View Poll Results: Which party would you vote for?

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25. You may not vote on this poll
  • Likud (Conservative)

    3 12.00%
  • Jewish Home (Right-Wing)

    0 0%
  • Yesh Atid (Centrism)

    0 0%
  • Labour (Center-Left)

    1 4.00%
  • New Right (right-wing)

    1 4.00%
  • Joint Union (Israeli Arab)

    3 12.00%
  • Kulanu (Center)

    0 0%
  • Shas (Sephardic-Mizrahi Orthodoxy)

    1 4.00%
  • United Torah Judaism (Ashkenazi Orthodoxy)

    0 0%
  • Yachad (Ultra-Orthodoxy)

    0 0%
  • Hatnuah (Liberalism)

    0 0%
  • Ta'al (Arab Nationalism)

    3 12.00%
  • Israel Resilience Party (Center-Right)

    0 0%
  • Metetz (Green-Left)

    8 32.00%
  • Yisrael Beiteinu (Zionism)

    0 0%
  • Gesher (Right-Wing)

    1 4.00%
  • Zehut (Libertarianism)

    3 12.00%
  • Other (Please, specify)

    1 4.00%
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Thread: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

  1. #481
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Not likely that would assuredly been the end of the Jordanian Monarchy. RE: Black September. Realistically the elite in Jordan likely rather prefer Israel do the heavy lifting of playing occupying power in the West Bank. And I might be wrong but I seem to recall Egypt has no open border with its brothers in Gaza.
    Jordan annexed the "west bank" when they had controlled it.

  2. #482
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Jordan annexed the "west bank" when they had controlled it.
    Stepping back, Israel does treat the "Arab State" in Palestine pretty harshly (and there's a bunch of reasons around that), but its definitely true to say the neighbouring Arab States have treated the Palestinian people in an extremely predatory way. I bloody wish they had someone in their corner.

    I just read an interesting overview of scripture and its uses (Lost Art of Scripture by Armstrong, a good read), and the author winds up with an exegesis of the Samson story. There's a passing reference to Israel's current status: as a successful military power its existence has been more closely defined by that power, especially since 1967.

    In a Taoist twist of course that strength is a weakness, as it invites military solutions to other problems. Terrorists using Palestinians as human shields and bribing them to become suicide bombers provokes a military response and it seems disproportionate. The intervention in Lebanon under Olmert was an example of Israel being pivoted by a weaker power into a blunder by exploiting that strength.

    The endgame for Samson is he brings down the temple of Dagon, after being tricked in Gaza. I hope Israel can marry the Philistine bride and bring back sweetness to the house of their parents, and not be tricked and sent into a destructive rage by the wife's relatives.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  3. #483
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-...nett/100177536

    So its being reported in Australia Yamina has crossed to the anti-Bibi camp, how final is this development?
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  4. #484

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-...nett/100177536

    So its being reported in Australia Yamina has crossed to the anti-Bibi camp, how final is this development?
    Until the vote, it isn't final. Only a single defection or abstention will undermine it completely, and Netanyahu has several days to try to engineer that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  5. #485
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Well, folks, it happened. Benjamin Netanyahu is no longer prime minister of Israel, but is now instead leader of the opposition. The new prime minister, in a rotation agreement, is Naftali Bennet!

  6. #486
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Apparently, Bibi is channeling his inner Trump, being a sore loser and crying election fraud.
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  7. #487
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    Apparently, Bibi is channeling his inner Trump, being a sore loser and crying election fraud.
    Not very accurate. Netanyahu didn't claim election fraud, he claimed that Yamina had committed fraud by duping its voters into thinking they wouldn't join an anti-Netanyahu coalition. Of course Bennet had been saying all along that he won't commit to not joining an anti-Netanyahu bloc, which was especially clear as he announced multiple times that he himself is running for prime minister. That's not to say that he didn't break any promises, he certainly did as he promised to not sit with Lapid, but that was basically a last minute attempt to prevent Netanyahu from stealing away his voters. Either way, Netanyahu is not one to complain about broken promises.

    As for being a sore loser, it's because he was until the final moment looking for ways to break this coalition apart, and it almost worked as he caused a member to vote against and one to abstain. There were 60 votes for and 59 against. He did however after the vote shake hands with Bennet and will tomorrow meet with him to transfer power.

