking a hammer a chisel to your spine and setting to right w/o paralyzing you a good check?

    In England as far as I can tell Nursing is 2 to a 4 degree track (2 years seems associated with an apprenticeship period) so not exactly burger flipping.

    I don't particularity like cops. But everyone gets to eat lunch and or talk at work and in general their work is going to be one with lulls. In fact I can think of a lot of jobs where a lot people who are experts looks to be doing nothing because their job is wait about for something to break to need fixed . A lot of what beat cops do is just me there until something goes wrong.
    Last edited by conon394; December 20, 2022 at 07:26 AM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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  16. #116
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Heaven forbid those nurses have a break in their 12 hour shift... or that police officers actually buy lunch?
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  17. #117
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    conon394,

    From what you say I gather that you got the best end of the deal with your dear wife.

    antaeus,

    I have a friend who has spent the last few days in hospital with severe pneumonia his body crumpled with a disease I don't know the name of yet the only thing that has kept him going for so long is that he had snake venom injected into him over a period of many years to keep him alive. Ask him about nurses and doctors and all one can understand from his garbled speech is that they are useless. His son in law sleeps in his room with him doing such things as feeding him, wiping him and washing him just as I did when I visited concerning feeding. He now has oxygen equipment installed in his house because he was sent home last week and his family have been told not to bring him back to hospital should his condition get any worse. Oh there's a lot more but time is beating me to tell more. Doctors and nurses are there for their patient's benefit not the other way round.

  18. #118
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    antaeus,

    I have a friend who has spent the last few days in hospital with severe pneumonia his body crumpled with a disease I don't know the name of yet the only thing that has kept him going for so long is that he had snake venom injected into him over a period of many years to keep him alive. Ask him about nurses and doctors and all one can understand from his garbled speech is that they are useless. His son in law sleeps in his room with him doing such things as feeding him, wiping him and washing him just as I did when I visited concerning feeding. He now has oxygen equipment installed in his house because he was sent home last week and his family have been told not to bring him back to hospital should his condition get any worse. Oh there's a lot more but time is beating me to tell more. Doctors and nurses are there for their patient's benefit not the other way round.
    Anecdotes and individual stories are meaningless. For this view to have weight, it must be shown to be representative.

    You have a friend who has had a bad experience - how does this bad experience represent a wider problem? How do we know it represents a wider problem? What evidence is there that this is a wider problem?

    Then once you have established that this one single case you have mentioned is representative of a wider problem, you can then move on to showing that the problem has been caused by the reasons you have posited further up the page - through excessive cost in the health care system, or through staff who are wasteful with their time, or what ever it was.

    Once you have illustrated these things with reasoned argument, there will be something of substance to debate. Until then you have presented an anecdote, and nothing can be judged by single anecdotes.
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  19. #119
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    From what you say I gather that you got the best end of the deal with your dear wife.
    That was dodging my point is she like MD who are surgeons has invested a fair chunk of life into one profession. Often under grueling conditions and comparatively low pay. In the they get rewarded but have also shut doors to a lot of other possible careers and opportunities. Thus the higher pay in general. The same could said said of why can earn so much in three on the slime line in Alaska in three months. Although in that case the reward is for long hours doing a really difficult and potentially risky job and also getting good at it quick or being a seasonal regular. By all accounts you don't get long to not become a good gut puller or belly slitter they have more applicants than they need.

    To your story... antaeus has already addressed the sample size n with n-1 issue. But more specifically any story about medical is likely to be very emotionally charged particular one involving a friend or family member.

    A few thoughts snake venom is on quick review an experimental treatment and typically for sever chronic illness. So I am not sure what you beef with doctors is.

    "Doctors and nurses are there for their patient's benefit not the other way round."

    This is a potential truism. But its also true of waiters, IT repair guys, tailors. The question than is are sufficient amounts of them to provided good service and is the remuneration sufficient to both attract and retain those who have the best aptitude and desire for the job? Even the best most caring set of nurses tasked with proving day to day care for incapacitated people on their ward with effectively fail if the are presented with too many people to care for, and over insufficient opportunity for time off or sick time of flexible scheduling and can see other less stressful job opportunities or ones with better pay.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #120
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    antaeus,

    Here's another story that is about my own experience. Once when in hospital I had a problem with my feet, my toenails needing trimmed, so I asked one nurse if she would cut them. Her reply was that she would not as it was not part of her job. After appealing to several others one auxiliary said she would and did it to my relief. I wonder what Florence Nightingale would have said to those others were she alive?

    Then there was the occasion when I was rushed to hospital with sever Diarrhoea and when I got there the doctor said he was sending me home without even checking me. Minutes after that I had another attack all down my legs covering my trousers, socks and shoes in crap. A passing nurse pulled me into a side room and removed my stained garments, replacing them with top and surgical trousers, angry at the doctor, and that's how the ambulance took me home. Once there my own doctor came round immediately to see me and was furious at this ever happening, so much so that another ambulance came and took me back in where I spent a whole week under supervision with no accounting for why this came upon me.

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