Ukraine and Crimea development thread

[KieKeBooN]

Calling Putin a dictatorial A-hole doesn't quite cut it, the world is quite aware of that already.

[Holger Danske]

Putin obviously wants to outperform his austrian idol. I guess this is just his way of getting back for the US team beating his hockey serfs.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

Damn, I can not even begin to imagine the horror of being invaded and occupied by your compatriots, with whom you want to unite politically. Madness...

[Menelik_I]

horrible pictures from Ukraine. This is genocide.






United States Of Murderland should use nuclear weapons against these horrible terrorrists.

This Russian terrorist has a hard and lock gun pointed the camera ... you can't see, but it is there

The dudes let ing Crimea secede and stop being such hypocrites, remember Kosovo ? it is back with a vengeance.

It has been a precedent since Kosovo that Self-determination trumps Territorial integrity

[Basil II the B.S]

Is it the fault of the Russians, the Ukrainians, the Crimeans ... or Putin?

None of that.
It's the US aggressive foreign policy fault first, then the EU.
Sometime in the future it'll be revealed that the protest were somehow funded and supported by the US/EU, same in Syria.
will have ended already with a failure for the West side, because Ukraine is bankrupt, Europe is on the verge of bankruptcy and can't help them. Some thousands deaths, relations worse than ever complete the scenario.

Disgusting.

[Imperial]

"I blame the US for Russia invading Ukraine. "

[RubiconDecision]

I wonder why I WUB PUGS suddenly stopped posting in this thread only a few hours after the first Russian troops appeared in Crimea.

On an ironical note, the Obama administration has soon done almost everything Sen. Rubio suggested regarding the Ukrainian situation.

We deploy ships all the time, but does it really threaten anyone? War game exercises in the region as it were. But as every Tom Clancy book has even mentioned regarding this stuff, when you get military forces in such proximity running drills and then overflights by a concerned military, then accidents are going to happen when operating at that kind of readiness tempo.

Please no. It's too easy for a mistake to be made with US forces in the Black Sea under the present conditions. There already were some there due to the Winter Olympics.

maybe I'll watch Failsafe today before True Detective comes on.

[GussieFinkNottle]

None of that.
It's the US aggressive foreign policy fault first, then the EU.
Sometime in the future it'll be revealed that the protest were somehow funded and supported by the US/EU, same in Syria.
will have ended already with a failure for the West side, some thousands deaths, relations worse than ever.

Disgusting.

Firstly, I can't believe you actually believe this, but then again your avatar does go some way towards explaining that.
Secondly, you think it's the fault of the protesters (whether Western-backed or not) that their country is now in such a state? Not the government that got into bed with Russia against the popular will, that shot its own people, and not Russia, which invaded another country's sovereign territory with armed troops? Really?

I hope you're a troll.

[geyserik]

The Ukraine gave up its nukes for NATO protection.If this goes hot Nato will have to respond or all their protection treaties will be looked on as a joke.Putin is playing a dangerous game.

[Basil II the B.S]

Firstly, I can't believe you actually believe this, but then again your avatar does go some way towards explaining that.
Secondly, you think it's the fault of the protesters (whether Western-backed or not) that their country is now in such a state? Not the government that got into bed with Russia against the popular will, that shot its own people, and not Russia, which invaded another country's sovereign territory with armed troops? Really?

I hope you're a troll.

Democratically elected government gets overthrown by violence.
Part of the country doesn't support the violent rioters and fights back, another part goes on for a referendum for independence and asks Russia for protection. Russia says yes. People of the independentist region welcome the troops, there is no fight, just cheers and pictures taken to remember the event.


''Hurr durr it's an aggression because I hate Russia no matter what''. Take your prejudice elsewhere.

[Imperial]

another part goes on for a referendum for independence and asks Russia for protection.

When did this happen? Before or after Russia already invaded?

[Seether]

United States of Moronic Idiots and Butchers.

Could be worse. Could be the Russian Doucher-ation

[Vilkas09]

Oh come on, If Crimea wanted to secede they should have waited for the situation to normalise before making the move, this is just Russian opportunism in it's purest form. And I'm pretty sure Russia did more here than just move in the military.

wait till a bunch of nazis with slogans "Death to Russkies" will arrive to Crimea and start killing people?

BBC video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY

First: In any real Democratic country the Government would've stepped down a long time ago, not to mention that they wouldn't start shooting on protesters either. So a democratic procedures argument doesn't work here.

what?
When government offered a peaceful solution to opposition, their fighters started to kill police officers.

Second: Oh boy, if there's unrest in a neighbouring country that's a fine excuse to move in your military 'to keep the peace'. Oh and Russia couldn't possibly have had a hand in escalating the Crimean situation prior to the invasion. Get real here.

they haven't moved any tanks and missles there. Putin haven't declared Crimea a Russia territory. Just few peaceful soldiers patrolling streets.