  8. #488
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    We had a very long lived PM in John Howard. He was above all a political survivor,. Not a racist himself (or at least not a KKK toothless hick racist) he flirted with racists by making public the secret torment camps for boat refugees established by his opponents. When a mass shooting happened he threw his farming supporters under the bus by enacting quite severe gun restrictions. He scotched a referendum for a republic with skilful "divide and conquer" tactics, keeping the Queen in charge of Australia for a generation at least, and above all he sold the farm to China while staying loyal to the US.

    Compare him with more influential leaders such as Whitlam (a star who burned five times as bright and lasted 4 years-he made so many more major positive decisions, and so many more mistakes than Howard in his his two short terms), and his hero Menzies who was likewise a human embalming fluid, retarding social progress. .

    The skills that let you survive in politics don't always make you a great leader. Is this Bibi's legacy? Did he spend so much time holding onto office that he had little time left to lead the country?
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  9. #489

    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    Apparently, Bibi is channeling his inner Trump, being a sore loser and crying election fraud.
    Elaborating on what was already said, the alleged "greatest fraud in Israel's history" is supposedly that "Bennett and his allies are fake right" who "stole right wing votes" by pretending to be right wing. Netanyahu's rhetoric was meant to shame right wing MKs into defecting to him. Regarding MK Amichai Chikli, who defected from Bennett's Yamina party to oppose the Bennett-Lapid coalition, Netanyahu said "He's not the defector. You, Yamina MKs, are the defectors."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    The skills that let you survive in politics don't always make you a great leader. Is this Bibi's legacy? Did he spend so much time holding onto office that he had little time left to lead the country?
    To a degree, yes. Netanyahu was brought down by three right wing parties, all of which are led by his former protegees, all of whom chose to form a coalition with left wing parties and an Islamist party rather than work with Netanyahu any longer. On the other hand, Netanyahu's foreign policy is still widely viewed as having been a success, and he still leads the largest party in the Knesset and has a large and devoted core following. Netanyahu could still make another come back, he correctly referred to Bennett as "a prime minister who stands on the head of a pin". Which is why instituting a term limit on the office of prime minister is one of the goals of the new government.

    This article lists the published key principles of the new government and the terms of all the agreements made with each of the constituent parties. It should be a good indication of the direction the new government will take, since it isn't just empty promises in that it represents what they're obligated to pursue if they want to hold the coalition together.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  10. #490
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    This article lists the published key principles of the new government
    I quote,
    The government will work for the entire Israeli public — religious, secular, ultra-Orthodox, Arab — without exception, as one.
    Pretty words to fool the unwary.Impossible, in a closed ethno-religious society. What does it mean to be genetically Jewish? - The Guardian
    Rabbinate have not indicated any intention of ending DNA testing, and reports continue to circulate in the Israeli media of how the test is being used.
    And I quote,
    The government will promote a plan to clamp down on illegal Palestinian construction in Area C of the West Bank
    Bennet refers to area that makes up 60% of West Bank.There is no Palestinian state without this region. The idea is to suffocate Palestinian development in their land. More than 450,000 Israeli settlers live in Area C, in clear violation of international law. Let’s keep in mind that Bennet and other Israeli leaders have called for the annexation of the entire West Bank.The transfer of control to the Palestinian Authority has never happened. According to the Oslo accords and to the United Nations, "Area C" is Palestinian land in the occupied West Bank.
    Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and Gaza Strip...
    Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip (a.k.a. “Oslo II”)

    ARTICLE XI
    Land
    1. The two sides view the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as a single territorial unit, the integrity and status of which will be preserved during the interim period.

    c."Area C" means areas of the West Bank outside Areas A and B, which, except for the issues that will be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations, will be gradually transferred to Palestinian jurisdiction in accordance with this Agreement.
    2. The two sides agree that West Bank and Gaza Strip territory, except for issues that will be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations, will come under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Council in a phased manner, to be completed within 18 months from the date of the inauguration of the Council

    ARTICLE XVII
    Jurisdiction

    2. Accordingly, the authority of the Council encompasses all matters that fall within its territorial, functional and personal jurisdiction, as follows:
    a. The territorial jurisdiction of the Council shall encompass Gaza Strip territory, except for the Settlements and the Military Installation Area shown on map No. 2, and West Bank territory, except for Area C which, except for the issues that will be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations, will be gradually transferred to Palestinian jurisdiction in three phases, each to take place after an interval of six months, to be completed 18 months after the inauguration of the Council.
    It never happened.

