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Thread: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

  1. #1
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    Here is the video of a Historian analyzing movies over their medieval warfare realism. I am not sure if this is the proper forum for this, but I believe many of you will find this interesting.
    Some of the examples were quite obvious while others caught me by surprise as I haven't thought of what the historian was saying (like how the archers in the dark shooting at enemies near a fire would be invisible to them). In some cases though... I don't actually agree with his analysis.
    For example, there's a clip from JoArc movie where some big balls come out of chutes and he says "you see them, so you can step out of the way". Ehh... No, I don't think you can do that when surrounded by a bunch of people, not that you would necessarily be looking at these chutes when English were shooting at you from above the wall.
    Last edited by alhoon; January 25, 2023 at 07:26 AM.
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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    Some of the examples were quite obvious while others caught me by surprise as I haven't thought of what the historian was saying (like how the archers in the dark shooting at enemies near a fire would be invisible to them). In some cases though... I don't actually agree with his analysis.
    A point Xenophon makes over and over again. You light watch fires but the guys guarding them are yards and yards away in the dark waiting for the light to both illuminate the infiltrators and night blind them - if its cold dress warmly because huddling around watch fire on the perimeter is a death trap. Same for torches.

    For example, there's a clip from JoArc movie where some big balls come out of chutes and he says "you see them, so you can step out of the way". Ehh... No, I don't think you can do that when surrounded by a bunch of people, not that you would necessarily be looking at these chutes when English were shooting at you from above the wall.
    I think the point is rather its over contrived and engineered. You just toss rocks over the side of the wall or drop them down off your Hoarding. I suppose the key thing about his claim is you could count the holes and know were the balls are going to come out - and further unlike Hollywood likes to imagine always all the time armies are not mobs of rioters so they could simply form gaps. Also that is a lot work making balls that are not going to be shot for artillery. The Latter breaks enemy artillery or Towers or rams etc. - any old heavy thing dropped from a wall kills a solder.

    Compare the criticism of the Rhodian automatic catapult. The system rather locked itself into one line of fire and its aim and firing trajectory was not easily altered (compared to other light bolt shooters which where mounted on a swivel and the crew could move the aim as the chose easily) Thus troops could figure that out and avoid its line of fire (think a MG emplacement but you knew the gun took 20 minutes or more to alter where it was firing) - they were not a mob. Probably did not matter for Rhodes since they almost certainly were used primarily on ships where the natural motion of the ship rendered that not a factor, but you see the point from a critic - a working siege engineer about a fixed firing solution in a siege.

    On balance I don't he gets to it or its another historian but the uber complex ball wall drop system is about likely as boiling oil. A resource nobody under siege would waste. First just drop rocks and bricks... maybe boiling water and maybe hot sand (I believe there is one or two vague references in medieval Islamic lit for that but they are at the romance edge of history).

    Also

    not that you would necessarily be looking at these chutes when English were shooting at you from above the wall.
    You got a lot time in a siege to stare at the other side and do things like even count bricks/stones to estimate how long your ladders need to be (sucks real hard if they are too short). Pretty sure everyone and their brother would know where the bowling ball ejectors were. And in reality in all honesty such a system would probably remarked upon and known ahead of time as a really silly but expensive and cool bit of engineering. But pretty sure on the morning some grizzled sergeant would be saying right lads now remember the flags - the engineers better men than you stayed up late to put them down any one of you who gets hit by a damn bowling ball better prey you die for your stupidity because if you don't I kill you myself as a waste of time and not quickly.


    Glad he touched on the silly Hollywood fetish the ready aim fire bow thing. Pretty sure there is another video where he knocks the fetish for flaming arrows as well. Not this guy but another video mentions Hollywood's love of exploding cannon balls from obviously not shell tossing weapons. But you know what Michael Bay would say about forgetting explosions the game is to make MFing money.
    Last edited by conon394; February 08, 2023 at 07:19 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    What is the Rhodian automatic catapult?
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    What is the Rhodian automatic catapult?
    You really never heard of it?

    The Polybolos. You should be able to wiki it basically a hopper loader and a continuous chain action to to both reset the bolt thrower and reload with a spinning drop method cylinder. We are talking only the lightest kind of bolt thrower But taken altogether it was not as easily retargeted as the comparable all manual ones [Cutting crew size and thus critical when you want a '4' to still be a viable ship type and thus have both minimal addition ship expert crew needed and maximum fire rate for you artillery artillery] . It is also a bit difficult to know exactly how it worked. It existed and was used that is clear. But the only description is from an engineer working for a rival power given after what seems to have a been a professional politeness view (if that maybe just what he was told) and not a real examination. But basically the automated action prevented it having the pintle mount that a light bolt shooter typically had that seems certain.

    For a long time it was deemed fantasy since for example working chains gears were thought non existent in the classical world and than with some discoveries only sure but too inefficient but than with still better chains discovered umm I guess not fantastical.

    I do believe myth busters got a version that was reasonably accurate to work. Of course like all modern reconstructions they very much did not use the proper material for the springs and did not tension them to point were the thing would essentially maybe blowup and kill the operators - something the that classical world accepted as part of doing business. Trebuchets were in fact a lot safer for the engineers and less expensive - not better in some absolute way but safe and cheap. I am pretty sure its Josephus who recollects the result of a roman crew going for maximum range on their settings and the resulting mess when the springs on the catapult 'blew up' and took its expensive highly trained crew with it and shredding them doing it.
    Last edited by conon394; January 26, 2023 at 06:02 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    I have never heard of the polybolos being referred to as the Rhodesian catapult before. The polybolos is a form of ballista in terms of modern usage. Today we tend to restrict usage of "catapult" to refer to the one arm torsion machines like the onager (or incorrectly, a lever action machine like a trebuchet) when referring to action siege machines, although technically, a catapult can be any ancient military devise for hurtling missiles.

