Trans Day of Visibility

[enoch]

Today is trans day of visibility in the US. Having a Congress and a President who support Trans rights is a big deal for the US. Unlike the EU where trans rights are protected by majority belief, many states in America allow discrimination against trans people. One of the first things President Biden accomplished was an executive order saying children are allowed to compete according to their gender identity. There are lawsuits weaving through the court system but even proponents of treating trans people as less than people admit the cases are unlikely to succeed.

While we celebrate as a forum the human rights of all people, reflect on all the sad reasons from homophobia to mistaken beliefs about what gender is that keep prejudice and hate for trans people a real issue in our slowly enlightening society.

Arkansas just passed the single most extreme anti trans law ever to pass a state legislature according to the ACLU
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbc...mp/ncna1262412

And Trans hate crime keeps increasing at higher rates than crime overall
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill...be-worse%3famp

[Cyclops]

Its a hot topic, very complex feelings for a lot of people.

I know one kid trying to take their own life, having a horrible time of it. I see the flip side of organised sports facing litigation pitfalls whatever happens. Big Medicine will get involved because there's bucks to be made, of course, and no doubt the shouty ideologues from the more boring political factions will have their say.

Familiarity will dampen some of the more childish ignorant responses like "they are all angels/devils" so official days like this will help I guess.

[antaeus]

Familiarity will dampen some of the more childish ignorant responses like "they are all angels/devils" so official days like this will help I guess.

Certainly familiarity can create understanding. But I'd suggest that familiarity has to be personal, rather than informational. Some out there struggle to empathise with trans people because they find them for what ever reason abhorrent, or irrational, scarily different etc - no amount of days will change that opinion, and in fact may entrench it if the day highlights an uncomfortable progressive change in society.

The kind of familiarity that benefits is that of personal interaction - a workmate, family friend, neighbour etc. And the more trans people are able to feel comfortable interacting normally with the world, the more likely it is that those who don't understand might meet someone who humanises the issue for them - In particular I'm thinking those people who struggle with empathy for strangers in general - the half of people out there who have lower than median EQ.

[Gromovnik]

Everyone should have a right to be who they are.

[Himster]

Everyone should have the right to become who they are.

That's the metaphysical beauty of the trans concept: ie. not one thing nor the other, but transitioning and becoming, bursting with indefinite possibilities. In a significant and profound way: we're all trans, we are all engaged in the project of becoming what we are. There is absolutely no reason to single out trans folks for this, just because their becoming often has more visual cues.

There is no reliable or fixed schema for "being", outside of ontological arguments (which are a load of bollocks anyway) infected with scientism and/or cultural relativism. The lesson we should all learn from that, is self perception will never and can never line up with external perception. Neither of them are entirely correct or entirely wrong as our transitory natures consistently defy concrete definitions.

It's important to note that forcing others to accept our own self-perceptions is no worse/better than others forcing us to accept their external perceptions. Everyone should just chill the out and slide your noses out of other people's business.

[enoch]

If only everyone could just be cool. The ontological arguments are crap.

[Taiji]

If I had a problem with Trans people I'd torture them with things like days of visibility. Surely they'd prefer to simply pass as members of the opposite gender instead of being called out. I can't help but wonder if all the supposedly well-meaning but quite possibly politically-parasitic activism is resulting in more suicides.

[enoch]

If I had a problem with Trans people I'd torture them with things like days of visibility. Surely they'd prefer to simply pass as members of the opposite gender instead of being called out. I can't help but wonder if all the supposedly well-meaning but quite possibly politically-parasitic activism is resulting in more suicides.

Not old enough to remember when definitely not well meaning people used to argue most homosexuals preferred to be in the closet. How sad it was a maliciously advocating for their own human rights minority was making a big deal out of little things like not being able to marry someone they love.

Let’s delve into your choice of the word torture.

[Taiji]

Not old enough to remember when definitely not well meaning people used to argue most homosexuals preferred to be in the closet. How sad it was a maliciously advocating for their own human rights minority was making a big deal out of little things like not being able to marry someone they love.

Let’s delve into your choice of the word torture.

So, just to be clear, you think Trans folk want people to know that they aren't really the gender they identify as?

[enoch]

So, just to be clear, you think Trans folk want people to know that they aren't really the gender they identify as?