    -------
    Israel wages war of semantics over West Bank 'Area C

    But Israel, which aims to annex parts of the territory, is waging a war of semantics over its status.
    But rather than trying to impose the biblical "Judea and Samaria" term used by Israel for the West Bank, the reproaches focus on the Oslo peace accords of the 1990s. Yossi Beilin, one of the Israeli negotiators of the Oslo accords, said that Area C was intended to become "part of Palestine" in a final deal.
    Viewing Area C now as Israeli territory "abuses the Oslo agreement", he told AFP, by turning something "interim" into something "forever".
    Beilin said the Israeli right believes they are being "very generous" in proposing to divide the area in two. "They don't understand why the world is against it," said Beilin.
    --------
    A pertinent question, the matter is currently under consideration by the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court.Israeli Settlements in the West Bank, a War Crime ? Revue des droits de l'homme - N° 17
    Read the full juridical text.

    "... “it will not be difficult to establish the criminal responsibility of the Israeli (political, administrative and military) leaders, who have been organizing and implementing this settlement policy since 13 June 2014. Will these leaders be prosecuted before the ICC ? The answer lies with the court Prosecutor : a delicate decision to make, not for legal reasons since the crime seems established beyond any reasonable doubt, but for political reasons. Indeed, prosecution of Israeli leaders may provoke a strong American reaction and possible sanctions. Yet, will the Prosecutor have the courage to do it ?”

    --
    Why Israel fears the ICC war crimes investigation-The Guardian

    Last edited by Ludicus; June 23, 2021 at 11:27 AM.
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  11. #491
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I quote,


    Pretty words to fool the unwary.Impossible, in a closed ethno-religious society. What does it mean to be genetically Jewish? - The Guardian
    And yet there's an Arab party in the coalition, as well as several Arab members of parliament in the non-Arab parties, some of whom are ministers. So what makes you say that?

    Bennet refers to area that makes up 60% of West Bank.
    And about 6% of its population.
    There is no Palestinian state without this region. The idea is to suffocate Palestinian development in their land.
    The idea is that the boundary set by the Oslo accords means the PA lacks the authority to construct in area C.
    More than 450,000 Israeli settlers live in Area C, in clear violation of international law. Let’s keep in mind that Bennet and other Israeli leaders have called for the annexation of the entire West Bank.
    False, Bennet only calls for the annexation of area C. I'm guessing you did not watch his video I've linked?


    -------
    Israel wages war of semantics over West Bank 'Area C


    --------
    A pertinent question, the matter is currently under consideration by the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court.Israeli Settlements in the West Bank, a War Crime ? Revue des droits de l'homme - N° 17
    Read the full juridical text.

    "... “it will not be difficult to establish the criminal responsibility of the Israeli (political, administrative and military) leaders, who have been organizing and implementing this settlement policy since 13 June 2014. Will these leaders be prosecuted before the ICC ? The answer lies with the court Prosecutor : a delicate decision to make, not for legal reasons since the crime seems established beyond any reasonable doubt, but for political reasons. Indeed, prosecution of Israeli leaders may provoke a strong American reaction and possible sanctions. Yet, will the Prosecutor have the courage to do it ?”

    --
    Why Israel fears the ICC war crimes investigation-The Guardian

    The ICC has no authority here.

    And a general statement on the conflict and the current coalition: There won't be any permanent peace signed. The coalition is too divergent in its stances, and has agreed beforehand to not to even try to tackle such matters. It will focus only on things that there is a general consensus about, and to quote Bennet: "Diminishing the conflict", apparently by improving quality of life for Arabs in Judea and Samaria, what exactly that entails remains to be seen.

