David Hume's criteria for accepting stories of miracles applied to religious miracles

[conon394]

antaeus,

When God made Adam and Eve they belonged to Him and were subjected to a certain rule so otherwise they were free to do as God told them. Nonetheless being restricted by that one rule it shows that what will they had was not free. When the fall came and the curse of sin was placed on their heads from that moment they were bound to sin, still not free and that has been the state of mankind ever since. The only Person Who can save anyone from their sin is Jesus Christ.

Just sort of making stuff up that's not in the text.

Nonetheless being restricted by that one rule it shows that what will they had was not free

The text says otherwise. If they clearly had the free will to disobey a direct order. A law or stricture to not do this or that is pointless unless you have the capacity to this or that. If they were just god's sock puppets he would not have needed to a rule. Via the text they were made good and with the capacity to choose sin. That means the potential for sin existed at the start. God never punished the world (at least at this point) the text only applied specific punishment to the three individuals involved in the sin for their sin. Augustine's Manichaeism is well more or less made up by the man and inserted into Christianity.

[antaeus]

Just sort of making stuff up that's not in the text..

Isn't that how new religions form out of old ones?


As for basics, as per usual, didn't answer the question. Which was explicitly about whether octopuses have free will.

[basics]

antaeus,

All creation is bound in sin meaning that creatures now die as all else dies. Now, I don't know any octopuses personally but what I do know is that even that species dies, the result of Adam's fall from Grace.

[conon394]

antaeus,

All creation is bound in sin meaning that creatures now die as all else dies. Now, I don't know any octopuses personally but what I do know is that even that species dies, the result of Adam's fall from Grace.

There is absolutely no reason to suggest god punished all creation for Adam's act.

[antaeus]

There is absolutely no reason to suggest god punished all creation for Adam's act.

That's a pretty rough deal for golden kiwifruit, which didn't even exist at creation.

[conon394]

That's a pretty rough deal for golden kiwifruit, which didn't even exist at creation.

Well that that's the way the cookie crumbles under Augustine's Manichaeism. Once you hand your already capricious/carless god a vengeance streak that is not in the text everything is punished for reasons unknown. The Badger who was like Eve don't listen that a-hole he/she lies all the time or the trees that would one day produce the genetic basis for golden kiwi since unlike snakes they apparently could not talk in Eden so really can't possibly be guilty of anything.

[antaeus]

everything is punished for reasons unknown.

Ahhhh but temporal power.

Also the leading cause of making stuff up to create new religions out of old religions.

[basics]

Oh you can both criticise God all you want but one day you will have to explain yourself to Him just as everyone else will.

[antaeus]

Oh you can both criticise God all you want but one day you will have to explain yourself to Him just as everyone else will.

Neither of us criticised God. We criticise people's interpretations of God's intentions.

[conon394]

Oh you can both criticise God all you want but one day you will have to explain yourself to Him just as everyone else will.

Even assuming you right in general broadly Christianity correct, the number of variants of said understanding of the faith has now and past been quite a bit more than your particular views. You should not be too confident you will not be doing some explaining.

[basics]

conon394,

They are not my particular views rather the experiences that I went through that brought me not only to know Jesus Christ as my Saviour and Lord but that I was given to see Him on the cross as He gave up His life for me. So, at the cross I was Judged and am now on that narrow path that few ever get to get on. Once like you I was blind but now I see thanks to Him that died for me and my sin.

[PointOfViewGun]

conon394,

They are not my particular views rather the experiences that I went through that brought me not only to know Jesus Christ as my Saviour and Lord but that I was given to see Him on the cross as He gave up His life for me. So, at the cross I was Judged and am now on that narrow path that few ever get to get on. Once like you I was blind but now I see thanks to Him that died for me and my sin.

Nope. They are what you understand. Not what is. Given that you had to alter what even the Bible says before they're not particularly grounded views.

[conon394]

conon394,

They are not my particular views rather the experiences that I went through that brought me not only to know Jesus Christ as my Saviour and Lord but that I was given to see Him on the cross as He gave up His life for me. So, at the cross I was Judged and am now on that narrow path that few ever get to get on. Once like you I was blind but now I see thanks to Him that died for me and my sin.