[adamove]

HEIL PUTIN!

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

I never saw any major news outlet call the Occupy Wall Street protesters Russian backed terrorists, nor have I yet to see anyone call the Catalan protesters terrorists either. Greece is a different story because Golden Dawn legitimately should be considered a terrorist organization, in the same way that Svoboda should in Ukraine.

Golden Dawn should be legitimately considered a terrorist organisation, because they have been accused of, let alone convicted for, 0 (zero) terrorist attacks.

You have a weird way of understanding international diplomacy. Two wrongs a right does not make.

International diplomacy does not revolve about "rights" and "wrongs", but might. Still haven't realised that?
Not that it matters anyway, since you are not anchoring your argument on diplomacy, you are making an argument on justice. And unjust treatment, when applied to all, is more just than selective justice.

Breaking off Crimea is one thing. Invading the rest of Ukraine is a whole different story.

Good thing they haven't invaded the rest of Ukraine then.

Saying, "well you know, we were the majority 650 years ago before you guys took over", is a piss poor excuse to deport the entire Tatar population and replace it with ethnic Russians.

But a solid argument on why the Russians have a much more solid historical right to Crimea. By right of conquest did the Tatars settle and by right of conquest they were evicted. Not to mention that they have been allowed to return since the fall of the Soviet Union and they constitute a minority today.

Danzig, which Hitler used as his justification for war with Poland, was majority German.

But he didn't restrict himself to Danzig, he waged war on the whole of Poland. So, unless Putin invades the whole of Ukraine, bad analogy.

From your own wikipedia article:



From the article on Sudeten Germans: Czech districts with 50% or more ethnic German populationin 1930

That shows the number of seats German and German-Hungarian parties gained in the Chamber of Deputies, not districts with majority German population.

The ethnographic census, which counts actual people, not MPs, and classifies them on the basis of ethnicity, proves that the Germans constituted a minority in all districts of Czechoslovakia: Bohemia, Moravia, Silesia, Slovakia and Ruthenia.

It's not worth going to war over, but calling out Putin as the dictatorial A-hole he is, definitely.

And? Why do you care? That's the Russians' problem. Assuming they do see it as problem.

[Seether]

''Hurr durr it's an aggression because I hate Russia no matter what''. Take your prejudice elsewhere.

Hurr durr... US criticizing Russia for having troops in Crimea, while at the same time militarily occupying Iraq is ing hilarious.

Take your own advice, bud.

[Aanker]

We deploy ships all the time, but does it really threaten anyone? War game exercises in the region as it were. But as every Tom Clancy book has even mentioned regarding this stuff, when you get military forces in such proximity running drills and then overflights by a concerned military, then accidents are going to happen when operating at that kind of readiness tempo.

Please no. It's too easy for a mistake to be made with US forces in the Black Sea under the present conditions. There already were some there due to the Winter Olympics.

maybe I'll watch Failsafe today before True Detective comes on.

I think there were US warships in the Black Sea during the 2008 Georgian War, that said I was mostly joking and it remains to be seen whether any ship is actually going there now (I won't say "unlikely" though). I honestly don't think the Russian Black Sea fleet is even in a position where it could cause an accident, and if there ever was one, it would probably be caused by a rusty missile going off unexpectedly inside one of their ships...

[KieKeBooN]

Democratically elected government gets overthrown by violence.

Democraticly elected government. The democratic aspect of a fair election has been questioned, and the last few months of protesting clearly showed that the democratic support of the government has 'waned' somewhat. In any real democratic country facing protests that size the government would've stepped down, but not here. Your democracy argument is invalid.

Part of the country doesn't support the violent rioters and fights back, another part goes on for a referendum for independence and asks Russia for protection. Russia says yes. People of the independentist region welcome the troops, there is no fight, just cheers and pictures taken to remember the event.

Going along with your Democracy argument, the right move for Crimea would be to wait to the mess to clear up and then move for independence in a more stable situation. But no, their timing was purely opportunistic as in strike when Ukraine is weak. It screams Russia was involved from the get-go and stirred the pot to provoke the Crimeans, just like the EU may or may not have had dealings with protesters in Kiev. It makes perfect sense that Russia pulled of a clkassic agent-provocateur action after realising that they had lost their allies in Kiev and were in fact losing out against the EU.

At any rate, even if you're welcomed you have no right to park your armies in foreign territory especially without any formal warning. And there were also people welcoming American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq...

[Basil II the B.S]

When did this happen? Before or after Russia already invaded?

Uh? They announced a referendum 3 days ago.

[Seether]

they haven't moved any tanks and missles there. Putin haven't declared Crimea a Russia territory.

Don't forget helicopters, APCs, and artillery.

Just few peaceful soldiers patrolling streets.

And surrounding Ukrainian military installations with said "peaceful" soldiers and equipment, disallowing anyone/anything from leaving or entering.