  12. #492
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    And about 6% of its population.
    61% of the West Bank.
    All areas surrounding Areas A and B were defined as Area C, where the access is closed and restricted to Palestinians. In practice, Israel’s control of Area C affects all Palestinian West Bank residents.
    The population of illegal Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank is now just short of 600,000 illegal Jewish settlers - and 300.000 Palestinians.The new demographic threat: Bennet's New Right has estimated that only "50,000 Arabs" residing in the area residing in the area will need to be awarded a..."citizenship". Bennet called on Israel to impose sovereignty unilaterally on Area C. According to the Oslo accords,
    8. The two Parties view the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as a single territorial unit, the integrity and status of which will be preserved during the interim period.
    The division of the West Bank into Areas A, B and C does not reflect a geographic reality, merely reflects an administrative division and was to have been temporary. It was not designed to address the needs of long-term demographic growth.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Bennet only calls for the annexation of area C. I'm guessing you did not watch his video I've linked?
    For now... Didn't you watch the video I've linked? (when he says that he only calls for the annexation of the area C, that is relevant to the topic.When he states " Bible says west bank is ours", is not relevant to the topic)
    "The Bible says West Bank is ours" https://youtu.be/Png17wB_omA
    ------
    The project to settle the occupied territories is a ideology called “territorial religion”. Bennet’s “Jewish Home Party” is a religious zionist part.
    Religious Zionism and Israeli Foreign Policy

    The younger generation of religious Zionists also took over the leadership of the National Religious Party, which as a consequence became more closely associated with the hawkish position on territorial concessions...
    For many, territory has become the very core element of their ideology, having replaced other religious precepts as the foundation stone around which their religious and national affiliation is based. Their inherent “right” to settle the West Bank is seen as part of a Divine process, of which pre-1967 Zionism and the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 were stages through which abstract and metaphysical notions of space have been transformed into concrete notions of statehood following two thousand years of exile and territorial dislocation, and through which the “homeland” territory has returned to its “rightful owner”, and been “liberated” from foreign control. (Newman 2001, 241)
    Such a religiously extremist view of the occupied territories excludes the possibility to negotiate rationally a solution that is based on concessions and compromise.
    The Increasingly Right Stuff: Religious Parties in Israel's
    ...in recent years things have dramatically changed. Both population sectors and the parties representing them⁠—the ultra-Orthodox parties United Torah Judaism and Shas, and the National Religious parties Habayit Hayehudi (Jewish Home)—have turned politically to the right. The ultra-Orthodox sector has been deeply politicized, some would even say “Zionified.”
    To an even greater extent, the National Religious sector also massively affiliates itself with the political right. With few exceptions, the latter strongly identifies with the Judea and Samaria (West Bank) settlement project as well as with the settler community. Last but not least, the National Religious sector has undergone a cognitive transition: they no longer see themselves as a parochial political player, but rather as the ideological spearhead of Israeli Jewish society.
    Support for Israel shifts among young US evangelical ...
    After the latest round of conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, American televangelist John Hagee lectured his congregation on consecutive Sundays at the Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas.
    “Supporting Israel is not a political issue. It is a Bible issue,” Hagee proclaimed in a May 23 sermon on what he called “the battle for Jerusalem”. “Whenever Jesus comes back, Israel is going to be the dominant nation in the world,” Hagee said, touching the belief among many evangelicals that Jesus will return soon to save his followers from this earthly world.
    According to Times of Israel, Support for Israel among young US evangelical Christians ...
    While the religious group has long been a bulwark of support for Israel in the US, the Barna Group-administered poll commissioned by researchers at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke indicates a sharp drop in support for the Jewish state and raises concerns that Israel could lose a key ally going forward, its authors told The Times of Israel on Monday.
    The poll was commissioned as part of their research for an upcoming book on the issue.
    In a poll of over 700 evangelical Christians between the ages of 18 and 29 that was conducted between March and April, respondents were asked where they place their support in the “Israeli-Palestinian dispute.” Just 33.6 percent said with Israel, 24.3% said with the Palestinians and 42.2 percent said with neither side.
    This marked a significant shift from 2018, when 69% young evangelicals — responding to another survey conducted by UNCP professors, Motti Inbari and Kirill Bumin — said they side with Israel, 5.6% said they sided with the Palestinians and 25.7% said they didn’t take either side.
    ------
    ------
    Slightly off topic. Anthropology teaches that when ancient societies hit a million people, vengeful Gods appeared (1)-but wasn’t superstitious theism/polytheism/with superhuman carnal gods with arms and legs, a wonderful thing? (In)tolerant Roman polytheism

