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Thread: HRR information repertory

  1. #1
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default HRR information repertory

    Repertory of information about Holy Roman Empire

    I’d like to gather here information about HRR in the SSHIP so that we know what’s going on, how to deal with issues and why certain solutions were implemented. Also some bright ideas might be gathered but given the very scarce modding-time resources the SSHIP now has, I’d be very reluctant to have far-reaching ideas. After all, there’s HRR mod where a number of those bright ideas abound but will not be implement in the SSHIP (unless a dozen devoted modders appear, after all the HRR mod was not finished apparently exactly for this reason).
    I've found two short threads about HRR and they’re not up the purpose I’m starting this thread.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 16, 2017 at 11:12 AM.
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  2. #2
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Reserved.

  3. #3
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    I have had a look at the HRR provinces and a few questions arised:
    1) on the map there’s a town Brandenburg in province Brandenburg. I find it not-so historical at the beginning. Magdeburg was far more important and indeed the main point for the expansion / control over the future Brandenburg region (or DDR = GDR, if you like). If yes, then the position of the town should be moved to the west, at the Elbe – yeah, I know it should be in Saxony, but still. Alternatively, you may say that this province is about Polabians (Sorben) and the Brandenburg is actually their town Brenna (or Branibor). But then 1. It should be called Brenna, 2. It should belong to the Slavic rebels (what I think would be more historical than belonging to HRR: after the Slavic uprising of 983 it was taken by the Saxonian dukes only in 1157).
    2) the province Brandenburg could be called differently, for instance Nordmark or Polabia, at the beginning. The name Brandenburg is pertinent to a more recent times. But ok, in 13-14 century it may go with Brandenburg.
    3) there’re provinces “Nord Sachsen” and “Saxony”. First, they should go either way – both Sachsen, or both Saxony. Second, I’m a bit uneasy about using these names. In reality it was one duchy of Sachsen. But I see one need to make choices. I understand that the decision was taken in the past to have Bremen and Hamburg and Lubeck on the map - actually, they’re very close to each other, unsual for the size of the map - and cut provinces to them. My taste would be different (Hamburg for Sachsen, Osnabruck for Westfalen, add Meissen or Leipzig or even Erfurt in the middle for Lusatia or Thuringen) but I don’t think it should be touched unless there’s a full-time mapper. Anyway, why not use the names West Sachsen and Ost Sachsen ? Or - as it was in history - Westfalen and Ostfalen? Or Westfalen and Sachsen?

    Other questions:
    4) what do we know how the HRR emperor is elected? There’s an old thread about this but no answer was provided.
    5) is there any special script making life of HRR harder? I see plenty of opportunities here.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 16, 2017 at 01:07 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Jurand i respect your decision about make a new HRE thread and sure that you will improve it better than me or other players(you are a machine friend), but in my opinion i would like that sship developers will make a new thread for a FAQ list, new features includes in the upcoming release, things and support that modders need to have new ideas,information for make the mod easier and solve problems,all this is for have some central objectives how support you in make new traits or ancillaries or support Lifth in new scotland and norwegian roster, other things would make ''instructions'' for how play differentes factions in sship, advantages and disadvantages of differents units in the game, historicals objetives and strategies...but i think that no exist a lot of time for do this and modders are centered and also have real life hehe
    About HRE, the part that dont like so much is the region of Prussia and units, exist some mercenaries how prussians auxiliaries and prussians soldiers but these are from teutonic expansion and not historical in the mod due to models have teutonic shields and other incoherences, so could make new mercenaries units from Prussia,Riga... and also make new units for HRE, also maybe increase the power of the building of Hanseatic league(they were very important merchants and trade in baltic region), about cities and settlements sure that you know more things than me about germans, i only know a lot of about peninsula iberica,moors and also byzantines wars hehe
    So only say this, continue improve sship and thank to this many people learn real history in middle age...
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  5. #5

    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    1) Well Magdeburgs location just isn't really connected to the rest of the territory. Brandenburg meanwhile has a big history and was basically the main settlement in this region. Brandenburg also belonged to a german vassal at that time. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pribislaw_(Brandenburg) Altoug the surrounding area was fought over I believe.