    One thing the historian criticized about Hollywood movies, which many other historians do as well, is the lack of helmets or other armors being worn. But I wonder if this criticism isn't a bit over exaggerated. We know that people did not always were armor or even helmets, especially the poorer soldiers, who would always make up the bulk of most pre-modern armies. If you look at the soldiers at this image from the Bayeux Tapestry of the Battle of Hastings, you see the soldiers in the upper right corner wearing neither helmets nor armor, but only have shields.


    Although the main characters of the Hollywood movies would be among the elites, who would be wearing helmets and armor, so perhaps the criticism has a little justification.
    But Tacitus writes about the poverty of the Germanic warriors, who were armed with just a wicker shield and a spear. Here is what Tacitus says about Germanic warriors

    " 6. Even iron is not plentiful 38 among them; as may be inferred from the nature of their weapons. Swords or broad lances are seldom used; but they generally carry a spear, (called in their language framea, 39) which has an iron blade, short and narrow, but so sharp and manageable, that, as occasion requires, they employ it either in close or distant fighting. 40 This spear and a shield are all the armor of the cavalry. The foot have, besides, missile weapons, several to each man, which they hurl to an immense distance. 41 They are either naked, 42 or lightly covered with a small mantle; and have no pride in equipage: their shields only are ornamented with the choicest colors. 43 Few are provided with a coat of mail; 44 and scarcely here and there one with a casque or helmet." https://www.gutenberg.org/files/7524/7524-h/7524-h.htm

    For an earl Medieval army, and many Viking warriors could be classified among them, a lot of the warriors could be fighting nearly naked. There is an increase in the amount of armor worn as the Middle Ages progresses. Compare the armor of warriors from the time of Charlemagne to the armor of the Battle of Hastings 2 centuries later:





    Note how the mail armor of the Charlemagne warriors do not cover as much of the body as the Norman warriors of the Bayeux Tapestry. But take a look at the 13th century warriors and how mail is covering up even more of the body than the 11th century Normans.

    And take a look at this 15th century illuminate manuscript of the Battle of Crecy. The amount of amor the crossbowmen are wearing are all over the map. Some crossbowmen are wearing just hats, while others are wearing helmets and plate armor on their arms.. (But note, that when you see the crossbowmen's exposed butts, it looks like they could be wearing mail hoses under their cloth stocking, so the crossbowmen might be wearing more armor than it first appears. But those do look like just hats some of the crossbowmen are wearing, and this at a time when armor was very common.)


    My point is that even experts could be wrong in some of their criticism.





    Battle of Crecy, 15th century illuminated manuscript. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cr%C3%A9cy

    PS - It is clear from what Flavius Vegetius wiring in the De Re Militari that even the Roman soldiers were not routinely wearing helmets or armor by the late 4th century. So for earlier medieval period, the lack of helmets and armor might not be as unrealistic as assumed, but by the later Middle Ages, helmets are not shown nearly as much as they should be in film.

    " But the method of the ancients no longer is followed. For though after the example of the Goths, the Alans and the Huns, we have made some improvements in the arms of the cavalry, yet it is plain the infantry are entirely defenseless. From the foundation of the city till the reign of the Emperor Gratian, the foot wore cuirasses and helmets. But negligence and sloth having by degrees introduced a total relaxation of discipline, the soldiers began to think their armor too heavy, as they seldom put it on. They first requested leave from the Emperor to lay aside the cuirass and afterwards the helmet. In consequence of this, our troops in their engagements with the Goths were often overwhelmed with their showers of arrows. Nor was the necessity of obliging the infantry to resume their cuirasses and helmets discovered, notwithstanding such repeated defeats, which brought on the destruction of so many great cities.
    Troops, defenseless and exposed to all the weapons of the enemy, are more disposed to fly than fight. What can be expected from a foot-archer without cuirass or helmet, who cannot hold at once his bow and shield; or from the ensigns whose bodies are naked, and who cannot at the same time carry a shield and the colors? The foot soldier finds the weight of a cuirass and even of a helmet intolerable. This is because he is so seldom exercised and rarely puts them on.
    But the case would be quite different, were they even heavier than they are, if by constant practice he had been accustomed to wear them. But it seems these very men, who cannot support the weight of the ancient armor, think nothing of exposing themselves without defense to wounds and death, or, which is worse, to the shame of being made prisoners, or of betraying their country by flight; and thus to avoid an inconsiderable share of exercise and fatigue, suffer themselves ignominiously to be cut in pieces. With what propriety could the ancients call the infantry a wall, but that in some measure they resembled it by the complete armor of the legionary soldiers who had shields, helmets, cuirasses, and greaves of iron on the right leg; and the archers who had gauntlets on the left arm. These were the defensive arms of the legionary soldiers. Those who fought in the first line of their respective legions were called principes, in the second hastati, and in third triarii."

    http://www.digitalattic.org/home/war...index.php#b117

    Last edited by Common Soldier; January 26, 2023 at 06:24 PM. Reason: correct errors in pasting.

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    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    I have never heard of the polybolos being referred to as the Rhodesian catapult before. The polybolos is a form of ballista in terms of modern usage. Today we tend to restrict usage of "catapult" to refer to the one arm torsion machines like the onager (or incorrectly, a lever action machine like a trebuchet) when referring to action siege machines, although technically, a catapult can be any ancient military devise for hurtling missiles.


    Read more

    It is what
    Dionysius of Alexandria (so umm maybe a scoop for Rhodes) called it and specifically meant a unique auto loading and firing light bolt shooting catapult it was made in Rhodes for Rhodes alone. Philo of course as working for a rival likely as I noted did not get close look but his description is clear in the Greek he left behind - 'polybolos' - which rusty as my koine Greek is - is many or multi shooter. maybe he did not get your naming memo?