    (1) When Ancient Societies Hit a Million People, Vengeful Gods ...
    But which came first: complex societies or the belief in a punishing god?A new study suggests that the formation of complex societies came first and that the beliefs in such gods helped unite people under a common higher power.
    Last edited by Ludicus; June 25, 2021 at 01:07 PM.
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  13. #493
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    61% of the West Bank.
    ..Yeah, I did not deny that. But it's also 6% of the population.
    All areas surrounding Areas A and B were defined as Area C, where the access is closed and restricted to Palestinians. In practice, Israel’s control of Area C affects all Palestinian West Bank residents.
    The population of illegal Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank is now just short of 600,000 illegal Jewish settlers - and 300.000 Palestinians.The new demographic threat: Bennet's New Right has estimated that only "50,000 Arabs" residing in the area residing in the area will need to be awarded a..."citizenship". Bennet called on Israel to impose sovereignty unilaterally on Area C.
    You do know that none of this will actually happen, right? Even if Bennet were to push for it he'd have maybe 13 votes in favour and 107 against.

    According to the Oslo accords,

    The division of the West Bank into Areas A, B and C does not reflect a geographic reality, merely reflects an administrative division and was to have been temporary. It was not designed to address the needs of long-term demographic growth.
    Indeed, and it will remain as such for the time being. I don't see a peace treaty within the next 20 years to be quite honest. Well, depends who replaces Abbas when he dies/resigns/is forced out for pulling a Khashoggi yesterday by sending the PA's security forced to beat to death a well known journalist who was a vocal critic of his government.

    For now... Didn't you watch the video I've linked? (when he says that he only calls for the annexation of the area C, that is relevant to the topic.When he states " Bible says west bank is ours", is not relevant to the topic)
    "The Bible says West Bank is ours" https://youtu.be/Png17wB_omA
    He's well aware that we cannot annex the whole thing.
    The project to settle the occupied territories is a ideology called “territorial religion”. Bennet’s “Jewish Home Party” is a religious zionist part.
    Religious Zionism and Israeli Foreign Policy
    Sheesh, get on with the times old man. Bennett left the Jewish Home party 3 years ago to found a secular, non-sectarian (read: non religious-zionist) party. Well, 2 of them.

    Also, this doesn't apply to all religious-zionists, it's a large and varied group that includes people left and right. Religious-zionists are religious Jews.. who are zionists. This as opposed to the Ultra-orthodox (Haredi) who aren't zionists.
    This isn't just the religious groups, the Israeli public in general has shifted to the right, and moreso with every election. A direct result of the failure of the land for peace doctrine that the rapidly diminishing Israeli left had embraced. The two ultra-orthodox parties haven't really changed their stances, they don't really have a stance on the conflict, they just agree to vote in accordance with whatever the coalition's position is.

  14. #494
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    This is an excellent article, Why the two-state solution for Israel-Palestine is the only way

    ...A 2020 poll found that a scant 10 percent of Jewish Israelis supported a one-state solution in which Palestinians and Jewish Israelis are equal citizens. And only 13 percent of Israel’s Arab citizens supported such an option. By contrast, 42 percent of Jewish Israelis and 59 percent of Arab Israelis supported two states.

    The Israeli commitment to Zionism creates an insuperable political problem for a one-state solution. Israel holds the preponderance of the power in the current situation; getting to one state would require a nuclear-armed state with one of the world’s best-equipped militaries to unilaterally agree to dismantle itself.
    Compared to that, the barriers to a two-state solution seem more surmountable.

    While evacuating settlements will be challenging for Israel, it has the capacity to do so.

