Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 33 of 33

Thread: The U.S. Debt Ceiling and the Possible Financial Cliff

  1. #21
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: The U.S. Debt Ceiling and the Possible Financial Cliff

    Democrats: we need to raise the debt ceiling so we don’t go broke
    Republicans: ok but we should probably at least cut spending too so this doesn’t keep happening
    Republicans: ok but we should probably at least cut spending too so this doesn’t keep happening - and to show were honest will get rid of the Trump and super reckless Bush Jr Tax cuts... wait that was not on the table? Oh your right they are proposing restoring the tax system from the 60s when we and growth and no massive wealth and income inequality - no? hmm?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #22

    Default Re: The U.S. Debt Ceiling and the Possible Financial Cliff

    Breaking news: Republicans prefer cutting spending to raising taxes.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  3. #23
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cool and normal
    Posts
    5,419

    Default Re: The U.S. Debt Ceiling and the Possible Financial Cliff

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Breaking news: Republicans* prefer cutting spending to raising taxes.
    *some
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  4. #24
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: The U.S. Debt Ceiling and the Possible Financial Cliff

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Breaking news: Republicans prefer cutting spending to raising taxes.
    Breaking news too many republicans live an Ayn Rand inspired fantasy work - and lately that likely is an insult to Ayn. But be my guest explain the logic of launching the forever war on global terror and cutting taxes I am sure that makes sense somehow.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #25
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cool and normal
    Posts
    5,419

    Default Re: The U.S. Debt Ceiling and the Possible Financial Cliff

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Breaking news too many republicans live an Ayn Rand inspired fantasy work - and lately that likely is an insult to Ayn. But be my guest explain the logic of launching the forever war on global terror and cutting taxes I am sure that makes sense somehow.
    I somehow doubt that you're going to insult anyone who is inspired by Rand by saying they're Randian.

    The GOP however stopped being inspired by Rand with the end of the Neocons. They've drifted into populism lately - and mass movements was definitely not a Rand thing.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  6. #26

    Default Re: The U.S. Debt Ceiling and the Possible Financial Cliff

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Breaking news too many republicans live an Ayn Rand inspired fantasy work - and lately that likely is an insult to Ayn. But be my guest explain the logic of launching the forever war on global terror and cutting taxes I am sure that makes sense somehow.
    Ayn Rand is a meme and I’m not sure why I’m obligated to justify decades of bipartisan policy either or what that has to do with the thread topic. If the public wants Democrats to agree to spending cuts before raising the debt limit, the only motivation for refusal is generic partisanship, not moral opposition to Ayn Rand or the War on Terror.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  7. #27

    Default Re: The U.S. Debt Ceiling and the Possible Financial Cliff

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Well this is your thread so I just figured you had a point. But if it’s just to ignore the fact 60% of the public doesn’t want to raise the debt ceiling without spending cuts and thinks the Democrats spend too much and should negotiate, then we can conclude this is just a rant thread with no real basis for discussion.
    So, in the US we don't run policy based off a poll, we do it based on THE polls; elections. I don't see the US public being big fans of crashing the economy in a bid to "negotiate", right now. If the Dems don't play ball and negotiates with the GOP, what do you think happens next? What does the GOP do, exactly? Because to me, it seems like they have two choices: cave and pass the debt ceiling raise and look weak, or not pass the debt ceiling raise and default the US debt. Neither of those seem like strong moves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Breaking news: Republicans prefer cutting spending to raising taxes.
    No, they don't. They only say this when they aren't in a position to actual cut spending. When they have the power to do so they chicken out and don't reduce spending.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  8. #28
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cool and normal
    Posts
    5,419

    Default Re: The U.S. Debt Ceiling and the Possible Financial Cliff

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    No, they don't. They only say this when they aren't in a position to actual cut spending. When they have the power to do so they chicken out and don't reduce spending.
    Oh it goes beyond "don't reduce spending"



    Last edited by antaeus; January 31, 2023 at 10:59 PM. Reason: I know I know. They're satire. Don't get your knickers all in a twist.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  9. #29

    Default Re: The U.S. Debt Ceiling and the Possible Financial Cliff

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    So, in the US we don't run policy based off a poll, we do it based on THE polls; elections. I don't see the US public being big fans of crashing the economy in a bid to "negotiate", right now. If the Dems don't play ball and negotiates with the GOP, what do you think happens next? What does the GOP do, exactly? Because to me, it seems like they have two choices: cave and pass the debt ceiling raise and look weak, or not pass the debt ceiling raise and default the US debt. Neither of those seem like strong moves.