    Today we tend to restrict usage of "catapult"


    We do Sorry I must have missed that lecture. Can I get recertified? Did I violate a federal regulation?

    One thing the historian criticized about Hollywood movies, which many other historians do as well, is the lack of helmets or other armors being worn. But I wonder if this criticism isn't a bit over exaggerated. We know that people did not always were armor or even helmets, especially the poorer soldiers, who would always make up the bulk of most pre-modern armies. If you look at the soldiers at this image from the Bayeux Tapestry of the Battle of Hastings, you see the soldiers in the upper right corner wearing neither helmets nor armor, but only have shields.
    Yes the poor jokers hoping to live and get a shot raiding the dead for armor. Hollywood's problem is rich people who can afford armor don't forget their helmets.

    For an earl Medieval army, and many Viking warriors could be classified among them, a lot of the warriors could be fighting nearly naked. There is an increase in the amount of armor worn as the Middle Ages progresses. Compare the armor of warriors from the time of Charlemagne to the armor of the Battle of Hastings 2 centuries later:


    Tacitus is not above more than a little romancing and BS in how he describes the Germans. Not sure I would rest my argument on Vegetius either - two men not exactly veterans.

    And take a look at this 15th century illuminate manuscript of the Battle of Crecy. The amount of amor the crossbowmen are wearing are all over the map. Some crossbowmen are wearing just hats, while others are wearing helmets and plate armor on their arms.. (But note, that when you see the crossbowmen's exposed butts, it looks like they could be wearing mail hoses under their cloth stocking, so the crossbowmen might be wearing more armor than it first appears. But those do look like just hats some of the crossbowmen are wearing, and this at a time when armor was very common.)
    Really , I mean you going with that picture for not helmets. OK count every soldier in the picture and than the number who have just felt head gear - which could quite be they droped their helmet or rushed off with out it but you are reaching. I not counting but eyeball says at least 99% of the figures have what is clearly meant to be a metal helmet.
    Last edited by conon394; January 26, 2023 at 10:16 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    Oh, the Polybolos was the Rhodian Catapult?

    Anyway, about artistic depictions of soldiers by artists probably quite some time after the battle and the lack of helmets I would consider the artists falling to the same trappings as Hollywood.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    It was a Rhodian catapult. My main point was just that in relation to the bowling ball ejector used in a siege it a something of fixed trajectory and line of fire. This in fact was what an expert engineer of the time deemed a defect. That is that unlike Hollywood an army is not a mob and that they could simply avoid said line of fire - which is what the historian pointed out for the ball system.
    Last edited by conon394; January 28, 2023 at 04:16 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    [QUOTE=conon394;16131031]

    We do Sorry I must have missed that lecture. Can I get recertified? Did I violate a federal regulation? {/quote]

    Yes, you violated the rule of using words without being aware or care of how words are commonly used If you are too ignorant to know the image most people have when you say catapult, you need to get better informed.


    Yes the poor jokers hoping to live and get a shot raiding the dead for armor. Hollywood's problem is rich people who can afford armor don't forget their helmets.


    Armor and helmets can be uncomfortable to wear. A person, who thinks the risk of getting hit on the head low enough, might choose not to wear a helmet. Getting heat stroke due to wearing a hot metal helmet might offset the safety it provides. Swords were used right through the 19th century, yet soldiers abandoned wearing helmets by the end of the 17th century, including the officers who could afford wearing helmets. Helmets might not stop a musket ball, but they would provide protection against a saber slash, yet helmets were not worn.


    Tacitus is not above more than a little romancing and BS in how he describes the Germans. Not sure I would rest my argument on Vegetius either - two men not exactly veterans.
    It is not just Tacitus, it multiple ancient writers who specifically mention Celtic and Germanic warriors fighting nude

    " Polybius' Histories describe how the Gaesatae, hired by other Celtic peoples, the Boii and Insubres, as mercenaries to fight the Romans, stood naked at the head of their army at the Battle of Telamon in 225BC.[1] The Boii and Insubres at this very battle are described fighting barechested, retaining only their trousers, shoes and cloaks.[2]Diodorus Siculus reported other instances of such combat: "Some use iron breast-plates in battle, while others fight naked, trusting only in the protection which nature gives."[3]
    Livy tells of how the Tolistobogii of Galatia fought naked, being proud of their spilt blood and even widening gashes they received themselves.[4]
    At the Battle of Cannae, Hannibal employed masses of Insubres and Boii warriors. Polybius describes them as fighting naked, armed only with their oval shields and long swords, although Livy has them only nude from waist up.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudity_in_combat

    Really , I mean you going with that picture for not helmets. OK count every soldier in the picture and than the number who have just felt head gear - which could quite be they droped their helmet or rushed off with out it but you are reaching. I not counting but eyeball says at least 99% of the figures have what is clearly meant to be a metal helmet.


    No, I went with the comments of the Tacitus, Vegetius, the Bayeux Tapestry, as well as the ancient writers like Polybius, Livy, and others who testify to warriors fighting nude. And Olympic athletes also competed nude. Heavy physical exertion, like fighting and completing in Olympic sports, can get you hot, and warriors might chose to fight most naked, especially when they had a big shield.

    What are you using for the basis of your assertions? Your extensive personal knowledge of fighting to the death with shields and spears? The painter lived during those times, and many of the people who saw those illustrations would have experience battle first hand. If the details were totally invented, they would know, and likely would object.

    Do you have any primary sources for how much people wore armor? And if you hadread what I wrote, I used the Battle of Crecy illustration to show even at a late date, went armor was more available than it had ever been, people still when without wearing helmets, or at least the people who lived in those times thought so. As I pointed, the amount of armor worn during the Middle Ages seems to have increased as the Middle Ages progressed.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; January 27, 2023 at 04:25 PM.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    Yes, you violated the rule of using words without being aware or care of how words are commonly used If you are too ignorant to know the image most people have when you say catapult, you need to get better informed.
    And you are being pompous in the extreme...