    Daniel Seidemann, a leading expert on Jerusalem and the geography of the conflict, told me that Israel would have to withdraw and rehome about 185,000 settlers to make a two-state solution viable.
    ...Similarly, while the divisions between Hamas and Fatah run deep, it’s much easier to imagine them agreeing to share power under the current Palestinian political framework than some new one-state movement.
    A 2018 report on Gaza and Palestinian division written by a group of leading experts in Washington — including Hady Amr, Biden’s current deputy assistant secretary of state for Israeli and Palestinian affairs — argues that a more robust international effort to foster Palestinian unity could offer stronger incentives and security guarantees for all sides, increasing the chance that an agreement might stick.
    “Getting agreement from Israel, Hamas, and the PA/PLO will still be extraordinarily difficult, but a campaign coordinated between all the external actors has the greatest likelihood of success,” the report argues.
    Abandoning the desire for self-determination, something that has been the very raison d’etre of Palestinian nationalism since the 1960s and something that has actually been achieved by Zionists, is a steep demand to make of both,” Nadav Shelef, a University of Wisconsin professor who studies national identity and ethnic struggle, wrote in a recent essay applying academic research on how nationalist sentiment declines to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

    Given the entrenched identities on both sides, it would likely be nearly impossible to create a truly “democratic” single state in which both communities feel authentically represented. Far more likely is a situation in which one national vision dominates the other, either by force of arms or force of numbers. In either case, one side will feel unrepresented by a one-state reality — which is a recipe for disaster.

    “The United States needs to send a clear and consistent signal to Israel that the violation of norms and the undermining of U.S. policy goals will have consequences,” the Carnegie report argues. “Absent these messages and the policies to back them up, the trajectory of Israeli policy and politics will not change and the door on peaceful conflict resolution and a two-state outcome will further close.”
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 04, 2021 at 11:42 AM.
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I don't think anyone on this thread has argued against a two-state solution.

  16. #496
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    Default Re: Israel elections April 2019, September 2019, March 2020, March 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    While Israeli factions like the creepy settlers want to elbow Muslim Palestinians out, I think the State of Israel and the majority of Israelis are already committed to this.

    Sumskilz has posted some survey results suggesting most Palestinian Arabs want Israel erased, which is definitely a One State solution. Certainly in Australia the rhetoric seems more anti-Israel than pro Palestinian, the refrain is "from the river to the sea", meaning literal "erase Israel".

    I accept the passionate defiance of many Palestinian Arabs to the occupation and partition of their old homeland is a very natural response (I have Irish blood in my veins, from all the major factions there, and the issues in Ireland make my blood boil so much sometimes I want to punch myself). That said its not the way to peace. Right now its an unwinnable fight, and were it to be won the Palestinians would need almost inescapably to become monsters (as the IRA and UDF and other factions have made monsters of themselves in Ireland).

    It suits other states and rotten criminals like the Saudis for this hatred and intransigence to exist and they encourage it. Outside factions certain interfere with Israeli and Palestinian Arab negotiations, they cannot go into a room without other world leaders at the table. I used to think it was because both sides were such intransigent ****heads they had to be dragged in there by the sensible adults. Now I am persuaded its because outside powers don't want peace, and were the various elements in Old Palestine left to themselves to work things out they might actually get it done.

    My idiot aspiration would be a twin state, Greater Palestine, consisting of Israel and Arab Palestine. Two systems with federal cooperation at a high level, and shared sports teams (I'm not saying one side or the other is bad at sports or anything, just they could have a bigger pool of players). The flag would be an abortion though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post

    Sumskilz has posted some survey results suggesting most Palestinian Arabs want Israel erased, which is definitely a One State solution. Certainly in Australia the rhetoric seems more anti-Israel than pro Palestinian, the refrain is "from the river to the sea", meaning literal "erase Israel".
    Well this isn't the same one state solution as the posted article is talking about. The article speaks of a democratic state where both Jews and Arabs live and have equal democratic rights. That's not the one state solution the "from the river to the sea" folk want.

    It suits other states and rotten criminals like the Saudis for this hatred and intransigence to exist and they encourage it. Outside factions certain interfere with Israeli and Palestinian Arab negotiations, they cannot go into a room without other world leaders at the table. I used to think it was because both sides were such intransigent ****heads they had to be dragged in there by the sensible adults. Now I am persuaded its because outside powers don't want peace, and were the various elements in Old Palestine left to themselves to work things out they might actually get it done.
    Well not so much the Saudi's anymore, remarkable progress has been made in regards to them. Not to mention their hatred for Hamas, an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood, which is designated as a terrorist organisation by Saudi Arabia, though Turkey has been "stepping up" in their place. Qatar is the primary sponsor of Hamas and of course there's Iran.
    My idiot aspiration would be a twin state, Greater Palestine, consisting of Israel and Arab Palestine. Two systems with federal cooperation at a high level, and shared sports teams (I'm not saying one side or the other is bad at sports or anything, just they could have a bigger pool of players). The flag would be an abortion though.
    Too much animosity for that to work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    ...