    No, they don't. They only say this when they aren't in a position to actual cut spending. When they have the power to do so they chicken out and don't reduce spending.
    It's such a disingenuous line to take.

    Public opinion also supports increasing taxes on the wealthy, especially billionaires and the majority of Americans want to eliminate the outdated electoral college for a popular vote. Let's see the quotes showing the allegedly populist GOP supporting increasing taxes on billionaires and eliminating the unpopular electoral college.
    "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "We have a protractor."

    Under Patronage of: Captain Blackadder

  10. #30

    Default Re: The U.S. Debt Ceiling and the Possible Financial Cliff

    Public polls have many shortcomings as well. I learned this when looking at a poll that showed that most Americans want universal healthcare; while it was true that poll showed that, it did NOT account for what the policy would actually be. Within that statistic was a hidden disagreement about single-payer, potential ban on private healthcare, and a number of other policy nuances that would not be agreed upon by the people who answered they wanted "universal healthcare". So from a policy standpoint, there is nothing to do with that poll. It doesn't help policy makers figure out what to do.

    Likewise, with the poll Lord Thesaurian linked, there may be a general belief that the public wants to reduce government spending but I can guarantee there is a strong disagreement about which expenditures should be reduced. So there is nothing the GOP can really do with that other than hold the debt hostage and try to figure out which cuts their constituency, specifically, wants. It's not really a sound strategy and, like I said, if Dems simply refuse to negotiate then Republicans are pretty much left with the choice of looking weak or wrecking the US economy. It's like trying to threaten somebody with MAD.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  11. #31
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cool and normal
    Posts
    5,419

    Default Re: The U.S. Debt Ceiling and the Possible Financial Cliff

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    Public polls have many shortcomings as well. I learned this when looking at a poll that showed that most Americans want universal healthcare; while it was true that poll showed that, it did NOT account for what the policy would actually be. Within that statistic was a hidden disagreement about single-payer, potential ban on private healthcare, and a number of other policy nuances that would not be agreed upon by the people who answered they wanted "universal healthcare". So from a policy standpoint, there is nothing to do with that poll. It doesn't help policy makers figure out what to do.

    Likewise, with the poll Lord Thesaurian linked, there may be a general belief that the public wants to reduce government spending but I can guarantee there is a strong disagreement about which expenditures should be reduced. So there is nothing the GOP can really do with that other than hold the debt hostage and try to figure out which cuts their constituency, specifically, wants. It's not really a sound strategy and, like I said, if Dems simply refuse to negotiate then Republicans are pretty much left with the choice of looking weak or wrecking the US economy. It's like trying to threaten somebody with MAD.
    To be fair, politics isn't about policy, or what benefits policy provides.

    The GOP doesn't need to provide solutions to what they claim are problems. Just to point out that the problems exist. Because while they may control one house on the hill, they are still effectively an opposition party.

    In that context, their role is to hold to account, and that's what they're doing. Lord is right to point out that they shouldn't automatically give in to Democratic party demands. It should be a negotiation. The real problem occurs here because the US doesn't really have a two party system any more, so it is difficult to come to an agreement between parties. The extreme faction of the GOP is only marginally more receptive to the GOP mainstream than they are to the Democrats. So we're stuck with an opposition party that is being oppositional without the ability to move beyond this in any constructive way. Which is kinda the point.

    Of course, the GOP can continue to do this so long as enough of their constituents agree with their position and aren't being obviously materially affected. As in previous bouts of hostage taking over debt, at some point enough GOP constituents start to become materially impacted, and the GOP mainstream moves to consensus. It would be nice if we didn't have to watch this process unfold, knowing how it will end up. But hey...
    Last edited by antaeus; February 02, 2023 at 06:58 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  12. #32
    Ramashan's Avatar Artifex
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    4,991

    Default Re: The U.S. Debt Ceiling and the Possible Financial Cliff

    To me, the shame of this whole thing is, with such tight margins between GOP and Dems one would think that it would be obvious that neither side has a real 'mandate' and that both sides need to be doing the work to negotiate a deal.