    2) Nordmark would be good I think.
    3) Naming is not perfect, yes. Meissen was never that important I think, Erfurt was but not as much as bremen/hamburg/lübeck, and leipzig wasnt founded.
    4) The Emperor was elected by around 10-20 Kurfürsten.
    5) Well I basically gave them a usurper as heir. Which should make things more complicated and is historically correct. In the new beta, I also added another thing called favor of princes, which indicates your standing with the Fürsten and has effects on your settlements depending on your global standing.

  6. #6
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    @MWY
    1) Ok, I agree that Brandenburg should be the city there. However, I still think it shouldn't belong to HRR in 1132 - yes, there was a vassal, but was this vassalage effective? From the perspective of the game I still think it should be Slavic rebel province.
    2) Actually, I've changed my mind somehow: in 12c. Nordmark is better, but then Brandenburg is.
    3) Ok, I got it. But what about the names of the provinces: Westfalen (with Bremen) and Sachsen (with Hamburg)?
    4) I meant: in the SSHIP how the heir of HRR is chosen. I understand on the same basis as in the other factions?
    5) That's very good. I think it should be also applied to the Regnum Poloniae heir with a serious risk of civil war.

  7. #7
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Well, I'm not a specialist of the German history but the heir system is somehow inaccurate for HRE. As MWY mentioned, they had a system based on election (something similar to Novgorod). Same thing somehow for Italian factions (except Sicily).
    If you really want to represent that in game, you need to rethink the mechanic for that feature. Though, I'm not sure it can be done efficiently.
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  8. #8
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    This post follow my interest in HRR. It should result in modding the provincial titles for this part of Europe and in (possibly) improving the map (by somebody else). Now I describe what is in the current SSHIP version list and put forward a few proposal for changes.

    Please bear in mind:

    • Deep, deep compromises are needed due to M2TW engine mechanics – you need to suspend you disbelief occassionaly.
    • Even if many remarks on the choice of provinces, settlements and borders can be made, they’re unlikely to be addressed because of the modding resources. Changes on the map require re-modding of the map and making all the associated changes (ie. starting positions of generals and armies). Therefore I make them in italic only in the most glaring cases.
    • The SSHIP map should be valid for all centuries (12-16) despite settlements appeared and dwindled in the course of history, and provinces' names and borders changed. We need to compromise.
    • Concerning titles - all reservations I’ve put forward here are relevant (especially the fact that they should be possible to be used by any catholic faction and that ecclesiastical titles cannot be used).


    One of the systemic question is: should we use contemporary German (or Latin?) names or English/French ones? For the moment there’s a mess on the map: Saxony (in English), Lower Lorraine but Nord Sachsen or Franconia.

    In the proposals I put my preferred options I have strong opinions in red.

    Province: Brandenburg.
    Settlement: Brandenburg.
    Provincial title: Duke of Brandenburg – Should be changed to Markgraf von Brandenburg.

    Province: Holstein – I strongly propose to change it to Meklemburg. The bigger part of the current province is comprised of Meklemburg which developed over centuries. Holstein was just a small part of the current SSHIP province territory and half of it is actually in the Hamburg province. Furthermore, Lubice is on the map to provide for a city important for the Baltic trade and it was Meklemburg as a province (many cities there engaged in this trade).
    Settlement: Liubice – that’s ok, but it should be called Lübeck from 13 cent., At the beginning it’s correct, but in High and Late era this should be changed.
    Provincial title: Duke of Lübeck – If the name of the province is changed then Herzog von Meklemburg (or Markgraf von Meklemburg).

    Province: Saxony. I propose to change it to West Sachsen or rather Westfalen.
    Settlement: Bremen.
    Provincial title: Duke of Saxony. Should be changed to Herzog von Westfalen (or something different if Westfalen is not chosen).
    In the long modding run: city of Bremen should be moved south and become Osnabrueck or Muenster. The three cities (Bremen, Hamburg, Liubice) are too close to one another, gameplay-wise.