    I used exactly the words I intended. I really can't see you objection unless you are going out of your to be obtuse are trying at being humorously sarcastic and I am missing it or you are missing the mark badly.

    In Post #2 I made reference to the' polybolos' as the repeating catapult of Rhodes which firmly described the machine in question. Using 'polybolos' would simply have required me to essentially say that and then add the same thing since on balance I would not expect most people to be like oh yes the polybolos the multi shooter that Dionysius of Alexandria made for classical Rhodes and was observed and recorded by Philo of Byzantium in his Belopoeica. Why I did not give the precise name was because it was vastly not important to the point. That point being in a siege the rather fixed nature of the weapon's firing solution was seen as a problem since an army is not a mob and could react around that fact. Which would be the same problem the bowling ball dropping chute would and that was the point. I suppose if I ever make the mistake of calling a Greek Hoplite shield a Hoplon you going to go all we now correct that mistake and make sure to call it an Argive aspis?

    And that point in fact would still be the point even if went out of my to type say multi shooting philonian euthytone and not philonian palintone since that would be utterly meaningless to most readers to just make clear in the koine Greek it was a bolt shooter not a stone or bolt shooter

    Catapult in context is easily the generally accepted term for all classical artillery from the earliest and all the torsion forms that followed. My post required no refinement. See

    "The Catapult a history" Tracy Rihill
    https://www.amazon.com/Catapult-Hist.../dp/1594161038

    "Engineering in the Ancient world"
    JG Landis

    Chapter 5 'Catapults' covering everything from the Gastraphetes to Onager

    https://www.amazon.com/Engineering-A...a-492224017609

    A reconstruction of the Greek–Romanrepeating catapult

    Cesare Rossi, Flavio Russo
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...94114X09001402

    https://www.science.org/doi/pdf/10.1...cience.1091066

    Duncan B. Campbell. “ANCIENT CATAPULTS: Some Hypotheses Reexamined.” Hesperia: The Journalof the American School of Classical Studies at Athens 80, no. 4(2011): 677–700. https://doi.org/10.2972/hesperia.80.4.0677.


    Today we tend to restrict usage of "catapult" to refer to the one arm torsion machines like the onager
    I am profoundly unaware any such common usage - when of course saying onager would easily be more understandable - who is we?
    Last edited by conon394; January 29, 2023 at 11:17 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #11
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post

    I am profoundly unaware any such common usage - when of course saying onager would easily be more understandable - who is we?
    I am in the "We" he mentions and so are most of my friends.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  12. #12

    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    I used exactly the words I intended.
    [/QUOTE]



    When I do a Google search on repeating catapults or ballista, I don't see anyone that uses the term "rhodian catapult".

    Can you provide an example where the term "rhodian catapult" was used to refer to a specific type of repeating catapult? Lots of examples of polybolos and repeating catspukts, butI have not seen anyone using the phrase "rhodian catapult but you.

    I am profoundly unaware any such common usage - when of course saying onager would easily be more understandable - who is we?
    You need to read more.

    " A catapult is a machine for hurtling projectiles. There are different kinds, but the most common involves a long arm pulled back and then forcefully released to launch a large object. A trebuchet is a specific type of catapult that’s gravity-powered—it uses a counterweight that pulls down and rapidly raises another part that then flings the object from a sling."

    https://www.dictionary.com/e/trebuchet-vs-catapult/

    As what the article above says, and the what I said, the common idea many people of a catapult is a one arm throwing device. Commonly, when people refer to a 2 arm torsion machine, they use the word ballista, although some extremely pompous people will insult the ballista is just a bolt throwing item and the catapult is the 2 arm stone throwing torsion machinez or vice versa. But commonly.in many people's mind, when they think of a catapult, they think a one arm spring machine like the onager.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; January 29, 2023 at 05:22 PM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    So this is my friend Dr. Roel Konijnendijk and basically he's aware of most of the commentary here (and elsewhere) but the studio only gave so much time and also cuts what he says.
    "A catapult is a machine for hurtling projectiles. There are different kinds, but the most common involves a long arm pulled back and then forcefully released to launch a large object. A trebuchet is a specific type of catapult that’s gravity-powered—it uses a counterweight that pulls down and rapidly raises another part that then flings the object from a sling."

    https://www.dictionary.com/e/trebuchet-vs-catapult/

    As what the article above says, and the what I said, the common idea many people of a catapult is a one arm throwing device. Commonly, when people refer to a 2 arm torsion machine, they use the word ballista, although some extremely pompous people will insult the ballista is just a bolt throwing item and the catapult is the 2 arm stone throwing torsion machines or vice versa. But commonly.in many people's mind, when they think of a catapult, they think a one arm spring machine like the onager.
    So no, this is not the difference between a καταπέλτης/καταπέλτικον and a βαλλίστρα. The difference is whether or not the torsion arms use a παλιντόνος or ευθυτόνος configuration (this does not mean inswinging vs. outswinging arms, but simply the position of the arms relative to the torsion housing - i.e., whether they were forward or rearward facing). A single-armed engine was known as a μονάγκον, aka the onager.

    The word mangonel comes from Arabic mandjanik which is derived either from μανγανόν/μανγανικόν or μονάγκον, which was used to refer to the traction trebuchet (alongside ἀλακάτιον). However today in colloquial use we refer to it as a type of Trebuchet.