    Too much animosity for that to work.
    Sadly yes atm, and too much foreign interference. Still Ireland has been mostly pacified, and may soon reunite, but not in a way imagine by the idiot savages of the several terrorist factions imagined, so there's hope.

    Old chap the Saudis may have covered their tracks but I don't believe for a second they have stopped sponsoring murder wherever they can. Its a shame a country like Iran with a big liberal middle class and an ancient tradition of tolerance is enslaved by murdering extremists who foster and gloat over terror too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    My idiot aspiration would be a twin state, Greater Palestine, consisting of Israel and Arab Palestine.
    That's impossible,Cyclops.As Oren Yiftachel, Professor of Political Geography, Ben Gurion University, clearly explains,

    There is a duality in the Israeli state between a democratic facade and a deeper undemocratic regime logic, which facilitates the dispossession, control, and peripheralization of groups that do not belong to the dominant ethno-class.
    Thus the very nature of the settling ethnocracy, which combines expansion, settlement, segregation, and ethno-class stratification, militates against the effectiveness of challenges emanating from peripheral groups. The selective openness of the regime, which allows for public protest, free speech, and periodic elections, is largely an illusion: the ethnocratic regime has arranged itself politically, culturally, and geographically so as to absorb, contain, or ignore the challenge emerging from its peripheries, thereby trapping them in their respective predicaments.
    Take note,"‘selective openness… which allows for public protest, free speech, and periodic election is largely an illusion".

    The reason why Israel does not have a constitution,as Amnon Rubinstein (the founding father of Israeli constitutional law) explains,
    Initial attempts to institutionalize a written constitution were met with the staunch opposition of both Ben-Gurion, who believed that constitutional restraints would imperil the interests of the nascent state, and the religious parties, who objected to any secular constraints on their political power
    Amnon Rubinstein, concludes, "Can Israel be both Jewish and democratic? The answer… is far from simple..."
    In fact, the answer is no.

    Sammy Smooha, Professor of Sociology at the University of Haifa,defines Israel as an "ethnic democracy"..."...Although enjoying citizenship and voting rights, the minorities are treated as second class citizens, feared as a threat, excluded from the national power structure, and placed under some control"
    But a democratic state cannot privilege an ethnic majority while, and at the same time, provide "equal rights and equal treatment" for disadvantaged minorities.

    In 1947 the United Nations General Assembly passed Resolution 181 which partitioned the British Mandate of Palestine into a "Jewish state" and an "Arab state", giving Jews, who made 30% of the population, 56% per cent of the land. As the UN resolution 194 clarifies, Israel was founded on the illegal expulsion and forced flight of close to 700.000 indigenous Palestinians who became refugees who have the right to return to their homes.But even without even the refugees ( who in 2012 numbered between five and seven million),over 20% of Israel's population are not Jews, a fact that undermines the Israel's claim of being "Jewish".

    John McGarry explains that there is not much difference between an Herrenvolk democracy (South Africa apartheid) and an "ethnic democracy",
    Herrenvolk democracy and ethnic democracy are similar in profound ways. Both are at odds with fundamental principles of civic equality and democratic accountability, and both are at best incomplete or partial democracies. In practice, the minority may be excluded just as effectively in an ethnic democracy as in the Herrenvolk variety
    .

    most Palestinian Arabs want Israel erased
    One thing is certain, most Israeli Jews want Palestinians erased.
    -----
    There is a huge contradiction between the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, 1948...
    The State of Israel… will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture.
    ...and the Clause 7A, Basic Law, The Knesset, 1985,
    A candidates' list shall not participate in elections to the Knesset if its objects or actions, expressly or by implication, include one of the following: (1) negation of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people; (2) negation of the democratic character of the State; (3) incitement to racism
    There is only one solution: a two states solution,based on pre 1967 lines.UN two-state solution on 'pre-1967 lines'

    Last edited by Ludicus; July 14, 2021 at 10:35 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    That's impossible,Cyclops.As Oren Yiftachel, Professor of Political Geography, Ben Gurion University, clearly explains,


    Take note,"‘selective openness… which allows for public protest, free speech, and periodic election is largely an illusion".

