Native Language sound project for MTW II

[Aneirin]

Hello everyone,

this might be interesting for Tsardoms, as well

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...6#post15166346

Regards,
Aneirin

[Aneirin]

Good evening, gents

I'd like to call attention to our native language project here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...nguage-project

We are currently in need of native Turkish speakers to create the audio content to bring the Ottoman Empire to live.
Also we are looking for native Hungarian speakers.

Several members have already signed up, but the more the merrier

Many thank's,
Aneirin
Head of Italian Wars Modding Team

[Julio85]

What about Ragusa? What language do they speak at that time?

(not in Formal events, but what the population usually speak)

[thekingsmen]

What about Ragusa? What language do they speak at that time?

(not in Formal events, but what the population usually speak)

most are poliglots and they use italian for trade but croatian at home

[Julio85]

Italian at that time wasn't a language but a sum of dialects...probably venetian Italian was most used since Ragusa were a Venetian colony.

[thekingsmen]

Italian at that time wasn't a language but a sum of dialects...probably venetian Italian was most used since Ragusa were a Venetian colony.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ragusa

official latin and later italian but they actualy spoke dalmatian-croatian

[Darios]

I would assume that at the time Ragusa had an upper class that spoke Dalmatian, but was already being eclipsed by an increasingly large populace that spoke only Croatian.

[thekingsmen]

no dude this dalmatian here does not mean that romanic dalmatian!!

officialy it vas latin then italian but the nobility and the citizen spoke croatian/dalmatian

we called ourself paralel croats and dalmatians cuz to us it is the same thing

all the literature from ragusa from the 14 century at least vas firstly writen in croatian
as far as i know

[Aneirin]

Currently we have them speak Italian

Anyhow, do you know of anyone capable speaking Hungarian or Arabic?

[kanteljic]

I am studying a book called "Dubrovnik: A History", by British historian (called "the author of a brilliant book on the history of Dubrovnik" by HRT, the Croatian public Television Company, and one of the consultants of the series about Dubrovnik).

The subject of Ragusan language is a complex one, which always generates controversy here. I don't care about nationalist claims that might com up. I will just share a few quotes from the book about this subject and I will not get dragged in any such discussions:

"...Slavic names that in Dubrovnik betokened lowly origins."

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"He could, he proudly notes at the outset, have written in Latin, though in practice he chose Italian because other merchants would fint it easier to understand."

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"The cultural life of Dubrovnik, viewed in round, was indeed that of a distinctive but integral part of the Mediterranean world. This important truth was so evident that to contemporaries that they barely bothered to remark upon it. It is only subsequent political and ideological debates that have confused the issue. There is thus, for example, no evidence that Ragusans felt that their general use of Croatian apparent in everyday speech from the late thirteenth century, and increasingly so in literary works from the mid-fifteenth century, marked out an alternative cultural direction. As the greatest Dalmatian Renaissance literary figure [...] noted in his epic [...], it was written in Croatian for those who 'were not learned in Latin books'."

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"It is impossible to trace with any certainty the precise balance between Slavic and Latin-Romance languages in Dubrovnik at paticular times. [...] There was still in use in the debating chamber and the courts what was known as Old Ragusan. It contained elements of Italian and Croatian and was probably a survival of Dalmatian Latin, a distinct Romance language spoken in urban centres on the Dalmatian and Albanian coast for many centuries after the end of the Roman Empire."

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"What is less clear is the impact which such trends had upon the language used by the well-educated and well-born. Some intellectuals, [...] deplored the widespread use of Croatian by his contemporaries in place of the Old Ragusan used by their predecessors. [...] A Venetian visitor noted that while the Ragusan womenfolk did indeed use Croatian, Ragusan men used Italian as well. The impression that Ragusan women, being in general less educated, predominantly used Croatian is confirmed by the experience of the Jesuit Bartol Kašić in the 1620s."