Your personal revelation is of course yours and I pass no judgment on it. I do however question the Evangelical Calvinist view you generally seem to take about Christianity. I do feel it based on poor translation, forced interpretations and finding stuff in the texts that simply is not there.

[antaeus]

Nope. They are what you understand. Not what is. Given that you had to alter what even the Bible says before they're not particularly grounded views.

Not necessarily true. basics speaks of personal revelation and direct interaction with the divine. Plenty of new religions have been started by those whom have had similar revelations. Who are we to say that basics isn't the recipient of an updated message, as Mohammed, Joseph Smith, David Koresh and Jesus claimed before him.

I don't question basic's experiences, but I get frustrated when our conversations are ignored or sidestepped. And that is a different issue.

[basics]

Your personal revelation is of course yours and I pass no judgment on it. I do however question the Evangelical Calvinist view you generally seem to take about Christianity. I do feel it based on poor translation, forced interpretations and finding stuff in the texts that simply is not there.

conon394,

As I have said before tne Bible is the Gospel that is the key to salvation, why? Because it is the Power of our Creator to alter man's thinking about Him meaning that through it the Holy Spirit opens the mind, the heart and the conscience of men to the knowledge that Jesus Christ came into this world as a man to die on a cross in their place for the sins they have and will commit. For some forty odd years I was so dead in my sin until that evening when God put me on my knees to change my life that only now do I see what I couldn't before. So please tell me what stuff it is that you cannot see yet I can?

[basics]

antaeus,

If you feel sidestepped or ignored please accept my apologies as there was no intent other than time on my part. Jesus Christ is our Creator which Mohammed, Koresh and Smith are not so how can you put them in the same category and as for the so-called revelations they had my belief is that they came from the one who sent Adam and Eve to destruction.

[antaeus]

antaeus,

If you feel sidestepped or ignored please accept my apologies as there was no intent other than time on my part. Jesus Christ is our Creator which Mohammed, Koresh and Smith are not so how can you put them in the same category and as for the so-called revelations they had my belief is that they came from the one who sent Adam and Eve to destruction.

Mohammed claimed that Jesus was a prophet rather than the creator. How do you know he was wrong?

[conon394]

conon394,

As I have said before tne Bible is the Gospel that is the key to salvation, why? Because it is the Power of our Creator to alter man's thinking about Him meaning that through it the Holy Spirit opens the mind, the heart and the conscience of men to the knowledge that Jesus Christ came into this world as a man to die on a cross in their place for the sins they have and will commit. For some forty odd years I was so dead in my sin until that evening when God put me on my knees to change my life that only now do I see what I couldn't before. So please tell me what stuff it is that you cannot see yet I can?

Again a statement of personal faith and personal revelation - I have never doubted that.

So please tell me what stuff it is that you cannot see yet I can?

Not sure how mean that. If you mean I have no experience like your own and not raised in what I assume was a background Calvinist Tradition I have thus no particular reason to ascribe 'word of god' to the Bible in the way you do. Again with that I also confronted by people other faiths who ascribe equally life affirming and altering experiences with their own faith - ones you would deem not true. So rationally I am left have no particular reason to see yours a particularly true path.

[antaeus]

Again with that I also confronted by people other faiths who ascribe equally life affirming and altering experiences with their own faith - ones you would deem not true.

This is usually the case. Deities speak to individuals through prophesy. Individuals demand trust of the rest of the populace: "I speak with God, you must do as I say or you'll be damned" To me this indicates an attempt to legitimise claims to temporal power by individuals. It is inherently suspicious.

If God, or gods wanted the populace to follow their instruction, they wouldn't give their rules to a lone man on a hill. They would give their rules to the populace, in the open. God or gods standing there with tablets in hand. It is the secret and personal nature of prophesy that immediately calls into question the motivations of the individuals whom experience it.

There is no or ambiguous evidence, and that's the point. A dictator does the same thing, only with guns: "Only I can be trusted to lead you through this crisis, only me"

[conon394]

Mohammed claimed that Jesus was a prophet rather than the creator. How do you know he was wrong?

Bet reply says he and Joseph Smith are just wrong because well because.