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Thread: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards (for 096)

  1. #21
    Nemesis2345's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    Damn and this wasnt even a normal battle where the moors spam cavalry like there is no tommorow.....

  2. #22
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    Guys,
    are you able to program or find a applet or program that would produce a text that could be added to the unit descriptions as it's done in the DaC, as shown here?

  3. #23

    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    Editing it by hand would be a pain in the bottom... not to mention updating it everytime there is a rebalance. I also wonder if DAC team used a program?


    @ Nemesis2345

    I believe you can lower Moors' cav spam by lowering recruitment prioritity of their units in EDU
    with this: recruit_priority_offset X

    Or changing their AI type but that could be drastic (in descr_strat.txt)

    • Smith - exactly level
    • Mao - biased towards mass troops, light infantry
    • Genghis - biased towards missile cavalry and light cavalry
    • Stalin - biased towards heavy infantry, mass troops and artillery
    • Napoleon - biased towards a mix of light and heavy infantry, light cavalry
    • Henry - biased towards heavy and light cavalry, missile infantry
    • Caesar - biased towards heavy infantry, light cavalry, siege artillery

  4. #24

    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Guys,
    are you able to program or find a applet or program that would produce a text that could be added to the unit descriptions as it's done in the DaC, as shown here?
    Jurand, what do you need exactly? I recently posted a text editing tool that could help you, or I could add the functionality that you need if it can't.
    PlainEdit Multipurpose editor designed to automate repetitive text modification tasks.

  5. #25
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    Quote Originally Posted by XXZit View Post
    Jurand, what do you need exactly? I recently posted a text editing tool that could help you, or I could add the functionality that you need if it can't.
    I always like to have more info about the units that appear in the unit stat shown in-game.
    I usually make tables for myself like this:



    However, I'd rather like to have all the stats visible in-game. In the EBII I use this submod. So something like that submod would be useful, and that included in TATW-DaC is much more elegant than the pic below. But it's easy to handle once you've got a script importing from EDU and putting info into text file.

    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; May 27, 2020 at 08:13 AM.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    OK, that is simple enough, I can do that. Not sure if I should add this "feature" to my program. Technically it can already do part of what you need, so I'd save time by implementing the rest, but It is already convoluted with so many options, I'm running out of letters in the alphabet.

    I can hack up a solution exclusively for this task, just give me a few days; I'm playing the Witcher 3 right now and only have the 10 days left in my vacation to finish it. I'm all yours after that
    PlainEdit Multipurpose editor designed to automate repetitive text modification tasks.

  7. #27
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    Quote Originally Posted by XXZit View Post
    OK, that is simple enough, I can do that. Not sure if I should add this "feature" to my program. Technically it can already do part of what you need, so I'd save time by implementing the rest, but It is already convoluted with so many options, I'm running out of letters in the alphabet.

    I can hack up a solution exclusively for this task, just give me a few days; I'm playing the Witcher 3 right now and only have the 10 days left in my vacation to finish it. I'm all yours after that
    You know about this mod to the Witcher? I've found it the best for my taste.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    I altered the EBII mod to work with SSHIP 9.5... if you are interested i can send it to you once i find it.

  9. #29
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    Quote Originally Posted by HaruHaias View Post
    I altered the EBII mod to work with SSHIP 9.5... if you are interested i can send it to you once i find it.
    This is a great news! I'm very interested.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    You know about this mod to the Witcher? I've found it the best for my taste.
    No, I've used all mods created by that developer in the two previous versions because they were great. But this time he fell short in addressing the most important gameplay issues of the game, the leveled world and the alchemy.
    I'm using this mod which does a phenomenal job at both: https://www.nexusmods.com/witcher3/mods/3522 Mostly anyway, there are a lot of rough edges and so I've spent hours fixing/modifying things to my taste instead of playing. Luckily, I think I'm finally ready to begin.

    I altered the EBII mod to work with SSHIP 9.5... if you are interested i can send it to you once i find it.
    Great, then JoC doesn't have to wait and I don't have to write the tool. For a second it crossed my mind to do it anyway, for added flexibility and speed, but for a single file of those tiny sizes it won't make a difference.
    PlainEdit Multipurpose editor designed to automate repetitive text modification tasks.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    Posted it before on general discussion thread, once i get home i'm gonna search it, the DAC format could be implemented, mayne you can share the file to see how is implemented?