    Province: Nord Sachsen. I propose to change it to Ost Sachsen or Ostfalen or simply Sachsen.
    Settlement: Hamburg.
    Provincial title: Duke of Hamburg. Should be changed to Herzog von Hamburg ? Herzog von Hollstein? Or Herzog von Sachsen in case for Bremen “Herzog von Westfalen is chosen).
    In the long modding run: if city of Bremen stays where's now, then Hamburg should be moved much south and become Magdeburg. Or just make it so that there're Liubice, Osnabruck and Magdeburg instead of Liubice, Bremen and Hamburg. In any case, I think that these 3 cities (Libice, Hamburg, Bremen) are positioned too close gameplay-wise. The result is: a huge empty land south far until Nurmberg and west far until Coellen.

    Province: Lower Lorraine. Why not Niederlothringen?
    Settlement: Coellen.
    Provincial title: Duke of Lower Lorraine. Should be changed to Herzog von Niederlothringen. (the lord of Coellen was an archbishop).

    Province: Upper Lorraine. Why not Oberlothringen?
    Settlement: Trier.
    Provincial title: Duke of Upper Lorraine. Should be changed to Herzog von Oberlothringen (the lord of Trier was an archbishop).

    Province: Franconia. I like this name very much, I think it should stay… but what about Franken?
    Settlement: Frankfurt.
    Provincial title: Grand Duke of Frankonia. Should be changed to Herzog von Franken. (well, was there an Erzherzog or Grossherzog? I think it was only Rudolph IV of Austria, who created title of Erzherzog.

    Province: Rhein. I don’t like this name, it’s artificial to my mind. But I’ve got no idea how to change it.
    Settlement: Speyer.
    Provincial title: Duke of Speyer. Should be changed to Herzog von Speyer.

    Province: Lower Swabia. I’d propose to change it to Elsass: territory is roughly ok, the position of the city also can go. Actually, I’m not sure Niederschwaben existed as a name, I’d like somebody to tell it.
    Settlement: Basel.
    Provincial title: Duke of Swabia. Should be changed to Herzog von Basel. (or rather Elsass, if change f the name of the province is made)
    In the long modding run: city of Basel should be moved slightly north and become Strassburg.

    Province: Upper Swabia. If Lower Swabia would be changed into Elsass then it should become simply Schwaben.
    Settlement: Ulm. I think it should be outright renamed Augsburg. The position is more-or-less ok, and Augsburg was more important throughout Middle Ages.
    Provincial title: (haven’t found) Herzog von Schwaben.
    In the long modding run: city of Ulm should be moved slightly east (on the other side of the river) and indeed become Augsburg.

    Province: Nordgau.
    Settlement: Nuoremberc. In High and Late era this might be changed to Nürnberg (well, I'm not sure about it).
    Provincial title: Margrave of Nordgau. Perhaps should be changed to: Markgraf von Nordgau.

    Province: Bavaria. I like the Latin name. But if we’d stick to the German names, then Bayern.
    Settlement: Regensburg.
    Provincial title: Duke of Bavaria. Should be changed to Herzog von Bayern.
    In the long modding run: I’m not sure if the city of Regensburg shouldn’t be moved south-east and become Salzburg. Just consider it as an option.

    Province: Austria. I like the Latin name. But if we’d stick to the German names, then perhaps Österreich.
    Settlement: Wien.
    Provincial title: Margrave of Austria. Should be changed to Markgraf von Österreich.

    Province: Carinthia. I like the Latin name. But if we’d stick to the German names, then Kärnten. However, the province is on the border with other nations and was inhabited also by the Slavs, so perhaps a Latin name is better.
    Settlement: Freiberg. It’s hard to believe it’s been important for so many centuries, but I’ve got no further insights.
    Provincial title: Duke of Freiberg. Should be changed to Herzog von Kärnten.

    Province: Friesland. This is a compromise for most of the Middle Ages (Holland, Utrecht were distinct entities, while term Friesland encompassed the whole region only in 7-8th century, I think) but we need to make it.
    Settlement: Utrecht.
    Provincial title: Duke of Utrecht. Should be changed to Herzog von Utrecht or some other title?