Trans folk are the gender they identify as. Are you thinking of cross dressers? Doesn’t make the question any more coherent. If the question is do I hear what you are saying. Sure do.

[Taiji]

Trans folk are the gender they identify as. Are you thinking of cross dressers? Doesn’t make the question any more coherent. If the question is do I hear what you are saying. Sure do.

So, just to be clear, you believe a Trans woman is a woman and that the term Trans is redundant?

[enoch]

@Taiji A trans woman is a woman and it would be fantastic if the word trans was redundant. Maybe in the world where we are colorblind.

[Taiji]

@Taiji A trans woman is a woman and it would be fantastic if the word trans was redundant. Maybe in the world where we are colorblind.

But if the word 'trans' is not redundant, like you say you believe it is not, then a trans woman is not a woman to you.

[enoch]

But if the word 'trans' is not redundant, like you say you believe it is not, then a trans woman is not a woman to you.

Trans or Cis, Young or Old, Black or White, Short or Tall, Angry or Happy, French or Malaysian, Catholic or Heretical Christian Sect & so forth

All women.

[Taiji]

Trans or Cis, Young or Old, Black or White, Short or Tall, Angry or Happy, French or Malaysian, Catholic or Heretical Christian Sect & so forth

All women.

So, just to be clear, you believe that trans women aren't cis women?

[enoch]

So, just to be clear, you believe that trans women aren't cis women?

I believe transgender and cisgender are antonyms. So regardless of sex no transgender people are cisgender in a vacuum. In irl what these words mean is fluid not absolute as gender is a social construct. As pure science it is measurable as long as a criteria is agreed upon first.

Because I don’t remember you are these questions a sincere effort to understand my words or is there a clever ending you are working towards. I love clever endings. So no judgment. Just on the edge of of seat wondering.

[Taiji]

I believe transgender and cisgender are antonyms. So regardless of sex no transgender people are cisgender in a vacuum. In irl what these words mean is fluid not absolute as gender is a social construct. As pure science it is measurable as long as a criteria is agreed upon first.

Because I don’t remember you are these questions a sincere effort to understand my words or is there a clever ending you are working towards. I love clever endings. So no judgment. Just on the edge of of seat wondering.

I suppose they would be antonyms as much as man and woman would be antonyms. Effectively no different from denying the womanhood of trans women. Just replacing the word for women with 'cis women' and reusing the old word for women as a category that includes trans women.

So why turn the word 'woman' into a category that includes trans women? My guess would be that you want the new category 'woman' to retain the old term's privileges and rights, but there is no reason why it should.

For example, if I change your name to 'cis enoch' in my mind, mentally reassign 'enoch' as a category containing cis enoch and trans enochs, and declare myself a 'trans enoch' demanding that I get to use your property as I wish, because I believe the category 'enoch' retains the old term's property rights, then I don't need to ask you if you're going to be fine with that. Of course you won't be fine with that; I'm obviously attempting to mince words in order to steal your property.

[enoch]

I suppose they would be antonyms as much as man and woman would be antonyms.

Your suppositions aside transgender and cisgender ARE antonyms. Man and Woman are also antonyms. One group refers to your perceived gender matching your biological sex. The other your perceived gender period.

Using just this one instance as a data set: guessing is not your gift.

The gibberish at the end was worth the read though.

[Taiji]

Using just this one instance as a data set: guessing is not your gift.

So, for example, you don't want to see trans women gain access to cis women's sport (formerly known as 'women's sport') just because you reassigned the term 'women' to become a category that includes trans women?

Sorry for the long sentence in the previous post, I felt you were up to the task.

[enoch]

You go back to before me: not a point in your favor you had anything but the lowest expectations for me. Will try to answer what I think is your question. I have no problems with all women playing women’s sports at the amateur level period. I have some problems with forcing private colleges to do the same. I have serious problems with forcing private adult and professional leagues to include all women (black, Catholic, trans...) because $$profits$$ come first. I give zero s about the Olympics.

I love capitalism and socialism and anarchism and libertarianism but most of all freedom of speech and belief and movement, human rights et al and all the other common sense things that would make a better world and I hate hate hate moralizers and xenophobes and people telling other people what to do so all these things make sense to me.

No gods. No Masters.