  12. #32

    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    Got a new version up. You'll like this one.

    Changes:

    • melee_hit_rate has been reduced from 2.0 to 1.0 so units no longer have their attack ratings artificially doubled (this is partly why lancer cavalry liquidate entire units in vanilla SSHIP).
    • All units have 50 attack delay now for the sake of fairness, as some animations are ungodly slow while others are ungodly fast. Lances have 60 attack delay.
    • Lancer cavalry have 8 - 10 base lance attack depending on their era to represent advancements in lance technology.
    • Charge bonuses for lancer cavalry are still typically 11 - 14, with bonus points depending on their cultural or military uniqueness. Gendarmes, the ultimate lancer cavalry the world, have a tremendous charge rating of 10 + 18.
    • One-handed weapons that are not spears can only have 1 charge bonus, unless the unit using them is unique in some way.
    • Dedicated foot swordsmen have +2 attack. Some ranged units who are also trained in swordfighting (typically dismounted noble cavalry) also get this bonus. Despite this bonus, swordsmen still cannot really break a braced spear unit of equivalent quality.

    Example of a culturally unique ranged unit that is also expected to hold itself in melee:
    Janissary Archers (Late Era Elite):
    Attack: 9 (melee 12, sword)
    Charge: 1
    Armor: 4
    Defense: 11
    Shield: 0

    Example of an average ranged unit that is not expected to hold itself in melee:
    Turkish Crossbowmen (Early Era Average):
    Attack: 11 (melee 5, sword)
    Charge: 1
    Armor: 4
    Defense: 5
    Shield: 0

    • Great weapons (such as zweihanders) still have +4 attack, but their charge bonus has been buffed to 8. They also have a +2 bonus against cavalry due to their length. If they are polearms, they have +4 bonus against cavalry instead.
    • Cavalry have +4 bonus defense skill for being mounted instead of just +2.
    • All spears have at least +4 bonus against cavalry, negating their bonus defense skill and bringing them down to the level of infantry.
    • All spears have at least 6 charge bonus.
    • Cavalry who use swords do not get the +2 bonus to melee attack as foot swordsmen do.
    • All axes and maces are now armor-piercing.
    • Cavalry units that use axes or maces have -2 melee attack.
    • Cavalry have -1 to their shield rating compared to infantry using an equivalent shield.


    Example of a unit that uses a great weapon:
    Janissary Heavy Infantry (Late Era Elite):
    Attack: 14 (halberd)
    Charge: 8
    Armor: 8
    Defense: 11
    Shield: 0

    Examples of cavalry units that use swords:
    Chivalric Knights (Mid Era Elite):
    Lance Attack: 9 + 12 charge
    Melee Attack: 11 + 5 charge (sword)
    Armor: 8
    Defense: 15
    Shield: 5

    South European Bodyguard (Early Era Exceptional):
    Lance Attack: 8 + 13 charge
    Melee Attack: 12 + 5 charge (sword)
    Armor: 6
    Defense: 16
    Shield: 6


    Example of a cavalry unit that uses axes or maces:
    Cuman Bodyguard (Early Era Exceptional):
    Lance Attack: 8 + 13 charge
    Melee Attack: 10 + 5 charge (mace, armor-piercing)
    Armor: 6
    Defense: 16
    Shield: 5


    Example of a swordsmen infantry unit unique enough to get a hefty charge bonus:
    Viking Raiders (Early Era Superior):
    Attack: 9 (sword)
    Charge: 8
    Armor: 5
    Defense: 10
    Shield: 7

    Fixes:


    • Turns out Royal Hirdsmen do use shields and do not have great weapons, and their stats have been fixed accordingly.
    • Fixed Mid Era cavalry having 5 armor instead of 8.
    • Spear and Sword Scoutatoi now have the same stats, adjusted for their equipment.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  13. #33

    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    Quote Originally Posted by sillygoy View Post

    • melee_hit_rate has been reduced from 2.0 to 1.0 so units no longer have their attack ratings artificially doubled (this is partly why lancer cavalry liquidate entire units in vanilla SSHIP).




    nice work on everything else aswell

  14. #34
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    Hi sillygoy,
    I wonder what is the impact of
    "All units have 50 attack delay now for the sake of fairness, as some animations are ungodly slow while others are ungodly fast."
    Currently stat_sec of many units is 15, some have 25.
    This is a major difference, isn't?
    Lithuanian cavalry is pretty fast in this respect: 12.
    There must be a reason for such differences? (I mean: the gods of the past made it for some purpose).
    JoC