    Province: Brabant.
    Settlement: Loven.
    Provincial title: Duke of Brabant. Should be changed to Herzog von Brabant?

    Please, comment.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 22, 2017 at 09:59 AM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    For me is consistent and reasonable but it would be better if some german people give their opinion about this, maybe MWY could help in this, about language in their tittles, for me i would like have the most accurate in middle age, so if in Germany in middle ages they spoke in latin or german so be it
    you are doing a wonderful job Jurand!
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  10. #10
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Need to make some researches and will revert
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  11. #11

    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Short thoughts:

    Moving/renaming cities:
    Bremen and Hamburg were THE most important cities there. Magdeburg follows closely.
    Regensburg again was way more important than anything else in bavaria.
    Ulm was the capital of swabian dukes/the staufer-guys. Altough augsburg was important aswell.
    Moving basel to straßbourgh would create another hole in the map, and I think (not sure) basel was more important, especially because it represents the swiss-region.

    Titles:
    Mostly good and fitting. I also like latin ones but then we have to find latin names for all the provinces... which might be difficult.
    Utrecht should be "Graf von Holland".
    For basel.. I have no clue. "Graf der Schweiz/Schwyz" might be fitting.
    Speyer should have "Graf von Speyergau". The territory should be Speyergau or you could split up Franken in "Nordfranken"(Frankfurt) and "Südfranken"(Speyer).
    Hamburg should be "Herzog von Sachsen".
    Bremen is difficult. I think the most fitting would be "Ostsachsen" and "Westsachsen" for Hamburg and Bremen. For the title... well fitting would be Erzbischof. But I think "Graf von Bremen" would be okay aswell.
    For Lubeck, well.. Mecklenburg should be okay. But I would call it "Markgraf" rather than "Herzog" since it was a Mark at gamestart.


    Oh and what about Bohemia? Does the ruler there get a "König von Böhmen" title?

    Some sources:
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...000_map-de.svg
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...0/HRR_1400.png
    Last edited by MWY; March 22, 2017 at 01:23 PM.

  12. #12
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Quote Originally Posted by MWY View Post
    Short thoughts:

    Moving/renaming cities:
    Bremen and Hamburg were THE most important cities there. Magdeburg follows closely.
    Regensburg again was way more important than anything else in bavaria.
    Ulm was the capital of swabian dukes/the staufer-guys. Altough augsburg was important aswell.
    Moving basel to straßbourgh would create another hole in the map, and I think (not sure) basel was more important, especially because it represents the swiss-region.

    Titles:
    Mostly good and fitting. I also like latin ones but then we have to find latin names for all the provinces... which might be difficult.
    Utrecht should be "Graf von Holland".
    For basel.. I have no clue. "Graf der Schweiz/Schwyz" might be fitting.
    Speyer should have "Graf von Speyergau". The territory should be Speyergau or you could split up Franken in "Nordfranken"(Frankfurt) and "Südfranken"(Speyer).
    Hamburg should be "Herzog von Sachsen".
    Bremen is difficult. I think the most fitting would be "Ostsachsen" and "Westsachsen" for Hamburg and Bremen. For the title... well fitting would be Erzbischof. But I think "Graf von Bremen" would be okay aswell.
    For Lubeck, well.. Mecklenburg should be okay. But I would call it "Markgraf" rather than "Herzog" since it was a Mark at gamestart.

