[Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia,Serbia, Anciliaries and titles.

[AnthoniusII]

Ok we can work with the finall list more.
The finall list will be yours to deside.

[gogo t]

Well Komits in my opinion can be a military rank, but onely if in the same time it's governor too.

[AnthoniusII]

Everyone that has some info and reference pictures or drawings [Exept Osprey ones] please post them here:
Nottice: This topic aims to gather all possible info and guide material to help our creators to an accurate-as possible- Serbian faction and all its details.
This must NOT ne a knowlege contest. Just write what you know and if possible add sources too.
Remember: The mod has a specific time frame that is 872-1071.
That means that not all info may fit to our mod.
We thank you all in advance:
The TGC Fellowship.

[Bagatyr]

Here are some materials about serbian roster 9-10 century

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from Son of Fire :

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Ok… this is my understanding from the books, and the discussions had...


In the “Dark Ages”… Serbs and Croats were still fairly similar.
Though as time progressed, the Croats had a larger Western European (due to Hungary and Venice)influence, while the Serbs had a larger Byzantine influence. Though the Serbian Coastal Duchies still had a significant Western influence due to Venice, as did the Northern regions…
The smaller Slavic tribes, as well as indigenous one was either becoming absorbed by, or affiliated with the larger more powerful Serbs and Croats… though at this point, there are still some varying degrees, but most have already been fully assimilated (by 920 is it?).

The core of the military was still the military retinue of the Zupans or Knez… which is though never given a name in South Slavic sources, can be assumed to be Druzina (Praetorians). These would be backed by a levy.
The bow was being used quite a bit by this point, with lots of archers fielded, though the javelin still had a place… as well as the Slav axe… though now the sword was no long a weapon only for the elite warriors, becoming more common place.

Heath states that the Druzina fought with Avar and Alan influence, that being sword (sabre) bow and lance.
This could be entirely possible… though I would state that I believe that the bow was secondary to the lance in warfare among them… as it seems though there is reference to Serbs using bows, it seems the preferred the lance, and kept the bow for supplementary combat. And as for the sabre… I think that Serbs favoured the straight doubled edged sword over the sabre… we know they used sabres later on with certainty, and they resembled the Byzantine paramerion… but at this earlier point… I can’t really say for sure… I would think they are a bit rarer…
Armour would be a mail corselet, or perhaps some lamellar. And of course, a shield.
But again, there was no uniform appearance… the better and more affluent the warrior, the better his kit.

The infantry would have started to be gathering a decent kit by this point… though there would still be large portions without armour. But I doubt that all would be un-armoured at this point…
Spears and other polearms, large shields, bows, javelins, knives and axes would be the most common weapons… but the more affluent warriors would have a corselet and helm with a sword possibly.

They seemed to excel at night fighting and ambushes, though at this later period, would still place armies on a field… usually drawn into 3 battles. With archers in the fore, only to retreat behind the cavalry once things got hairy…

*They also had access to siege technology at this point as well...

As you see generaly the early serbs are mostly like all old slavs with some byzantine and bulgarian influence - lamellar armor for their best troops .So mostly old slavic but their best troops could have adopted some byzantine elements .

[phoenix[illusion]]

Ok, let's start
Croats and Serbs, by their units, warfare, culture in that centuries are the same. but they differ in one thing, that are the foreign culture that both of these tribes took. as croats lived next to franks, western countries, norman-like culture influenced their warfare, which i can see you've done in the mod, by making croat horse units, which look like normans. as serbs were closer to east, especially byzantium, they took more romano-bulgaro look.

first, similarities
as many other slavs, serbs wore white clothes. it's not just ordinary assumption, jirecek wrote about that. as serbian history is mostly based on researches of jirecek, we can trust him on this one. he says that serbs wore white cloths with colorful laces, bordures, which, as he said in that time, serbs still wear as folk clothes, as national costume. not only that, but also on frescoes from serbian churches, villagers, ordinary folk are represented as people in white. so, as croat infantry, archers and other croatian "levy/serf/infantry" units, serbs can have same units. same roster can be used for them, so as units, cause they differ none. infantry units mostly had spears, axes, javelin, but in serbia, bows were very common weapons (several times serbs were recorded as archers). were they composite in that times or not, i can't tell. but it's simple, whatever you've done with croat infantry do it with serbian.

now differences
serbs lived next to bulgarians and byzies. they were in conctact and war with both of the faction. as they were there for several centuries, and mod starts in 9th, they already had some influence of those two factions. and to mention that serbs were baptized in 9th century, in years when mod start. probably it was the times when byz culturally influence was the strongest, not only in faith, but in churches, fashion, architecture, and warfare too. so, as croats took western influence, serbs took eastern. these difference mainly affects chieftains, noblemen, cavalry and other high rank men. there is one pic of slav knyaz from i think 9th or 10th century, but i can honestly say that serbs almost never wore whole chainmail till 14th century, and that that full chainmailed unit can't be prescribed to serbs, cause it is polish slav, who was in contact with western influence. for serbs, there are no sources how did they wore chainmail, and serbian historian are not interested in this period (we talk more about period of nemanjic), but from later periods we can assume that serbs never wore full hauberk, earliest pics shows serbs in haubergeon (short-hauberk) which is just as same as byzantines wore. so,as for those units, higher ranked, i want you to look at the armor which romans wore in that time (not helmets, boots and shield, only body armor) and copy it to serbs. same as for lammelar armor, serbs wore it in later sources in same quantity as chainmail. and it was also byzantine style, only to the hips. to understand it better, here's pics of some romans (byzies)

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these pics are only for body armor. as for boots, use same as you used for croats. as for helmets, serbs wore slav helmets, and it is proven by later frescoes which depict slavic helmets even in 14th century, although they were rare in that period. beside slavic helmet with pin, also round slavic and ordinary round helmet was used. something like this (first picture only number 1, 4 and 5)

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as for the shields, ordinary slavic were used. here are some from belgrade museum

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http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs/...5_DSC00445.jpg
http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs/...9_DSC00451.jpg

EDIT: as for roster, there is not much sources to work with. i suggest normal slav roster (axemen, spearmen, cav men etc.). as for units and upgrades, i gave you idea for making them. ordinary people simple units, cav armed with little haubergs and lammelar (roman style) but slavic style helmets and shields). other is imagination.

[AnthoniusII]

Thank you both...Your sugestions and preferences are close to our thoughts.
Croats : influences: Slavic 45%, Frankish/west european 45%, Romano/Bulgarian 10%.
Serbians :influences: Slavic 50% ,Roman 40% ,rest 10%
Now its clear why Serbians were easier to be part of the Roman armies (battle of Sirmion ) than other nations.
We will continue to gather info...
We are always open to knowlege.
Thank you again my friends.

[SpyrosM91]

Logothetes tou Genikou was the same as the modern minister of domestic afairs including finance afairs and law enforcement. All Preators reported to him.

where did you find this??? i have never heard about that in all my books and sources...

I found them in Taktika of Leon VI the wise.
Read "Taktika" from our Nikephorean peview Part I in CBUR.
I think Leon knew better how he called his empire's officials.

i just finished reading the Tactica of Leo, and i haven't found a single reference to the "Logothetes tou Genikou"...

[phoenix[illusion]]

Thank you both...Your sugestions and preferences are close to our thoughts.
Croats : influences: Slavic 45%, Frankish/west european 45%, Romano/Bulgarian 10%.
Serbians :influences: Slavic 50% ,Roman 40% ,rest 10%
Now its clear why Serbians were easier to be part of the Roman armies (battle of Sirmion ) than other nations.
We will continue to gather info...
We are always open to knowlege.
Thank you again my friends.

just like that. slavic 50% ,roman 40% ,rest 10%are just good percentage for serbian army.
not only in battle of sirmium, but also in battle agains normans in durazzo in 1081, and many others
in period of this mod, serbia was free state. by treaty with byzantium, serbia was foederati state, with full indenpendance, but with obligation to aid byz empire if it is attacked, and also alliance. although, this obligation was many times disobeyed. it could be good for mod, if you play with serbia, that you have obligation to aid byz empire if it is attacked in mod. vassalship would not be proper, since serbia was annexed in byz empire later times, and been vassal state (but other state rises, duklja) until nemanjic. someone made wiki pages about it, it's quite new i can say

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princip...%28medieval%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catepanate_of_Ras
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_of_Sirmium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duklja
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_P...lity_of_Serbia

[The Despondent Mind]

One slightly of topic question .
Why did the nobility used swords when axes ,maces (and almost every weapon as i understood ) where more effective against armor ( or not ? )

[phoenix[illusion]]

One slightly of topic question .
Why did the nobility used swords when axes ,maces (and almost every weapon as i understood ) where more effective against armor ( or not ? )

oh, you remind me on weapons, i haven't wrote about them
as for weapons, serbs used spears, bows, axes, javelins, maces. swords were rare, only some people had it, they come in the later ages of medieval period. of better weapon serbs used flanged maces, and it was restricted only on nobility or better soldiers. that's no surprise since byzantine generals used to use flanged maces, so as in middle east and russia. but question is when did serbs started using maces. that's for you (TGC team) to conclude. but i'm sure that serbs started using swords from about 11th-12th century (before that, swors were restricted to nobility).

as for axes and maces, i don't think that axes were stronger than swords, cause axes were usually weapons of infantry and lower class (note: usually). as for maces, i can say i would rather prefer mace over sword, and it was preferred on balkans by byz emperors, generals as i know, cause many of them wore maces rather than swords, and as i wrote earlier in this text, middle eastern warriors and russians preferred maces over swords. western armies used sword rather than mace cause they adopted mace quite later, and sword became weapon of noblemen. swords show prestige, wealth and rank, so that's why western nobles used it. by the time, same was adopted on balkans in high and late middle ages. so, there is no superpower of sword over mace, but sword could be highly decorated and different, which became symbol of nobility.

EDIT: as for this period, i don't think that maces exist (first byz maces are from early 10th century as i know), so for serbs, slavic swords could be good for nobility and druzina. but as i said, by the time, slavic sword were less in use, mace was more, and by western influence swords were taken back in high and late middle ages.

[AnthoniusII]

Axes and maces...


Roman ellite used both...

Axe is simlier to produse and much cheaper. Mace is more compilcated to produse and there for much more expensive.
But we must separate war clubs from maces.
A wooden club with iron nails on it is a war club but nota mace with the restricted sence of the term.
Both do the same job though as well as axes too...

Its easier to use a "club" no matter if this is a real mace or not than a sword that requires training.
Nobles of all races could afford swords provided as "gifts" or spoils of war.
It would be very strange Serbs (despite the fact that as slavs prefaired axes and javelins as Leo VI describes) that could not have access to at least cheaper roman swords as early versions of paramoirions were.
Serbia and all balkans before the slavic settlement at 6th century had some very famous arsenalls that prodused every kind of weapon Romans used. Trade could easily keep those workshops fanctional and capable to produse atleast simple and cheap swords.
But that is a thought of mine and needs more research.

[neoptolemos]

The Roman maces were so deadly and effective that were feared by many of the empire's enemies, as the sources indicate.
Roman axes, were variously shaped reflecting the influences from both European and non European influences.

[NikeBG]

One slightly of topic question .
Why did the nobility used swords when axes ,maces (and almost every weapon as i understood ) where more effective against armor ( or not ? )

I can't speak which is better against armour (though I'd say it depends on the kind of armour, as well on the fact that swords can pierce, while axes and maces can't), but one of the best advantages of the sword is that you can use it to parry. Furthermore, it's more... hmm, "technical", if I may call it so (can't really find the right word), while the axe is more brutal and thus its fighting style is much simpler (and you can lose your ground more easily with it). In some cases, swords are also more useful for fighting in tight formations (though that pretty much depends on the swords and the specific cases). But that's mostly my guesswork, since I've only used an axe (for chopping wood, of course), not a sword.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Nike is absolutely correct. The sword is a lot more versatile as a weapon than a mace or an axe. Not only can you parry with it, but it is also a faster weapon as a well made sword is usually under 1 kg in weight outside of the scabbard. You can also stab and use both edges (or the back edge on sabres), so there are more effective moves with a sword than with an axe, mace or flail (kisten in Bulgarian). A sword, especially a palash (paramoirion) or sabre also had certain advantages for mounted warriors, who could simply stretch it out and use the horse's momentum to deliver some pretty nasty slices to infantrymen.

Of course, to be used effectively, the sword requires sophisticated training in its usage, and in certain cases, where blunt force trauma is preferred due to a higher level of armored defense, such as a heavy cavalry melee, maces and axes were likely a better option. Mounted noblemen of the mod geographic and time on both sides usually had both a sword and a mace or axe for close combat.

[One-Eye]

your mod looks very promissing and intersting for me. I like Dark Age era and you have Great Moravia as faction

I am from Bratislava - Brezalauspurc (Devin castle is part of Bratislava).

interestnig links
http://www.ped.muni.cz/warts/dvkultu...lka_morava.pdf

have you any idea with Kocel? and with his demense? he was son of Pribina, duke of Nitrava before Mojmir I connected Nitrava to Morava in 833 AD. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koce%C4%BE

here are some pictures from architecture. later I will post map of Great Moravia.

[absinthia]

I am from Bratislava - Brezalauspurc (Devin castle is part of Bratislava).

have you any idea with Kocel? and with his demense? he was son of Pribina, duke of Nitrava before Mojmir I connected Nitrava to Morava in 833 AD. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koce%C4%BE

and Bratislava is on our campaign map.

we have no ideas for Kockel, i think he would be difficult to use in any meaningful way.
being quite old at the campaign start, ousted from Greater Moravia and no heirs(that i know of). if his family line could be used for for a dynasty under Moravia or Franks then it would be interesting.

[One-Eye]

and Bratislava is on our campaign map.

this is great. the second mod with "my" town

we have no ideas for Kockel, i think he would be difficult to use in any meaningful way.
being quite old at the campaign start, ousted from Greater Moravia and no heirs(that i know of). if his family line could be used for for a dynasty under Moravia or Franks then it would be interesting.

I also did not found any of Kocel´s children... and after his death in 876 was Pannonian principality again connected to East Frankish Empire.

Methodius was Archbiskup for Great Moravia and Pannonia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius

some pictures and maps about expanding of Great Moravia (sorry for errors in translations).

[Hrobatos]

there isnt much to add here about roster, basicly combine levy units from Croat roster with Byzantine roster and you can finish Serbs quite quick

[Martin von Carstein]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...2#post10226532

I thought, and here let no harm. It's more western Slavs, findings from the Polish territories and Polabians, but the term is correct, and close to Moravia, so maybe ...
Always an original, historical findings.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I found (thanks to friendly help, thank you for that.: D) some swords, spears and spear tips, and even a photo of one of Obotrites shields. This archaeological finds from the region of the western Polish, Pomeranian and Polabians lands. So I put.

Obotrites shields, Tribe: Wiereci.
Wooden Umbo.


Spear:












Javelin:



Swords















































Arrow:



Source:
http://znaleziska.org/wiki/index.php/Kategoria:X_wiek

[nemr]

AnthoniusII

please wait for me these days , because I collect some books discuss ranks and titles that used in islamic kingdoms

thanks for your invitation in arabic language thread to support your promising mod