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It's a complex issue, but to summerise, with all this information, the conclusions are:
- Croatian/Slavic were predominant in the lower classes/origins, while Old Ragusan and Italian were of the more well-educated and well-born inhabitants.
- Italian (specially Venetian) was the predominant language for trade, an activity in the very core of the Republic.
- The ideal language for Ragusa would be neither Italian nor Croatian, but Old Ragusan
- Old Ragusan is a dead language nobody speaks anymore. However, it seems to have been a Romance Language derived from Dalmatian Latin over the centuries, NOT of a Slavic Language.
- Italian should be used, not Croatian.

I hope I haven't offended anyone, just wanted to share the info and views I got from this very relevant book. I am not willing to get in any discussion about the matter.

[Aneirin]

Love that book, it is actually THE book about Ragusa in English

[thekingsmen]

u didnt ofend anyone,but if the woman spoke inly croatian it means that croatian vas the comon spoken language and italian is used for doing buisnis,if the ragusan nobility spoke italian in their homes as their first language they wouldnt consider themself croats but they did cuz we have their poetry and literature where they call themself croats

[Dusan Silni]

u didnt ofend anyone,but if the woman spoke inly croatian it means that croatian vas the comon spoken language and italian is used for doing buisnis,if the ragusan nobility spoke italian in their homes as their first language they wouldnt consider themself croats but they did cuz we have their poetry and literature where they call themself croats

well there are also poetries where they call them selves Serbs but I know where is this gonna go now, so lets just say they were South Slavs who spoke italian!

[thekingsmen]

noup
we cant agre what hapend we need to explore what hapend in the past,what vas and how it vas

u have an totalitarian mentality,are u a marxist?

is it 19. century poetry?

[Wikiceha]

Italian spoke only 2% of population in Italy in 1861, the time when Italy was united.
Making Dubrovnik spoke Italian would be a huge error, as standard Croatian is based on the Dubrovnik dialect.
Native language should be croatian...

Standard Serbian is based on dialects of the orthodox east of Dubrovnik, although those dialects are very close there is a slight difference.
Also, ortdox church only came in that area in 13th century (rise of the Nemanjići) and was not dominant until the 17th century and the Turks.
Local Dubrovčani intermarried with nobility from Popovo (wesern part of Ravno municipality in fBiH and some border villages in RS), but that nobility was catholic.

Standard Croatian is based on local Dubrovnik dialect, although it has some legacy from other croatian dialects and writers from the south.
Standard Serbian is based on dialects from Dubrovnik eastern hinterland, and "enriched" with a lot more legacy from other serbian dialects, especialy from Vojvodina region.
More there are 2 Serbian standards, one ekavian (spoken by about 4/5 of Serbs, mostly in Serbia), and one yekavian (spoken by about 1/5 of Serbs, mostly in Montenegro and BiH).
Dialect of Dubrovnik is yekavian, and part of croatian speaches....

[thekingsmen]

so we dont know what those ruling clases spoke at home,so many literature from ragusa but we cant determine that?
what is the situation in the 15 century,what do u think?

[Wikiceha]

Mostly croatian. We see that in the literature, which is basis for croatian standard.

[thekingsmen]

so if they would use romanic or italian just cuz they used italian profesionaly that would be the same as making every factions priest speaking latin or greece

[Julio85]

most are poliglots and they use italian for trade but croatian at home

mmmm Venetian Italian was a trade language but not the real language of the Republic (something used for formal or for trade).
Italian as a language were born later on, every single county/region had his own specific dialect (or language as you may want to call them)

Wikiceha is right but not complete. at the time of union Italians spoke different dialects than they (the government) pick up one of them and they recognised it as formal Italian language.
I think Crotian would be the best language to made the Rugusian speak....
I understand that the Ragusian is a dead language but Italian wars use recorded voices in modern language to give a taste of languages different I guess.

[thekingsmen]

well yes and the coolest thing is that there is a number of ragusan nobels who were poets same time and some of them wrote about croatian homeland and similar,i cant imagine them feeling like that if they had ragusan as theyr primary language