    Oh and what about Bohemia? Does the ruler there get a "König von Böhmen" title?
    Bremen, Hamburg, Magdeburg, Lubeck - I still think we need to take into account gameplay. There're 3 cities that are too close and there's a hole south of them. Switch Hamburg to Magdeburg. However, this is a work for future, don't bother now. Graf von Bremen and Herzog von Sachsen are good - what about calling the provinces Westfalen and Sachsen then?
    Regensburg - ok, I've got it.
    Ulm - I think we need to take into account the whole medieval period. I'm for Augsburg. But a player can also change the name by himself, as I do with Kernave (to Vilnius) or Twangste (to Koenigsberg) or Halych (to Lwow).
    Basel - well, it's perhaps a good argument that Schweiz should have something... Why not to call the province Helvetia then? It's getting important only later in the Middle Ages, but still it's worth. Schwyz was just one canton. The title "Graf Helvetiae"?
    Idea to be analysed much later: move Speyer south to become Strassburg (province Rhein becomes Elsass), move Basel east to become Zurich (as it is in the HRR 0.8 mod) (province Helvetia), move Ulm slightly east to become Augsburg. Gameplaywise is good, and not unhistorical.
    I like the idea of having Nordfranken (Frankfurt) and Südfranken (Speyer).
    Bohemia - I think "Rex Bohemiae" is better. And "Comes Olomucii" as well. Both provinces should be distinguished (no Herzog or Graf) as they stayed Slavic (unlike Brandenburg or Meklemburg).
    Meklemburg - yes, Markgraf von Meklemburg.

    Provinces with names of the titles and descriptions - the benefits will be distributed according to the descriptions based on the rules described here.

    Olomuc ___ Comes Olomucii ___ In charge of ___ the land of forests.
    Prague ___ Dux Bohemiae ___ In charge of ___ the land of men fighting enemies bravely, digging silver deep, praying to God devotedly.
    Brandeburg ___ Markgraf von Brandenburg ___ In charge of ___ the swampy land of ferocious warriors.
    Bremen ___ Graf von Bremen ___ In charge of ___ the rich lowland of traders, craftsmen and monks.
    Hamburg ___ Herzog von Sachsen ___ In charge of ___ the vibrant trading hub of the north.
    Coellen ___ Herzog von Niederlothringen ___ In charge of ___ the opulent ecclesiastical heart of the Germans with splendid culture and flourishing trade.
    Trier ___ Herzog von Oberlothringen ___ In charge of ___ the land of wine, trade and cathedrals.
    Frankfurt ___ Herzog von Franken ___ In charge of ___ the land of trade, viticulture and noble courts full of goliards, sculptors and painters.
    Speyer ___ Herzog von Speyer ___ In charge of ___ the land of kings' tombs, warring knights and learned siege experts.
    Basel ___ Graf von Basel ___ In charge of ___ the land of the mountains where mines and trade routes ensure opulence.
    Ulm ___ Herzog von Schwaben ___ In charge of ___ the land of strong warlords.
    Nuromberc ___ Markgraf von Nordgau ___ In charge of ___ the borderland where trade thrives and knights' spirit is high.
    Regensburg ___ Herzog von Bayern ___ In charge of ___ the land of powerful church and thriving trade.
    Wien ___ Markgraf von Österreich ___ In charge of ___ the borderlands of the empire where all men excel in warcraft.
    Freiberg ___ Herzog von Kärnten ___ In charge of ___ the towns hid in the mountains rich in silver, lead and iron.
    Utrecht ___ Graf von Holland ___ In charge of ___ the feritile lowlands where trade and agriculture flourish.
    Loven ___ Herzog von Brabant ___ In charge of ___ the land of industrious merchants, skilled artisans and laborious peasants.

    I thik all the titles sound good, the only doubt I've got concerns that Graf von Basel... Doesn't sound good. Furthermore, I've got no idea about the use of the word "zu" at that time. Graf zu Basel? Herzog der Alpen? (to provide variety in the names).
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 25, 2017 at 12:40 AM.

  13. #13
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Quote Originally Posted by MWY View Post
    1) Well Magdeburgs location just isn't really connected to the rest of the territory. Brandenburg meanwhile has a big history and was basically the main settlement in this region. Brandenburg also belonged to a german vassal at that time. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pribislaw_(Brandenburg) Altoug the surrounding area was fought over I believe.
    MWY, just another go on this region, in particular on the initial conditions (1132) of three provinces: Pomorze (with Stettin/Szczecin), Holstein (to become Meklemburg), Brandenburg (Nordmark at that time).
    I struck me at the very beginning that Pomorze in SSHIP started in the Polish hands. Yes, Boleslaw the Wrymouth campaigned there, but his success was rather temporary. As it happens, in 1132 Stettin (and even Rugen with Arkona) was in the Polish hands, but it was lost soon (1135 the Poles made this territory vassal to the emperor). So de facto ownership was very weak and in the M2TW engine should this region should not be considered as belonging to the Polish faction. It was very different from the situation eg. with Pomerelia (Gdansk=Danzig), where the Polish grip over the region was strong.
    Similarly, I think that Brenna might have been technically HRE vassal but de facto it was in the next few year the Saxon lord made a military effort to effectively take this territory from the Slavs.
    Similarly, Liubice (Meklemburg to be) was also in the hands of the Slavs, making serious damage through piracy even to the Norwegians (Konighalla 1136). There're fightings and Liubice was funded only in 1143 (after a settlement in the neighbourhood was destroyed).

    On this basis I think that a different situation in 1132 would reflect better in within the terms of the M2TW engine:
    - Meklemburg (Liubice) should be Slav rebels (as it is)
    - Brandenburg should be either Slav rebels or just paying tribute to the HRR, but no part of the HRR
    - Pomorze should be either Slav rebels or just paying tribute to the Kingdom of Poland, but no part of Poland.

  14. #14
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Just to start bringing my 2 cents in here. Below the titles used in Germany (note than some of them may not fit for the period covered by SSHIP):
    - Imperial title: Kaiser, Kaiserin
    - King and Queen: König, Königin

    The German system often makes use of the prefix "Erb" for the heir to a title as with "Erbgraf" whereas the British system prefers using a lesser "courtesy title". William Addams Reitwiesner writes:
    "Erb" in German (in this sense) means "hereditary"[. . . .] The oldest son and heir of a Mediatized Count would be an "Erbgraf". The oldest son and heir of a Grand Duke would be an "Erbgroßherzog". And so on. Another way of spelling the title would be "Erb-Prinz" or "Erb-Graf", etc. The wives of these men have equivalent feminine titles, such as"Erbprinzessin", "Erbgräfin", "Erbgroßherzogin", etc...
    - Grand Duke: Großherzog, Großherzogin
    - Duke: Herzog, Herzogin
    - Markess: Markgraf, Markgräfin
    - Earl, Count, and Graf: Graf, Gräfin; Landgraf, Landgräfin (In English, Landgrave, Landgravine); Pfalzgraf, Pfalzgräfin (In English, Count-Palatine, Countess-Palatine)
    - Baron: Baron, Baronin; Freiherr, Freifrau

    The terms "Baron, Baronin", can be found in use in German lands, but apparently not that commonly. Freiherr and Freifrau are preferred, and there seems to be a perception that "Baron" is bit under a "Freiherr". "Freiherrin" seems to be an obsolete form for a baron's wife. D.A. Willis comments:
    Freifrau is a wife of Freiherr, Freiin is his daughter. I used to think that Freiin was an abbreviation of Freiherrin, but I was quickly corrected by several Freiherren and Freiinen (plural of Freiin). This is the only case in German that I am aware of where the wife and daughter have different words for their titles.
    The status of barons varies. It can be a very high title or something of little consequence. It is definitely a noble title, however, and needs to be clearly distinguished from "baronet".

    Now, I need to look which title for which region
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; March 27, 2017 at 07:08 AM.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  15. #15

    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Thoughts:

    Hamburg: I know Magdeburg was important, but Hamburg was a fortress and a center of mission and crusading at that time. I don't think it can be cut. If we REALLY need to get rid of something, it should be lubeck, altough the obodrites are homeless then.

    Ulm: I am talking about the medieval period. I am talking about the staufer-dynasty which had it's first german king at 1138... and one of their mainly visited and built up cities was ulm. It also became a free city pretty quickly.

    Basel: I agree about the title, not about it becoming zurich. I made the decision for the current settlements based on a lot of research. So if you want to change them, it would be good if you made arguments about why they were more important in that period. "this mod has that settlements aswell" is not a valid argument.

    Bohemia: Agreed.