  15. #35

    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    Quote Originally Posted by Dekhatres View Post
    nice work on everything else aswell
    Thanks bro, love that gif

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Hi sillygoy,
    I wonder what is the impact of
    "All units have 50 attack delay now for the sake of fairness, as some animations are ungodly slow while others are ungodly fast."
    Currently stat_sec of many units is 15, some have 25.
    This is a major difference, isn't?
    Lithuanian cavalry is pretty fast in this respect: 12.
    There must be a reason for such differences? (I mean: the gods of the past made it for some purpose).
    JoC
    Well I suppose the extra time between attacks gives units with slow animations less of a chance to get stunlocked. Cavalry will also no longer deal out machine-gun speed sword strikes.

    As for the reason behind the decision to make attack speeds different between units, I can only guess. As apparently all attack delay values are the same in vanilla Med 2, I speculate that in the modders' passion and haste to make the game as historically accurate as possible they forgot that the game is limited in scope and can only really fulfill a part of their vision. If hits are proc'd only at the end of an animation, and their speeds range from very slow to very fast, then why are attack speeds different at all? In such a system, units like Halberdiers are penalized, stunlocked by swordsmen when historically they would have been effective against them. The alternative, which I have taken, is to apply a universal attack delay value to everyone that gives enough leeway for units with slow animations such that they are not disadvantaged against other units.

  16. #36
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    The idea of ​​comparing with the vanilla game is rational so as not to get lost and get something that works.

  17. #37
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    Quote Originally Posted by kostic View Post
    The idea of ​​comparing with the vanilla game is rational so as not to get lost and get something that works.
    But we've got two vanillas: the Med 2 and the SS6.4. The SSHIP has evolved from the SS6.4.

    @sillygoy: I'm unconvinced. What I can see in the other mods is: there're low delays, and high delays.

    TATW-DaC 4.5:
    type Gondor Bodyguard ; General's Bodyguard N1
    stat_pri 10, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 20, 1

    type Gondor Militia Archers ; Archer Militia AF1 ;Militia Archers
    stat_pri 3, 2, militia_arrow, 150, 18, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 40, 1
    stat_sec 3, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 40, 1


    type Gondor Lamedon Swordsmen
    stat_pri 6, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, blunt, mace, 20, 1

    type Gondor Anfalas Pikemen ;Anfalas Pikemen
    stat_pri 3, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 80, 1

    There's a reason for it. If the most developed and most recent versions of the other mods have it, I trust them. The guys dealing with the battle system have been developing them for 10+ years and the knowledge was gathered.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    Quote Originally Posted by sillygoy View Post
    Well I suppose the extra time between attacks gives units with slow animations less of a chance to get stunlocked. Cavalry will also no longer deal out machine-gun speed sword strikes.
    doesnt do anything from what i've seen and what i've tested, i used the value 10 and 90, dismounted feudal knights vs varangian guard, always stopped the battle when one unit was down to 80 men, in one test both units had delay of 10 while in second DFK had delay of 90, same exact results, both units took 40-43 casualties

    dunno, maybe i need to use higher numbers but unless i am missing something weapon delay is not working, the guy who changed delay probably was just trying to be fancy about his balance

  19. #39
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    Quote Originally Posted by Dekhatres View Post
    the guy who changed delay probably was just trying to be fancy about his balance
    But you've got different numbers in vanilla, in vanilla Stainless Steel, and in TATW-DaC. Various people must have mess with it and they did it for a reason. One fancy guy might have happen, but many?

    Frankly speaking, I'm really interested to know why it is so.
    Eg. why Gothic Knights have:
    stat_pri 7, 14, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 80, 1
    stat_sec 5, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, blunt, mace, 22, 1

    while in the TATW-DaC the heavy knights have very low number, but archers average (and pikemen the highest).

    Can somebody find it out? Maybe people in EBII or TATW know?
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; May 29, 2020 at 11:17 AM.

  20. #40
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Sillygoy's Unit Stats Standardization, so you don't get annihilated by General's Bodyguards

    So beware ! Changing the statistics seems more subtle than you imagine !
    By believing to do well maybe we completely unbalance the game ...





    That said, my experience with Aragon against the Moors is really frustrating because my units, knights and militias seem weak in front of opposing lancers.

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