Dune 2020 by Villeneuve has finished filming

[John Doe]

indeed the Atreides were descendants of the classical Greeks (the Achaeans if I remember correctly). A disappointment to me that very little reference was made to the Sardaukar in the books I read, little more than their upbringing on a horrible planet. It is also very disappointing that the Paul Atreides Jihad is hardly mentioned. (I read six or seven books of the saga, god knows why).

By the way, the Fremen are not described as religious fanatic losers (ISIS) at all. More like (surprise!) free men from the desert fighting the occupation forces and waiting for the rain (which will make their way of life disappear, obviously).

I read them all too, so long ago that my memory could play tricks on me. IIRC, fremen religion was imbedded within the tribal code of honor. The BG implanted the prophecy of a saviour/messiah in the fremen religion many generations prior (Jessica sees it when she acquires the memories of the past priestess). Once the fremen accepted Paul as their leader they followed his orders blindly because it is the fremen way.

The jihad was mentioned briefly, I remember a veteran fremen telling how he became disillusioned with it and Paul after swimming in the sea of a conquered planet after many battles far from home.

[mishkin]

Of course what you say is true, but I didnt have the impression they were a fanatic society (beyond the prophecy ting), or evil (regarding the analogy with isis). Herberts universe is feudal, and the fremen were not a less advanced or free society than, say, the Atreides.

[Kyriakos]

I wonder if they plan to adapt more of the books. The 2000 tv series did, but imo the plot of the next books is dull...

But what can you do, the spice must flow.

[Gaidin]

I read them all too, so long ago that my memory could play tricks on me. IIRC, fremen religion was imbedded within the tribal code of honor. The BG implanted the prophecy of a saviour/messiah in the fremen religion many generations prior (Jessica sees it when she acquires the memories of the past priestess). Once the fremen accepted Paul as their leader they followed his orders blindly because it is the fremen way.

It's called the Missionaria Protectiva. The BG have a much longer term plan than the Great Houses, the Emperor, the Spacing Guild, or CHOAM. Through religious engineering they implant seeds of prophecies generations in the past opening regions and planets to BG exploitation and, if needed, safety in dire situations. Paul and Jessica took advantage of this to find a place in the Fremen when on the run from the Harkonnens and, in fact, take the role of their messianic figure as he was readying to take on the Emperor.

While intended to forward the plans of the BG, as Paul was a very much independent Kwisatz Haderach, he basically stole their program from them and they couldn't control him. Especially once he blackmailed the Spacing Guild to fly the respective militaries back to their home planets and blackmailed the Emperor into surrender.

[Cyclops]

indeed the Atreides were descendants of the classical Greeks (the Achaeans if I remember correctly). A disappointment to me that very little reference was made to the Sardaukar in the books I read, little more than their upbringing on a horrible planet. It is also very disappointing that the Paul Atreides Jihad is hardly mentioned. (I read six or seven books of the saga, god knows why).

There's some flashbacks from PTSD'd Fremen in Dune Messiah remembering seeing the sea on other planets. I think its part of Herbert's style that you see intimate scenes on the edges of great events, there's a sort of "secret history" vibe. Its a really effective style and most entertaining but yeah, you miss some massive campaigns.

IIRC DM was meant to be Part 4 of Dune but the publisher cut it as the book was "too long". Its the last good book in the series for mine.

By the way, the Fremen are not described as religious fanatic losers (ISIS) at all. More like (surprise!) free men from the desert fighting the occupation forces and waiting for the rain (which will make their way of life disappear, obviously).

It was the 60's man. Islam was cool and noble. Lawrence of Arabia and all that.

[Infidel144]

And again he remembered the vision of fanatic legions following the green and black banner of the Atreides, pillaging and burning across the universe in the name of their prophet Muad'Dib. That must not happen, he told himself.


"Is that the name you wish, Muad'Dib?" Stilgar asked.


"I am an Atreides," Paul whispered, and then louder: "It's not right that I give up entirely the name my father gave me. Could I be known among you as Paul-Muad'Dib?"

[mishkin]

@Cyclops, I see, thanks, I suppose that when I read it, Islam still did not have the connotations that it can have now.

And again he remembered the vision of fanatic legions following the green and black banner of the Atreides, pillaging and burning across the universe in the name of their prophet Muad'Dib. That must not happen, he told himself.

Whats your point? Fremen followed Paul fanatically (true) or the Fremen society were "like isis"?

[Infidel144]

Whats your point? Fremen followed Paul fanatically (true) or the Fremen society were "like isis"?

It is a favorite passage.

[mishkin]

thanks for sharing

[Kyriakos]

It may be uncool to refer to fanatic jihadists as barbaric when it was just their way of life. Similar to the lives of any society, for example the Laestrygonians were just a bit taller than regular humans and ate people.

[mishkin]

I honestly have the feeling all this "fremen were like isis" is a bit of trolling.

informative note, Paul's jihad was not the first, the first was the Butlerian (?) jihad where humans fought fanatically against the machines and they established a society with very strict rules. You going to call them barbaric fanatic jihadists too? But nevermind ("I honestly have the feeling all this "fremen were like isis" is a bit of trolling").

P.S 2: and all because the author used the term jihad and its protagonists lived in the sand.

[Kyriakos]

Don't worry, in the new film it is called "crusade".

[mishkin]

Yes, I noted that. They try to placate this generation of snowflakes I guess.

[John Doe]

Yes, I noted that. They try to placate this generation of snowflakes I guess.

Doesn't bode well for the depiction of harkonnen, hardly the organic-fair trade type.

[Infidel144]

Don't worry, in the new film it is called "crusade".

Seriously?

I honestly have the feeling all this "fremen were like isis" is a bit of trolling.

The "all this", as far as I can tell, was one post by Papay (and I get the impression he was being serious), while Gaiden is refuting it, and I am sarcastically (if indirectly) mocking the assertion.

[mishkin]

Seriously?

Yes, you can hear it in the trailer.

The "all this", as far as I can tell, was one post by Papay (and I get the impression he was being serious), while Gaiden is refuting it, and I am sarcastically (if indirectly) mocking the assertion.

Surely you are aware of the deficiencies of sarcasm as a communicative tool. Dont forget that the message in which, perhaps exaggeratedly, I speak of "all this", comes right after one of Kyriakos speaking of fanatic jihadists. I agree with leaving this issue behind, in any case.

[Kyriakos]

I certainly want no part in this, don't blame me for your posts

[mishkin]

It would be nice if you took responsibility for what you write yourself.

[Kyriakos]

The book calls them fanatics, I don't have any issue with what the Fremen are, and am not invested in he book either so don't particularly care what the movie names them (btw, they don't really exist, Mishkin, so it's ok really).

[mishkin]

nope, the book does not call them fanatics, much less are they described as barbaric jihadist fanatics (your post).

what bothers me is the association "desert tribe with vague Islamic connotations" and "jihadist fanatics". Surely you understand that in today's world such associations (Islam and fundamentalism) are dangerous. If you think I'm going too far and your comments are totally innocent, sorry, I am not sorry.

P.S: Funny how we weren't going to talk more about it, huh?