    But on both sides, and more so currently with in the GOP since they have the greater voter margin, there are extremes that have dug in. And on this site, being one based off of games concerning historical warfare, we all know how well Trench Warefare works. Sure, eventually one side will win, but it's going to be a long battle of attrition to get there.

    The bill that's now being asked to be paid was spent by both parties. Personally, I feel that if the GOP really wants to moderate spending, then they have 2 years to make the cuts and moderate spending after paying for the expensive of past admins.

    All the debates right now having nothing to do with the debt we owe, but with the future debt we're going to accrue. Do you sit down with your family and say, "I'm not going to pay our credit card bill unless you all agree to spending cuts. Well, you need to agree to them, I'm going to just keep putting money into that fresh Camaro I've been building in the garage." (Camaro is code for US military spending in case the metaphor wasn't obvious)

    At some point we need to see the slim majority for what it is: A mandate to compromise.

    Be safe - Ramashan
    Last edited by Ramashan; February 06, 2023 at 07:42 PM.
    Under the Patronage of Lord Condormanius

  13. #33
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    4,294

    Default Re: The U.S. Debt Ceiling and the Possible Financial Cliff

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Republicans sure love to spend money when they're in office. They only ever seem to care about the debt ceiling when it's not their turn. Not one single spending cut proposed by the Republicans is supported by the majority of Americans. I don't want the US to default by Republicans are intent on crashing the US economy and shooting themselves in the foot as long as they don't get their way.
    These one sided accusations don't really hold water. Being terrible with money really is a bipartisan thing since Obama (including him). The Trump administration added about 6.5 Trillion, yes, but they really had the 'corona excuse'. Biden added close to 4 Trillion now, but instead of admitting the truth, they even claimed they've reduced the total debt by 1.7 Tr., which is a bold faced lie, nothing else. Nothing economically sound will ever come from a government like this nor from a FED chair who even goes along with all that.

    US Spending policy is completely out of control since Obama and there is no end in sight, on the contrary. There are young politicians popping up who are infected by this so called "Modern Monetary Theory" (MMT), which is a brand of... let's call it "financial philosophy" that basically allows for the rationalization of large scale ad hoc debt creation. They call for much more radical spending policy than what we've seen in the past decade. This MMT business is really nothing modern at all, just a rebranding of old and faulty offshoots of Keynsianism. If this really gains traction as I fear it will, because it's increasingly seen as a magic bullet for social reformers, we're all on the path to repeating Argentinian history. European left wing governments are bound to imitate every insanity from the US. This of course plays right into the hands of the BRICS countries, most prominently our special friend China. In the end the entire Western world will suffer. This partisan bickering is really petty. They all suck.

    Edit:

    Oh well...
    I'm not criticising Biden for his ambitions with regard to social reforms, that is in of itself a good thing, but the timing was really terrible. In my humble opinion, the responsible thing to do would have been to wait until the worst stress on the monetary system (caused by corona, the war in Ukraine and other factors as well as accompanying aggressive speculation) ebbs off. I'm certainly not the only one who finds this glaringly obvious. It was forseeable that rising inflation would even be bad for Biden's popularity, but they acted impulsively and rushed the whole thing, causing a cascading effect that significantly amplified inflation.

    But, I don't think the last three presidencies and the involved spending behavior was the actual root cause of the problems we're in now, though. Looking back, it's very clear that it was actually mismanagement by the Federal Reserve since the early 2000s. This is all well known stuff and I would have expected more wisdom from characters like Janet Yellen and Powell and of course Biden himself. Obviously this was completely misplaced trust.

    They already have their next rampage coming, I suppose, and this is likely going to go on and on, no matter who is in charge. Pandora's box might have been opened somehow. I don't see much reason for optimism, observing what is going on over the pond. I fear that Obama with his historical charisma (oh I loved the guy) causes the following administrations to try and "do great things" somehow. This is nonsense. Someone has got to come down from this pursuit of pseudo-heroism and bring normal, responsible, boring politics back on the table to do the wherewithal that is needed. Then after a while we can have the Marvel characters back or whatever. Especially Bernie sanders needs to lay down his ambitions and enjoy his life, as should Biden btw (Trump of course should never have run for candidacy). What is it with all those old people, actually? I cannot comprehend for the life of me how anyone would do this to their twilight years?!
    Last edited by swabian; June 20, 2023 at 09:46 PM.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •