Immigration to the US and Europe in Historical and Social Context

[Heathen Hammer]

China's demographics are set to decline and their one child policy has had disastrous effects. Population growth is one of the biggest sources of economic growth. I'm not sure who Big Brother is referring to. There are significant differences between forms of government, not to mention how they work in practice. Your government in Canada is a good example of a country that takes good care of its environment. You're confusing with not being exceptional, with being bad. Canada has a lot of places where they can do better, or a lot better, like every other country on Earth.

That policy was perceived as necessity. There is little evidence that population growth leads to economic growth - overpopulated countries typically have low living standards.
Our government here in Canada is a perfect example of a government who claims to take good care of environment - - all while extensively using private jets and doing other things that do way more damage.
The point is that it is best to give as little power to one's government as possible - hence why we need to cool our heads before we give our government any additional powers on environmental issues.

[Mithradates]

It’s interesting that the country of origin would matter. Assimilation is probably easier between neighboring countries than more distant ones. Similar controversy over stuff like this is what I’m really trying to understand.

Thats EU politics, giving the title of "Protecting the European way of life" to the guy who will be overseeing migration policy is a dog-whistle to the populists. Marine Le Pen has already endorsed it as an “ideological victory”.

That's about as insensitive as you can get about Polish and Ukranian cultures. Though yes, they are more similar than Poles and Swedes. Great.

Saying that two cultures are similar is "insensitive as you can get"?

The only one I see obsessing about birth rates are right-wing pundits who are concerned with being "replaced" or having share of minorities grown.

Here you go Germany’s desperate need for immigrants

Pretty sure you live in a Socialist country as do the countries that take in the most refugees.

None of the EU countries is Socialist.

[Love Mountain]

That policy was perceived as necessity. There is little evidence that population growth leads to economic growth - overpopulated countries typically have low living standards.
Our government here in Canada is a perfect example of a government who claims to take good care of environment - - all while extensively using private jets and doing other things that do way more damage.
The point is that it is best to give as little power to one's government as possible - hence why we need to cool our heads before we give our government any additional powers on environmental issues.

There are only four sources for economic growth.

1) Human resources
2) Capital resources
3) Natural resources
4) Technology

What do you think happens to the first one when the population increases?

Saying that two cultures are similar is "insensitive as you can get"?

I do find it amusing, the conception that a million Ukrainian workers in Poland is apparently not an issue, but a million "very different people" in Sweden apparently is.

Here you go Germany’s desperate need for immigrants

Here, for you. Or perhaps, this one? Sorry, I'm

None of the EU countries is Socialist.

Sure, but then again you're neither a democracy or capitalist. You really gonna play this semantics game?

[Mithradates]

I do find it amusing, the conception that a million Ukrainian workers in Poland is apparently not an issue, but a million "very different people" in Sweden apparently is.

Well, apparently these are the facts.
If instead of Poland those million ukrainians would move to Pakistan or Iraq, what do you think, how would that turn out for them?
You know, when they would start building their churches next to the local mosques, building some pig-farms, pubs, night clubs etc would you expect the same results?
Is it really that amusing that people from similar cultures get along better?

Here, for you. Or perhaps, this one? Sorry, I'm

I know about those.
The argument that we need immigration because of the economic problems caused by the low birthrates is a pro-migration argument, its an argument for migration.
Also there are those who argue against migration because of the very same low birthrate problem, they see the possible demographic change as a bad thing.
Two different arguments about the same thing.

Sure, but then again you're neither a democracy or capitalist. You really gonna play this semantics game?

I dont believe that Im the one who is playing a semantics game here.

[Muizer]

The different challenges you mention between “gateway” countries and settlement countries is precisely what I’m talking about when I say that maintenance of territorial integrity is a key component of any attempt by the EU to successfully create a super-national structure. The Schengen Area is a great idea economically. Meanwhile, backlash against the EU has lately centered on immigration and economic concerns as a result. As I said, the US has structures in place to deal with millions of people trying to get in by land, air and sea. Is it any wonder the far right in Europe has had success mostly by promising national border security and immigration enforcement that the EU lacks by comparison?

Not sure if this is your point, but it sounds like your take on the issue is that given the EU has failed, national border security is a logical fallback. That's the world upside down though. The reality is that the EU member states have been reluctant to take the steps towards federalization that would make it possible for the EU to comprehensively tackle migration. What is happening is not the result of the EU institutions failing the nation states but of nation states failing to work together. And generally the blame for that falls on thepart of the politial spectrum and the countries that have taken the position that the EU should be a trading block only, with no federal aspirations. As to why the populist right choose to align themselves with these forces I really can't give a reasoned answer, because I don't think there is one.

I’m also curious as to why discussion of the degree to which these gates should be opened or closed has taken on a political context in Europe that is similarly moralistic to the one in the US. The proverbial anti-immigration platform in Europe is centered on border security and immigration enforcement as far as I know, and its adoption on the political right wing is more a consequence of the left and center’s relative aversion to it than anything else. I’m less clear on what that aversion is supposed to be based on.

I can't speak for everyone, but IMHO in my country there's a disconnect where one side argues "the adverse effects of immigration are being down-played in order not to do anything about it. 'They' could if they wanted to" and the other argues "we already do what we think is acceptable from a humanitarian perspective, going on about it as if there are other options can only fuel some really nasty sentiments". Thing is, more could be done, but it would indeed require a strong federal government. So there you have the paradoxical situation that the left supports the strategy that could deliver the right's wishes and the right is opposing it.

It’s interesting that the country of origin would matter. Assimilation is probably easier between neighboring countries than more distant ones. Similar controversy over stuff like this is what I’m really trying to understand.

Do you think the US government should be tasked with preserving "the American way of life"?

[Love Mountain]

Well, apparently these are the facts.
If instead of Poland those million ukrainians would move to Pakistan or Iraq, what do you think, how would that turn out for them?
You know, when they would start building their churches next to the local mosques, building some pig-farms, pubs, night clubs etc would you expect the same results?
Is it really that amusing that people from similar cultures get along better?

Well apparently not.



Xenophobia and racism isn't reserved only for those who are not "culturally similar". On the contrary, anti-Ukrainian sentiment, even in countries like Russia (who are quite literally their cultural brothers), is fierce. Quite frankly, I find this whole mental exercise pointless. If you're going to be anti-migrant, don't pick and choose. The double standard you're demonstrating now, is simply another example of the folly of buying into any of this rhetoric.

I know about those.
The argument that we need immigration because of the economic problems caused by the low birthrates is a pro-migration argument, its an argument for migration.
Also there are those who argue against migration because of the very same low birthrate problem, they see the possible demographic change as a bad thing.
Two different arguments about the same thing.

Economists won't really tell you that's a prescription. It certainly can be, but countries like Japan or Poland, who face a demographic crisis can close off their borders. They will simply have to find other ways of addressing the negative effects of a demographic decline. Well, I suppose as a member of the EU Poland can't really close off their borders, but perhaps they should've thought of that before entering it...

I dont believe that Im the one who is playing a semantics game here.

If you're gonna claim that no country in the EU can be described as Socialist, you certainly are. Not that any of this matters, Europe has been going towards the right in the last few decades. Not that this is wrong, I for one still believe that Europeans constrain their economies far too much and contribute towards an uneven economic playing field.

[Mithradates]

Well apparently not.

Oh wow, vandalism and graffiti, okay lol so its not 100,00% perfect therefore it is just as bad as all the other issues, right?
Its not comparable but okay, so on a scale of 1 to 10 how bad is the ukrainian "issue" in Poland?

Xenophobia and racism isn't reserved only for those who are not "culturally similar". On the contrary, anti-Ukrainian sentiment, even in countries like Russia (who are quite literally their cultural brothers), is fierce. Quite frankly, I find this whole mental exercise pointless. If you're going to be anti-migrant, don't pick and choose. The double standard you're demonstrating now, is simply another example of the folly of buying into any of this rhetoric.

Oh, maybe I gave the impression that I believe that cultural similarity solves all the issues, all the time? No it doesnt, but I do believe that it solves issues much more frequently then cultural difference for example.
Anyway, you may offer examples of large number of peoples in Europe, from very different cultures(MENA), getting along just as good as the Poles and the Ukrainians do, just to show that cultural similarity doesnt matter.

Economists won't really tell you that's a prescription. It certainly can be, but countries like Japan or Poland, who face a demographic crisis can close off their borders. They will simply have to find other ways of addressing the negative effects of a demographic decline. Well, I suppose as a member of the EU Poland can't really close off their borders, but perhaps they should've thought of that before entering it...

Doesnt sound like that Poland wants to close the border, you know, the million ukrainians...

If you're gonna claim that no country in the EU can be described as Socialist, you certainly are. Not that any of this matters, Europe has been going towards the right in the last few decades. Not that this is wrong, I for one still believe that Europeans constrain their economies far too much and contribute towards an uneven economic playing field.

So, which EU country is Socialist?

[Lord Thesaurian]

Thats EU politics, giving the title of "Protecting the European way of life" to the guy who will be overseeing migration policy is a dog-whistle to the populists. Marine Le Pen has already endorsed it as an “ideological victory”

Naturally. I suppose a different title could be arranged, but at the same time, it doesn’t really make sense that the concept of a “European way of life” should be monopolized by any particular political ideology. One would think it’s a mandate inherent to the job of managing EU migration policy. If there is no such thing as a European identity, then there are certainly German, French, British, Italian identities which will continue to be highlighted by the comparative weakness of the pan-European one.

Not sure if this is your point, but it sounds like your take on the issue is that given the EU has failed, national border security is a logical fallback. That's the world upside down though. The reality is that the EU member states have been reluctant to take the steps towards federalization that would make it possible for the EU to comprehensively tackle migration. What is happening is not the result of the EU institutions failing the nation states but of nation states failing to work together. And generally the blame for that falls on thepart of the politial spectrum and the countries that have taken the position that the EU should be a trading block only, with no federal aspirations. As to why the populist right choose to align themselves with these forces I really can't give a reasoned answer, because I don't think there is one.


I can't speak for everyone, but IMHO in my country there's a disconnect where one side argues "the adverse effects of immigration are being down-played in ordernot to do anything about it. 'They' could if they wanted to" and the other argues "we already do what we think is acceptable from a humanitarian perspective, going on about it as if there are other options can only fuel some really nasty sentiments". Thing is, more couldbe done, but it would indeed require a strong federal government. So there you have the paradoxical situation that the left supports the strategy that could deliver the right's wishes and the right is opposing it.

I do think it’s a fool’s errand, tragic, even, to try and federalize millennia-old nations and national identities. At the same time, economic integration is a positive step toward promoting growth and cooperation, especially to help Europe compete against the US and China. Given that the EU trading bloc has defined borders, determining who or how many people are allowed to cross that border for the purposes of settlement seems to be well within the apolitical mandate of preserving the bloc’s cohesion and integrity. If not, then the obligation of member states to do so will necessarily come at the expense of economic integration.

Do you think the US government should be tasked with preserving "the American way of life"?

In a way, the federal government is explicitly required to do just that. Federal oaths of office include affirmations of the duty to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution. American identity is predicated on the Constitution and our social and political institutions which are based on specific political freedoms and the rule of law. It’s a fundamentally different question from the preservation of any other nation or way of life. If it were possible for there to be a “blood and soil” element to American identity, then I would consider its preservation, protection and defense to be a natural component of the government’s obligation to its citizens. There is no such element in American identity, of course. There is, however, in that of European countries.

[Heathen Hammer]

There are only four sources for economic growth.

1) Human resources
2) Capital resources
3) Natural resources
4) Technology

What do you think happens to the first one when the population increases?

Increase of availability of the other 3, of all things, which is preferable when there is overabundance of the first one.

I do find it amusing, the conception that a million Ukrainian workers in Poland is apparently not an issue, but a million "very different people" in Sweden apparently is.

Cultural differences are a significant factor.

[Love Mountain]

Oh wow, vandalism and graffiti, okay lol so its not 100,00% perfect therefore it is just as bad as all the other issues, right?
Its not comparable but okay, so on a scale of 1 to 10 how bad is the ukrainian "issue" in Poland?

I'm wondering why you're ignoring the assaults? Just to remind you, what you originally said was,

"Depends on the country, for example in Poland they have more than a million ukrainian workers but their culture/language is similar so their presence wont change the country, it works out well."

I latched on to that because I see, what is in my opinion, a ridiculous double standard. I imagine that a million brown people in Poland would be catastrophic, yet a million Ukrainian people is not just manageable, but "works out well". I posted the earlier picture to emphasize that Ukrainians are resented, maybe not quite as fiercely as brown people, but nevertheless resented. And look, if you want to make an anti-immigration argument, by all means. I realize I won't change anyone's mind here no matter how rational I am with debate. But, it appears to me that this isn't really an issue with migration, just an issue with poor brown people coming to Europe. I just wish you'd all say what you actually think out loud. Though it is also funny that the evidence suggests that anti-migration Europeans are just as likely to pounce on each other after the Brown people are gone.

Oh, maybe I gave the impression that I believe that cultural similarity solves all the issues, all the time? No it doesnt, but I do believe that it solves issues much more frequently then cultural difference for example.
Anyway, you may offer examples of large number of peoples in Europe, from very different cultures(MENA), getting along just as good as the Poles and the Ukrainians do, just to show that cultural similarity doesnt matter.

Yeah I don't think it does. What I think of in particular, are the issues between Belgian Flanders and Wallonia. Catalan separatism, or the ongoing discrimination of the Roma people. Take the Roma people for example, despite their "cultural affinity" being closest to Easter Europe, I'm pretty sure Eastern Europe is the region that treats them by far the worst. In my opinion, ethnic conflict is solved, not by cultural affinity, but by civic virtues. Then again, I am an American. Perhaps that's too idealistic for me *cough* Switzerland *cough*.

Doesnt sound like that Poland wants to close the border, you know, the million ukrainians...

Well I would say the same about Germany and Sweden, but I think you'd argue that the government is forcing policies that no German or Swede wants. What's the difference with Poland?

So, which EU country is Socialist?

Sweden, Germany, France, UK has the most Socialist healthcare sector out of any country in Europe. Majority of European countries are Communist hellholes compared to free America. So, what's the issue there?

[Love Mountain]

Increase of availability of the other 3, of all things, which is preferable when there is overabundance of the first one.

You didn't answer the question. Or are you actually admitting that this portion,

"There is little evidence that population growth leads to economic growth"

was wrong?

Cultural differences are a significant factor.

What is this based on?

[Aexodus]

My National Health Service is not socialist, it is nationalised and was proposed by conservatives, designed by Liberals, and implemented by Labour. It has some socialist influences, but it’s not the same as what you would have seen in Russia.

[Love Mountain]

My National Health Service is not socialist, it is nationalised and was proposed by conservatives, designed by Liberals, and implemented by Labour. It has some socialist influences, but it’s not the same as what you would have seen in Russia.

What does "nationalised" mean in this context? You can describe Beveridge as a liberal if you want. In the same way that we can claim that Cuba and Venezuela are not "real socialists" either. I don't think any of that is relevant. At the end of the day the NHS is by far the most "socialized" out of all healthcare systems in Europe. And I'm not sure why you're bringing up Russia. Healthcare in Russia is funded mainly by employers and municipalities. The federal government represents a fairly small portion of healthcare funding in Russia. This is in stark contrast to NHS, where the majority of funding comes directly out of the government's pocket.

[Aexodus]

I was referring to when Russia was socialist.

[Cope]

I was referring to when Russia was socialist.

Don't you know that real socialism has never been tried?

[Ludicus]

At the end... NHS, where the majority of funding comes directly out of the government's pocket.

Exactly.
*Raises a hand*. As is the case here: there is a political consensus from all parties in the parliament that the health system is based on a universal, general and tendentiously free at point of delivery NHS. There is also a consensus on the need to expand the network of primary health care provision and long-term care.
We need to improve even more, so, for the next year, our centre-left Socialist (PS) government promises more investment in Public Services, such as the NHS and public transports. Elections are around the corner ( October 6) Portugal - POLITICO the Socialist Party of Portugal has a strong lead. And, as you can see, Portugal's bright outlook offers Europe some hope | Financial Times

So, why is the word "socialism" still an anathema in the US? my American friends, in case Sanders-or Warren- gets elected President, the world will be a better place to live.

The WHO ranking of the world's systems, top 12. Neither Canada (30) nor the USA (37) ranks in the top 25.
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
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18 United Kingdom
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To sum up, the N.H. Services in Europe are guided by the principles of universal coverage, solidarity, human dignity, and health.

The French NHS is the best in the world, and obviously provides an excellent universal cover for every citizen, irrespective of wealth, age or social status.
Italy's healthcare system isn't perfect, but is great. Very, very good.
Spain has an excellent NHS, around 90% of Spaniards use the public healthcare system.
Austria has also one of the best healthcare systems in the world. Virtually all individuals receive publicly funded care.
Idem for Norway founded on the principles of universal access, decentralization and free choice of provider.
In the UK, the NHS is also very good, but has been plagued by cuts/ funding problems. Impact of Brexit on the healthcare and medical sector - Government.
However, there is 2019 NHS Long Term Plan
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Warning : Don't let Trump get his hands on the UK National Health Service!

[Heathen Hammer]

You didn't answer the question. Or are you actually admitting that this portion,

"There is little evidence that population growth leads to economic growth"

was wrong?

Again, what's the evidence that it in by itself does? Why are overpopulated countries not known for economic growth? As it was pointed out, only large corporations and such would benefit from overpopulation.

What is this based on?

Lack of evidence of culturally foreign immigrants assimilating - and overbearing examples of history where immigration of culturally foreign demographics led to disintegration of state and society.

[Mithradates]

Naturally. I suppose a different title could be arranged, but at the same time, it doesn’t really make sense that the concept of a “European way of life” should be monopolized by any particular political ideology. One would think it’s a mandate inherent to the job of managing EU migration policy. If there is no such thing as a European identity, then there are certainly German, French, British, Italian identities which will continue to be highlighted by the comparative weakness of the pan-European one. .

I think "Protecting the European way of life" has the similar effect in Europe as the "Make America Great Again" slogan has in the US, I guess every american would like to see his country becoming great yet many still reject the slogan because it represents people/politics they dont like.

I'm wondering why you're ignoring the assaults?

You went through the trouble to screenshot the article, to upload the image and to link that... so I checked the original article to find out that the assault is a 13 years old story with unknown attackers, thats why Im ignoring it.

Im wondering why are you ignoring this: "so on a scale of 1 to 10 how bad is the ukrainian "issue" in Poland?"

or this: "If instead of Poland those million ukrainians would move to Pakistan or Iraq, what do you think, how would that turn out for them?
You know, when they would start building their churches next to the local mosques, building some pig-farms, pubs, night clubs etc would you expect the same results?"

or this: "you may offer examples of large number of peoples in Europe, from very different cultures(MENA), getting along just as good as the Poles and the Ukrainians do"

Just to remind you, what you originally said was,

"Depends on the country, for example in Poland they have more than a million ukrainian workers but their culture/language is similar so their presence wont change the country, it works out well."

I latched on to that because I see, what is in my opinion, a ridiculous double standard. I imagine that a million brown people in Poland would be catastrophic, yet a million Ukrainian people is not just manageable, but "works out well". I posted the earlier picture to emphasize that Ukrainians are resented, maybe not quite as fiercely as brown people, but nevertheless resented. And look, if you want to make an anti-immigration argument, by all means. I realize I won't change anyone's mind here no matter how rational I am with debate. But, it appears to me that this isn't really an issue with migration, just an issue with poor brown people coming to Europe. I just wish you'd all say what you actually think out loud. Though it is also funny that the evidence suggests that anti-migration Europeans are just as likely to pounce on each other after the Brown people are gone.

"ridiculous double standard" okay, so the polish-ukrainian and the german/swedish-MENA migrants stories are the same, right? They both yielded the same results, right?
Because thats what you are saying.

Take the Roma people for example, despite their "cultural affinity" being closest to Easter Europe

Oh is it? What makes you say that?

Well I would say the same about Germany and Sweden, but I think you'd argue that the government is forcing policies that no German or Swede wants. What's the difference with Poland?

The people who they are getting.

Sweden, Germany, France, UK has the most Socialist healthcare sector out of any country in Europe. Majority of European countries are Communist hellholes compared to free America. So, what's the issue there?

That was not the question. You claimed that some of the EU countries are Socialists, I asked you to name them, you couldnt, because none of them is.

So, why is the word "socialism" still an anathema in the US? my American friends, in case Sanders-or Warren- gets elected President, the world will be a better place to live.

[Love Mountain]

You went through the trouble to screenshot the article, to upload the image and to link that... so I checked the original article to find out that the assault is a 13 years old story with unknown attackers, thats why Im ignoring it.

Im wondering why are you ignoring this: "so on a scale of 1 to 10 how bad is the ukrainian "issue" in Poland?"

or this: "If instead of Poland those million ukrainians would move to Pakistan or Iraq, what do you think, how would that turn out for them?
You know, when they would start building their churches next to the local mosques, building some pig-farms, pubs, night clubs etc would you expect the same results?"

or this: "you may offer examples of large number of peoples in Europe, from very different cultures(MENA), getting along just as good as the Poles and the Ukrainians do"

Why do I have to answer questions and you don't? On a scale from 1 to 10 the issue of all minorities in Poland is a 1, because it's a made up issue. The idea that a country with a 95%+ homogeneity rate is threatened by a tiny minority regardless of where it comes from is farcical.

If you want more recent stories of anti-Urakinism in Poland, here you go. And I've read somewhere that these incidents have significantly grown from 20-50 per year to 100+ today.

"ridiculous double standard" okay, so the polish-ukrainian and the german/swedish-MENA migrants stories are the same, right? They both yielded the same results, right?
Because thats what you are saying.

That depends. Ukrainians coming to Poland on work permits vs Refugees coming to Germany and Sweden are different cases with different demographics and economic goals.

Oh is it? What makes you say that?

The fact that the largest portion of them lived there since the middle ages.

The people who they are getting.

But you agree that Germany and Sweden want those people, no?

[qquote]That was not the question. You claimed that some of the EU countries are Socialists, I asked you to name them, you couldnt, because none of them is.[/quote]

Are* How are Germany and Sweden not Socialist?

[Ludicus]

Originally Posted by Ludicus
So, why is the word "socialism" still an anathema in the US? my American friends, in case Sanders-or Warren- gets elected President, the world will be a better place to live.

He who laughs last, laughs best

Edit. Politics aside-your country provides universal healthcare for its citizens, and in the Hungarian healthcare system has begun to improve. Hungarian healthcare service goes digital as wages increase and

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You claimed that some of the EU countries are Socialists, I asked you to name them, you couldnt, because none of them is.

Depends on the definition of the word "socialist". For us, the fundamental tasks of the state are,

To guarantee national independence and create the political, economic, social and cultural conditions that promote it.
To guarantee the fundamental rights and freedoms and respect for the principles of a democratic state based on the rule of law
To defend political democracy and safeguard and encourage citizens democratic participation in the resolution of national problems
To promote the people's well-being and quality of life and real equality; effective implementation of economic, social, cultural and environmental rights by means of the transformation and modernisation of economic and social structures.
To protect and enhance people's cultural heritage, defend nature and the environment, preserve natural resources and ensure correct town and country planning.
To promote the harmonious development of the whole of territory.
To promote equality between men and women.

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These initiatives have been implemented since decades ago here in Europe. America can do it easily, and even better.'A Just Society': Ocasio-Cortez Unveils Legislative Package to Tackle American Poverty and Inequality