    So what's the difference? A Ballista's arms faced forward, a Catapult's (or Springald's) arms faced rearwards, and an Onager had a single arm which faced rearwards. But what makes them different from a Trebuchet is that Trebuchets are not torsion powered; they are powered by traction or counterweights.
    Rhodian automatic catapult
    The word is πολυβόλος, invented by Dionysus of Alexandria and used during the siege of Rhodes in the 3rd century B.C., but actually described by Philon of Byzantion.
    Tacitus is not above more than a little romancing and BS in how he describes the Germans. Not sure I would rest my argument on Vegetius either - two men not exactly veterans.
    Tacitus describes the Germanics as iron-poor and I honestly think he may not actually be wrong here. We don't know if the problem is lack of reliable archaeology or if it was a major lack of iron in west Germania, but archaeological evidence shows there's almost no foreign-manufactured helmets from west Germania before the late 5th century A.D. The 3rd century bronze helmet from Breda is probably from a Roman auxiliary unit serving in the region, and was almost certainly manufactured in the Pontic region. The helmets from Vimose and Thorsberg Mose are Roman Cavalry helmets. None of the post-Celtic types of helmets found in the Pontic sphere have ever been found in west Germania, and we only have a tiny number of modified Roman captures from the Batavian revolt. The earliest helmets we have are those from Freiburg (Tejral D2 so c. 420/430-455 AD) and Grimeton (Tejral D1 or D2 so c. 380-455 AD) in Germany and Sweden, which are probably related to a Hunnic helmet from Tarasovo Grave 782, and are a type of Proto-Baldenheim-type, an almost explicitly late 5th-early 7th century Roman export helmet. Band helmets like those from Trivieres, Shorwell, etc. don't appear until the last quarter of the 5th century, and the Hunnic examples (Tsaritsyno and Turaeovo) are too far East to be used as evidence for west Germania. That leaves the Biberwier-types, which are imitation ridge helmets, but even those have been found in an east Germanic context (the two definitive examples are from Biberwier and a Private Collection in Bulgaria).

    Maille armor is evidenced, but also somewhat rare. We can discern Roman vs. non-Roman maille by ring shape, size, and also patterns in manufacturing (clockwise vs. anticlockwise, where different parts are joined, etc.) It was clearly in use and available, but not nearly as common as it suddenly becomes in late antiquity.

    This leads me to wonder if there was some sort of iron boom in Germania that occurred in the 3rd to 5th centuries? I don't have the necessary evidence to prove that though. Even so, the evidence from within Germania, that is the Trans-Rhine and Trans-Danube parts of Germany, Poland, etc., is really poor both within and after this era too. The finds are almost all from the regions formerly under Roman control or influence, like Trier or Cologne. Breda and Groningen probably are late 6th to early 7th century and of Frisian manufacture, but bear clear evidence of Sassanid influence. The first early medieval helmet evidenced in west Europe after this is Yarm, which is probably 7th-8th century, and from Britain. Zlin is east European in Trans-Danubian Hungary, and almost certainly late 7th-early 8th century late Avar. Then there's another gap until the late 10th century, with the helmet from Oxford, assuming you consider the helmets manufactured in Prague (Prague, Bojna, Gnezdovo, Kostol, a few others) "Central" or "East" European, and even then it's clear those are being exported and are still late-9th to early-10th century. Gjermundbu is late 10th, same as Oxford (Pitt Rivers Museum), and so is Trncina. East Europe, particularly the Dagestan, Kuban, and Kiev regions, have tons of iron and gilded iron armor and helmets though.
    It is clear from what Flavius Vegetius wiring in the De Re Militari that even the Roman soldiers were not routinely wearing helmets or armor by the late 4th century.
    This is well known to be part of Vegetius' appeal to the ancient past as a "better time." Evidence from actual military authors like Filippikos (Maurice's brother and probable author of the Strategikon) suggests the Romans expected a minimum of 50% of soldiers to have access to metal armor. Archaeological evidence also shows widespread use of scale, maille, and gilded iron helmets in the 4th-5th centuries, and Niederstotzingen-type lamellar beginning around 520 A.D.
    For an earl Medieval army, and many Viking warriors could be classified among them, a lot of the warriors could be fighting nearly naked. There is an increase in the amount of armor worn as the Middle Ages progresses. Compare the armor of warriors from the time of Charlemagne to the armor of the Battle of Hastings 2 centuries later:
    Ignoring the Empire (that is, the Romans in Constantinople), we actually have really good literary and artistic evidence that maille was widespread.
    Though the institution of the "ship-sokes" in this annal has attracted the lion’s share of scholarly attention, the provision for the production of body armor is of equal military interest. Æthelred and his advisors apparently recognized that their troops were "outgunned" by the Vikings, and took the necessary steps to upgrade the equipment of their warriors. That this royal order was more than an exercise in paperwork is underscored by an interesting change in the composition of heriots before and after 1008. Mail coats and helmets are rarely found in heriots specified in tenth-century swills. After 1008, however, body armor appears as a matter of course. The tariff of heriots listed enumerated in II Cnut 71 stipulates that a king’s thegn in Wessex and Mercia (§ 1) was to render to the king four horses, two saddled and two unsaddled, two swords and four spears and as many shields and helmets and byrnies, which reflects the demand of the Crown that their warriors arm themselves and their followers properly. Thietmar of Merseburg, a contemporary writer, had heard that Æthelred in 1016 had "the incredible number" of twenty-four thousand coats-of-mail stored in his armory in London. One can only speculate how and to whom his officers distributed these weapons. What is certain, though, is that Æthelred used the powerful institutions of governance available to him to remedy the deficiencies in his military forces.
    Source: https://deremilitari.org/2013/07/eng...e-viking-wars/

    Furthermore, art shows a consistent pattern - reliefs from Milan, as well as multiple manuscripts, tend to show that 9th-12th century armies in west Europe typically had about 1/4th of their men armored with maille, and helmets were more widespread. Their position in columns of soldiers is also consistent, with the front two ranks being mailled, and those behind either having only helmets or no metal armor.