    Well, technically, Stettin was occupied by poland. However, what you say is true. We could make Stettin rebel I think. I'm still not completely convinced about brandenburg, since this ruler was friendly towards the HRE and it was basically a given that his lands would belong to the HRE after his death. It would open up the map a bit though, which would be a good thing.

  16. #16
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Hamburg - ok, I got it. I understand that "Graf von Bremen and Herzog von Sachsen" are ok. The provincial names: we can call the provinces Westfalen and Sachsen?
    Ulm - ok., let's leave it like this. Perhaps in the High era we can rename it? Or Late era?
    Basel - ok, not becoming Zurich. So the title should be "Graf Helvetiae"?
    To confirm that the starting situation in 1132 will be: Slav rebels for three provinces: Meklemburg (Liubice), Brandenburg (Brandenburg), Szczecin (Pomorze).
    No comments were made on Ober- and Niederlothringen - can they go in this form?
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 28, 2017 at 11:50 PM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Reading my above post again, I might have sounded a bit too annoyed. It's just that I did a lot of research, and doing it all again to point out why I chose those settlements is annoying. Still, if you have information on certain settlements, or even better, put up a direct comparison between two settlements and argue why one of the two was more important, I'm always open for discussion and change.

    Westfalen and Sachsen are okay. I would still prefer Westsachsen and Ostsachsen, since technically Westfalen was part of sachsen if I read that correctly and some parts of it were under the control of cologne. Not a major issue though.

    Ulm: Sure, can talk about that.

    Basel: I think it should be Graf von Helvetia just to stick with the wording for other titles.

    Ober- and Niederlothringen are fine. Slav rebels aswell.

  18. #18
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Quote Originally Posted by MWY View Post
    Reading my above post again, I might have sounded a bit too annoyed. It's just that I did a lot of research, and doing it all again to point out why I chose those settlements is annoying. Still, if you have information on certain settlements, or even better, put up a direct comparison between two settlements and argue why one of the two was more important, I'm always open for discussion and change.
    Actually, I perceived it as a normal discussion . I'm not a specialist in this period and in this area so I just wanted to know it. I've perhaps just patchy knowledge, as in the case of the Magdeburg domination (might be 10 c. phenonmenon) or Augsburg (might be 15-16 century). I've been to the Ulm cathedral and I remember it was the tallest in Germany :-). I think the discussion is good for the documentation purposes.

    So the agreed modifications for 1132 would are:
    - Slav rebels for three provinces: Meklemburg (Liubice), Brandenburg (Brandenburg), Szczecin (Pomorze).
    - Bremen province: Westfalen
    - Hamburg province: Sachsen
    - Liubice province: Meklemburg
    - Coellen province: Niederlothringen
    - Trier province: Oberlothringen
    - Frankfurt province: Nordfranken
    -
    Speyer province:Südfranken
    - Basel province: Helvetia (title: Graf Helvetiae)
    - Ulm province: Schwaben

    Let's take the view of the whole period: 12-16 centuries. Very difficult, very. I haven't seen names Oberschwaben and Niederschaben yet. Alpen are wrong, I think. For centuries late 13th-16th the best would indeed be Helvetia.

    Furthermore, I wonder - taking into account that Liubice are in the game and only later the historically-playing player is supposed to change this name into Luebeck - if we shouldn't call the city of Brandenburg in Slavic: Brennabor. Then a player playing HRE would rename it Brandenburg and a player playing Poland - Branibór.

    (I hesitated, but now I'm sure about Brabant. Loven was the capital of the Duchy and perhaps most important city 11-13 centuries (then overshadowed by Antwerp, and also by Brussels). Of course, in the SSHIP there's Liege within the province, but Loven looks more right in the context.)

    EDIT: in the other thread MWY said he meant the previous intervention that he agreed to Graf Helvetiae and Helvetia. Therefore I've put" Basel -> Helvetia, Ulm -> Schwaben
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; July 21, 2017 at 10:12 AM.

  19. #19
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Not sure it will help but the title for Brandenburg should be marquess (or markgraf in German).
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  20. #20
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Not sure it will help but the title for Brandenburg should be marquess (or markgraf in German).
    I agree - I've already proposed it and MWY didn't oppose.

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