    What a load of bull, especially in light of the current ruling coalition including an anti-zionist Islamist party.
    The reason why Israel does not have a constitution,as Amnon Rubinstein (the founding father of Israeli constitutional law) explains,

    Amnon Rubinstein, concludes, "Can Israel be both Jewish and democratic? The answer… is far from simple..."
    In fact, the answer is no.
    Of course the answer is yes, but only so long as a majority of the population is Jewish, which is the case and thanks to demographics will remain so. If Israel is not a Jewish state then it has no reason to exist, and I don't want it to.

    Sammy Smooha, Professor of Sociology at the University of Haifa,defines Israel as an "ethnic democracy"..."...Although enjoying citizenship and voting rights, the minorities are treated as second class citizens, feared as a threat, excluded from the national power structure, and placed under some control"
    But a democratic state cannot privilege an ethnic majority while, and at the same time, provide "equal rights and equal treatment" for disadvantaged minorities.
    Much like most of your other sources, this one is yet again proven wrong by one simple reality: Ra'am is a member of the coalition, and quite clearly not kept from power, but rather has a lot of it.
    What does this mean? that Arabs aren't being kept from power by the racist government or this institution or another, but rather by their own political parties and their refusal, up until Ra'am did, to join the coalition or even negotiate with it. Lack of funding for Arab communities is also a result of the same issue: the coalition never needed to invest in them or pander to them, but it did need to do so for other sectors of the population. Such is the nature of a multi party democracy with sectarian parties: sectors will seek to increase funding for themselves, and as funding is not unlimited, this comes at the expense of sectors who remain in the opposition. As the Arab parties had never left the opposition up until now, this exacerbated the problem.
    Now Ra'am demanded funding for the Arab sector and voila, it happened. How easy was that? Hopefully this government lasts long enough to pass a budget so that that indeed happens, Arab-Israelis realise that they shouldn't vote for the Joint list but instead for Ra'am if they want actual results, Ra'am will grow stronger and join more coalitions in future and be able to attain more for their sector. You know, Democracy. Not muh racism.
    In 1947 the United Nations General Assembly passed Resolution 181 which partitioned the British Mandate of Palestine into a "Jewish state" and an "Arab state", giving Jews, who made 30% of the population, 56% per cent of the land. As the UN resolution 194 clarifies, Israel was founded on the illegal expulsion and forced flight of close to 700.000 indigenous Palestinians who became refugees who have the right to return to their homes.
    The vast majority of the 700,000 fled on their own, of course, and were not subject to expulsion. On the topic of expulsion though how about the expulsion and confiscation of possessions of 850,000 Jews from the Muslim world who today make the majority of the population of Israel?

    But even without even the refugees ( who in 2012 numbered between five and seven million),over 20% of Israel's population are not Jews, a fact that undermines the Israel's claim of being "Jewish".
    Errm.. in what way does it undermine that claim? What is this leap of logic?
    John McGarry explains that there is not much difference between an Herrenvolk democracy (South Africa apartheid) and an "ethnic democracy",
    .
    Except no minority is excluded from anything.


    One thing is certain, most Israeli Jews want Palestinians erased.
    Source? That's quite a claim to make out of the blue, and I certainly do not think it's true at all.


    There is a huge contradiction between the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, 1948...


    ...and the Clause 7A, Basic Law, The Knesset, 1985,


    There is only one solution: a two states solution,based on pre 1967 lines.UN two-state solution on 'pre-1967 lines'

    In reality this law was only used to ban Jewish far-right members from participating, such as multiple members of Otzma Yehudit, including their former leaders. While the Knesset has voted multiple times with this law as justification to bar a few Arab parties/members of parties, it was always overturned by the supreme court (except for when, as mentioned, they were embers of Jewish far-right parties).

    If you're waiting for a solution on the pre-67 lines you'll have to keep waiting for all eternity. It will not happen. It's time to move on.

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