    Anyways that's just my two cents on this thread.
    Last edited by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius; February 02, 2023 at 10:53 AM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    This is well known to be part of Vegetius' appeal to the ancient past as a "better time." Evidence from actual military authors like Filippikos (Maurice's brother and probable author of the Strategikon) suggests the Romans expected a minimum of 50% of soldiers to have access to metal armor. Archaeological evidence also shows widespread use of scale, maille, and gilded iron helmets in the 4th-5th centuries, and Niederstotzingen-type lamellar beginning around 520 A.D.


    Vegetius point wasn't that armor wasn't available, but that the solider just didn't want to wear it. Like in modern combat, where soldiers wanted to take off their helmets because it was hot, despite the dangers it obviously represented should they ever be attacked. From what Vegetius wrote, it is clear that the armor was available, but being available and actually wearing it are two different things.

    Wearing armor for long periods of time can be uncomfortable, and despite popular impressions, ancient soldiers were not in constant battle all the time. Soldiers might well discard armor they find uncomfortable, and just rely on their shield, depending on the danger. If they face an enemy that is primarily swords and non throwing spears, they might believe shields are good enough. But when faced an army that relied heavily on arrows, a shield won't be enough protection against a shower of arrows. Why don't police always wear body armor? Body armor might not stop a .308 round, but today's armor is good enough to stop 9mm and most hand gun rounds, and many policemen are shot and killed.
    that could have been saved if they had worn body armor. But the police often don't wear body armor.

    It is not just Tacitus, or Vegetius that talk about warriors not wearing armor, a number of different sources all mention Celtic and Germanic warriors often fighting naked or nearly naked. One of the problems that Vegetius might have encountered is that the soldiers of the Western Roman Empire were heavily recruited from Germanic tribes, which were not use to wearing a lot of armor. Since a variety of sources indicate the Germans didn't wear a lot of armor, we can see where the push back against not wearing armor came form. These recruits would be used to not wearing armor in combat. Perhaps they thought it unmanly or unnecessary.

    This leads me to wonder if there was some sort of iron boom in Germania that occurred in the 3rd to 5th centuries? I don't have the necessary evidence to prove that though. Even so, the evidence from within Germania, that is the Trans-Rhine and Trans-Danube parts of Germany, Poland, etc., is really poor both within and after this era too. The finds are almost all from the regions formerly under Roman control or influence, like Trier or Cologne. Breda and Groningen probably are late 6th to early 7th century and of Frisian manufacture, but bear clear evidence of Sassanid influence. The first early medieval helmet evidenced in west Europe after this is Yarm, which is probably 7th-8th century, and from Britain. Zlin is east European in Trans-Danubian Hungary, and almost certainly late 7th-early 8th century late Avar.


    I think you could be right. I suspect many of the finds of armor in the former Roman areas may have been armor from former Roman auxiliaries. One think from the illustrations we have is that you see a steady rise in the amount of armor being worn. The 11th century Bayeux Tapestry show a lot more armor being worn than 9th illustrations of Charlemagne's warriors. and illustrations from the 12th century show more armor being worn than the soldiers of the Bayeux Tapestry. The hands of the soldiers in the Bayeux Tapestry are uncovered, but those of a 12th or 13th century have mail mittens. As Germanic warriors overran former Roman areas, they would have access to Roman iron working facilities, and the quantity, if not quality, of iron available.

    Germans from the early Migration period moved around a lot, and all that movement could be a hindrance to large scale iron production. Once the German tribes had settled down and stopped migrating, larger scale iron production could begin. In the early part of the Middle Ages, the Germanic warriors seemed to be composed of any able body man, but by the time of the 11th century and Bayeux Tapestry, the core of the fighting force would have been of well armored elites. Locally recruited and for the most part poorly armored militias might have complemented the fighting force, but main bulk of the fighting force would have been the heavily armored warriors. The warriors shown in the Bayeux Tapestry not wearing armor or helmets were likely just the local militia (fyrd). To meet the Norman threat, Harold had to rapidly travel from the north of England with just his dedicated soldiers, leaving the fyrd behind.

    Medieval illustrations and pictures like those from the Bayeux Tapestry give the impression that the majority of the soldiers in medieval combat from the 11th century onward were heavily armored knights or men-at-arms. But I wonder if that would is a case of artistic license. Certainly the impression these medieval illustrations give is that unarmored soldiers only made a tiny fraction on the battlefield, but other sources give the impression that the local peasant levies might have been more numerous than medieval illustrations and paintings would have us think. For example, Wikipedia on the Battle of Hastings says " Modern historians have offered a range of estimates for the size of William's forces: 7,000–8,000 men, 1,000–2,000 of them cavalry;[54] 10,000–12,000 men;[53] 10,000 men, 3,000 of them cavalry;[55] or 7,500 men.[31] " . Modern historians all seem to say that the majority of the Norman forces were infantry, yet the Bayeux Tapestry show the vast majority of the Normans being mounted warriors, with only a few foot soldiers shown. If modern historians are correct, they the Bayeux is giving us a somewhat distorted view of the Norman army.

    All this is an extremely long winded way of saying that perhaps not all of the historians criticisms of Hollywood are entirely accurate, when it comes to the lack of armor.

    Certainly by the time of
    Joan of Arc, and the Messenger leaders like Joan would have all been wearing helmets, but during the Northman, set around 9th or 10th century, that might not have been the case. Wealthy, successful Viking raider might have been wearing armor and helmets, but poorer, Norse just starting out on their first raid might not be as well armored. Hollywood knows enough not to Roman soldiers without their helmets (or at least, not often). You would expect kings and elites to be wearing helmets and armor, but not necessarily all the rank and file. We don't have many contemporary images of Viking warriors, and while we know some Vikings did wear helmets and mail shirts, that might have been confined to just the chieftains. We are pretty certain, thought, that the horned helmets associated with Vikings is actually a Celtic ceremonial helmet from centuries earlier.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    When I do a Google search on repeating catapults or ballista, I don't see anyone that uses the term "rhodian catapult".

    Can you provide an example where the term "rhodian catapult" was used to refer to a specific type of repeating catapult? Lots of examples of polybolos and repeating catspukts, butI have not seen anyone using the phrase "rhodian catapult but you.
    You are choosing to be willfully obtuse or just annoying and I'm not sure why.

    I was mentioning the criticism of a weapon with a fixed field of fire in siege the same and the fantasy bowling ball launcher in the movie. alhoon suggested he thought that the historian was wrong people would not be able to move. alhoon was right a Hollywood mob army would in fact not be able to move out of the way. I was using a criticism I remembered about the Polybolos to note that an ancient siege expert very much believed a proper army could in fact judge a fixed fire trajectory and simply not provided a target.

    So there is that.

    I could have typed the polybolos of Dioyniusus of Alexandria as described by Philo and that he built why employed at the arsenal of Rhodes... and it would not have added anything to point I was trying to make. I don't know how you google but repeating catapult and repeating catapult Rhodes return me a how list of articles describing the Polybolos and where it was built. Not that hard.

    In addition I no ideal what you decrying in my use of catapult. I demonstrated a list of expert books and peer reviewed articles that use catapult as a general term for ancient artillery in its varied forms. Thus I have no real understanding of your claim

    " Today we tend to restrict usage of "catapult" to refer to the one arm torsion machines like the onager (or incorrectly, a lever action machine like a trebuchet)"

    Given the ancient authors less consistent use of terminology and the fact that no manuscripts preserve any actual original illustrations going terminology dictator is a tad silly. The Historians are all over the map in descripting artillery and engines of war. But I will note the Athenians in the inventories of circa 330 contained torsion catapults and they were labeled as such - catapults (if they shot bolts or stones or both seemed not to important).


    ----------------

    Wearingarmor for long periods of time can be uncomfortable, and despitepopular impressions, ancient soldiers were not in constant battle allthe time. Soldiers might well discard armor they find uncomfortable,and just rely on their shield, depending on the danger. If they facean enemy that is primarily swords and non throwing spears, they mightbelieve shields are good enough. But when faced an army that reliedheavily on arrows, a shield won't be enough protection against ashower of arrows.
    that could havebeen saved if they had worn body armor. But the police often don'twear body armor.

    You are dodging and weaving a bit here. The key point made was that in the thick of close quarters combat you would be wearing your helmet. And you would have one movies are rarely about bob the poorest guy on peasant militia rounded up in desperation....


    Why don't police always wear body armor? Body armor might not stop a .308round, but today's armor is good enough to stop 9mm and most hand gun rounds, and many policemen are shot and killed.

    Actually not all that many cops are shot and killed there are more dangerous ways to make a living. But the better comparison how many SWAT or SWAT type cops are not wearing their kit for some kind raid or how many cop sare not carrying their shields helmets and full kit when facing a riot?

    edit - sorry edited - I tend to type up in open office and for some reason text gets randomly concatenated now
    Last edited by conon394; February 05, 2023 at 11:00 AM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    Here is an article that says similar things with the scholar about battles.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Here is an article that says similar things with the scholar about battles.
    Cracked does surprisingly good lists for what is supposed to a humor site (since its ever so minimally military related I will say the green plastic army men list is better and amazingly funny(*)). That being said at least for the classical world in many cases they preferred to not send kids first. In Athens for example you had to be 20 before you be sent off and the levy range was usually 20- 40/45 as considered the field army. And older veterans were appreciated. They might have lost a step or two but as the last row of the line they were trusted to know what to do and to keep the green guys in front on task. Aeschines was 40 when he served in the Athenian picked band and earned his crown for valor.

    *
    https://nowthatsnifty.blogspot.com/2...useful-in.html

    also

    https://thecombatworkshop.blogspot.c...my-men-of.html
    Last edited by conon394; February 05, 2023 at 11:01 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    You are choosing to be willfully obtuse or just annoying and I'm not sure why.

    I was mentioning the criticism of a weapon with a fixed field of fire in siege the same and the fantasy bowling ball launcher in the movie. alhoon suggested he thought that the historian was wrong people would not be able to move. alhoon was right a Hollywood mob army would in fact not be able to move out of the way. I was using a criticism I remembered about the Polybolos to note that an ancient siege expert very much believed a proper army could in fact judge a fixed fire trajectory and simply not provided a target.
    No, it is you who missed my point. You invented a term "rhodian catapult" and you really should not be surprised that people did not know what a term you invented meant, especially when the known term polybolos was available. I am not sure why it is believed that the polybolos would have to be fixed and not pivot like other ballistas, but if that was what ancient sources said, then it explains why the polybolos wasn't widely adopted.

    I agree that the bowling ball type defense in the movie wasn't practical or realistic for all the reasons stated, but that was never under dispute. The issue was your use of invented terms then acting as if other people were ignorant that they did not know terms you made up.


    In addition I no ideal what you decrying in my use of catapult. I demonstrated a list of expert books and peer reviewed articles that use catapult as a general term for ancient artillery in its varied forms. Thus I have no real understanding of your claim


    " Today we tend to restrict usage of "catapult" to refer to the one arm torsion machines like the onager (or incorrectly, a lever action machine like a trebuchet)"


    I was merely trying to let you know that the common perception in the mind of many persons today when you say "catapult" is something like an onager, and you got downright insulting. I am not saying that the perception is correct, but it is what many have in mind when the word catapult is mentioned, and you seem unaware of that common perception. Again, I am not saying that is the way it should be, but merely the way it is. Using terms like ballista instead of catapult could avoid potential confusion.



    You are dodging and weaving a bit here. The key point made was that in the thick of close quarters combat you would be wearing your helmet. And you would have one movies are rarely about bob the poorest guy on peasant militia rounded up in desperation....
    No, I am doing no such thing. We have not just one ancient writer, but several that testify to the fact that ancient warriors of Europe often went to battle naked or at least wearing very little armor, sometimes not even a helmet. Ignoring that evidence won't make it go away.

    1. Many of the warriors in a given battle would not have been experienced warriors, and peasants, and others recruited for battle would not have the money for helmet and proper armor. The use of flails, bills, and other weapons that were originally farm implements was because the weapons were likely originally just farm implements, that was what many of the warriors only had available, and they later proved to be effective weapons and developed specialized military versions.

    2. Wearing armor can be uncomfortable, especially for extended period of time. We have ancient writers (Vestegius) testify to the fact that comfort was the a factor why soldiers did not want to wear helmet and other army. A SWAT team isn't wearing their combat gear for days at a time, but soldiers in war might be. Even at the risk of danger, some warriors might chose comfort over safety. Well disciplined soldiers would be different from local recruits who grabbed whatever gear they could get.






    Actually not all that many cops are shot and killed there are more dangerous ways to make a living. But the better comparison how many SWAT or SWAT type cops are not wearing their kit for some kind raid or how many cop sare not carrying their shields helmets and full kit when facing a riot?
    And how many times would a SWAT team have to wear riot gear for weeks at a time? Or march 25 miles a day like Harold's did to reach the Battle of Hastings. And I imagine modern helmets are more comfortable to wear than ancient one.

    The real question is what percentage of soldiers on an ancient battlefield would be professional ones, and what percentage would be part time who had to provide all their own equipment?
    Last edited by Common Soldier; February 06, 2023 at 09:30 PM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Cracked does surprisingly good lists for what is supposed to a humor site (since its ever so minimally military related I will say the green plastic army men list is better and amazingly funny(*)). That being said at least for the classical world in many cases they preferred to not send kids first. In Athens for example you had to be 20 before you be sent off and the levy range was usually 20- 40/45 as considered the field army. And older veterans were appreciated. They might have lost a step or two but as the last row of the line they were trusted to know what to do and to keep the green guys in front on task. Aeschines was 40 when he served in the Athenian picked band and earned his crown for valor.
    In the classical world, maybe, but the phalanx warfare require a certain degree of training to be successful. In other places and times soldiers could be typically younger. Edward the Black Prince was only 16 when he commanded the king's vanguard at the Battle of Crécy. Men often became knights at 18 -21, and even before becoming knights they would have had experience in in the battlefield as squires, even if not on the front lines. The leaders of medieval armies were often surprisingly young. Edward the Black Prince I already me ruined, but Richard the Lion Heart was also only 16 when he commanded troops to put down rebellions in Potion


    And even 20 is below the drinking age in the US. The age of fighting men throughout history would be around the same, the late teens and early twenties being the typical age of the soldiers doing the fighting. It was true today, and in the past. The main difference is some of the leaders of armies in the past, in medieval times, could be very young by our standards.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Ancient Warfare Historian talks about movies depicting Medieval warfare

    No, it is you who missed my point. You invented a term "rhodian catapult" and you really should not be surprised that people did not know what a term you invented meant, especially when the known term polybolos was available. I am not sure why it is believed that the polybolos would have to be fixed and not pivot like other ballistas, but if that was what ancient sources said, then it explains why the polybolos wasn't widely adopted.

    I agree that the bowling ball type defense in the movie wasn't practical or realistic for all the reasons stated, but that was never under dispute. The issue was your use of invented terms then acting as if other people were ignorant that they did not know terms you made up.
    I did not make up any term. My use of catapult was in line with general academic usage describing any bolt or ball throwing twin armed or bow based device in the classical world or even the later single armed devices [I very much see no basis for your claim that catapult is understood as only a one armed device - a point you have not defended (nor you assumption of the royal we)]. I saw no particular reason to bore down into some assumed terminology perfectly which no ancient author would agree on anyway past that. I tossed in Rhodian since of course that is one place that used the devise in question. You know what - rather less famously the Athenians rewarded a person for inventing a ship pike that also had a crescent/hook saw blade on it for cutting rigging and cables. Its mentioned twice one for that fact the Athenian Demos deemed it useful and it deserved both being made and a reward to its creator and than in a fragment of comedy where it was turned into a good joke. And sans digging through I do believe the notes of Casson (I believe Ship and Seamanship and Casson is a sufficient citation but I will dig it up if you do insist) I'll not be telling you the name in Greek the Athenians gave it and seeing as this is not a peer reviewed journal would anyone would expect me too. The point in mentioning it is made sense for a navy they very much did not want to become entangled in a ramming and boarding game (hence the lack of marines of all types) and really wanted tools to shove away as fast as possible after a glancing ram blow. But I would think you would not need the Greek in a passing reference had I made it in a different post.

    If you googled my catapult description 'term' It clearly leads to the description of the device by Philo and indicates it was made by Dionysius of Alexandria while an employee of Rhodes. I really see no reason for issue in this. Again do sit in the wings here just waiting to chide somebody for calling a hoplite's shield a hoplon? Visual evidence certainly says the Bows the Athenians used were a recurved steppe horn and sinew bow. The fact from Thucydides that just a handful of such archers could stave off a ton of javelin armed light troops show that to be true. But umm no ancient historian bothers to make a distinction on that one. The type of bow that is. Your are demanding perfection in terminology were no existed in the classical world and none was needed in my point.
    Last edited by conon394; February 07, 2023 at 07:47 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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