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Thread: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

  1. #361

    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Why would Armenia want to violate the ceasefire?
    You tell me. Why would they shell out to practically all sides of their occupied borders when Azerbaijani are only threatening to move in from one direction? Why would their prime minister vow that there can be no diplomatic solution while calling out on random Armenian citizens to form bands to fight in Karabakh? Why did Armenian defense minister last year openly talked about new war with new territories?

    Rationalizing the Tonoyan Doctrine: Armenia’s Active Deterrence Strategy
    And in late March, during a visit to the United States, Tonoyan openly rebuked the Azerbaijani side’s zero-sum “land for peace” formula for conflict resolution, in which a bilateral settlement would require that the Armenian side first make territorial concessions to Azerbaijan. Instead, he called on Armenia to prepare to pursue “new war for new territories” (Aravot.am, March 30).
    The Armenian Issue

  2. #362
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    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You tell me.
    No, I insist, you tell me.
    Why would they shell out to practically all sides of their occupied borders when Azerbaijani are only threatening to move in from one direction?
    Why are they shelling their enemy.. in a war?
    The map you posted quite clearly shows that Azeri forces entered Artsakh's territory from more than 1 direction, are they supposed to just never attempt to regain their positions? lol.

    Why would their prime minister vow that there can be no diplomatic solution while calling out on random Armenian citizens to form bands to fight in Karabakh?
    The answer is right there in your link: Everything that is acceptable to Armenia isn't acceptable to Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan knows it can conquer the entire disputed territory without any major power intervening, so it has no reason to negotiate and compromise, hence it started this round of fighting in the first place. It's obvious.

    Why did Armenian defense minister last year openly talked about new war with new territories?

    Rationalizing the Tonoyan Doctrine: Armenia’s Active Deterrence Strategy
    Don't know.

  3. #363

    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    The answer is right there in your link: Everything that is acceptable to Armenia isn't acceptable to Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan knows it can conquer the entire disputed territory without any major power intervening, so it has no reason to negotiate and compromise, hence it started this round of fighting in the first place. It's obvious.
    it is, except Azeries aren't alone in this endeavor and was in not for the full backing of the 'mad dog' of today's politics, aka Mr Erdogan, Azeries would have never ventured into this. so a 'major power' did in fact intervene, but alas on one side only.

    btw, on the violation of the ceasefire and who wants to carry on, it was Azerbaijan that consistently rejected the international observers been deployed on the line of contact. from Rep. Frank Pallone:
    We would have definitive knowledge of which side violated the US-brokered ceasefire today if Azeris would allow international observers to monitor the line of contact, as prescribed by the 2015 Royce-Engel agreement.

  4. #364

    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    No, I insist, you tell me.
    Why are they shelling their enemy.. in a war?
    The map you posted quite clearly shows that Azeri forces entered Artsakh's territory from more than 1 direction, are they supposed to just never attempt to regain their positions? lol.
    The answer is right there in your link: Everything that is acceptable to Armenia isn't acceptable to Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan knows it can conquer the entire disputed territory without any major power intervening, so it has no reason to negotiate and compromise, hence it started this round of fighting in the first place. It's obvious.
    Don't know.
    Azerbaijanis mostly attacked from the north and south. Northern front have been relatively calm. Most of the focus has been on the southern front which is where the advances have been happening. Yet, earlier there were strikes on the north, east and south. Tartar, which is divorced from the front lines was shelled as well. If Armenian shelling was focused on the southern front you'd have a point in saying that Armenians were merely responding to Azerbaijani advances.

    Nice dodge on Pashinyan's and Tonoyan's words but its a testament to delusional demeanor of the Armenian government. Ultimately, they rely on external intervention in favor of them. For that to happen they need Azerbaijanis to act carelessly and target Armenia proper. So far they played safe despite many Armenian strikes on Azerbaijani cities. Anyways, if Azerbaijanis had every reason to violate the ceasefire they didn't really have a reason to agree on it in the first place. Especially since they don't enjoy the positive bias Armenia enjoys.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkiss View Post
    it is, except Azeries aren't alone in this endeavor and was in not for the full backing of the 'mad dog' of today's politics, aka Mr Erdogan, Azeries would have never ventured into this. so a 'major power' did in fact intervene, but alas on one side only.
    While Azerbaijan had Turkey and Israel on its side, Armenia had Russia and Iran. It's just that Turkey and Israel better support than Russia and Iran.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkiss View Post
    btw, on the violation of the ceasefire and who wants to carry on, it was Azerbaijan that consistently rejected the international observers been deployed on the line of contact. from Rep. Frank Pallone:
    Yes, a senator who had no place in the negotiations, who constantly conveyed Armenian talking points, is the perfect source for that...
    The Armenian Issue

  5. #365

    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    I hope they break it even more, because ceasefire is nothing but a play to save the Armenians, it offers nothing to Azerbaijan. Azerbaijani side repeatedly tells the only peaceful solution, armed Armenians will either entirely withdraw or surrender, which Armenia has no intention of, Armenia has no intention of making any compromises at all, they are persistent on retaining complete authority over Karabagh, so what's there to stop and talk? This is a historic event, too important to be a tool for the American election propaganda, they should just shut up and focus on Hunter Biden or something.

  6. #366
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    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    I hope they break it even more
    lol. POVG at least tries to warp reality into making the warmongers the good guys. You're straight up owning up to it. thx for that

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  7. #367

    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    Couldn't care less, everyone is free to offer an alternative solution. So far all i see are attempts to stop Azerbaijan and let this go on for another 30 years. Azerbaijan is doing what it is forced to do and it shouldn't feel apologetic about it or care about the labels that hypocrites put on them.

  8. #368
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    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    I hope they break it even more, because ceasefire is nothing but a play to save the Armenians, it offers nothing to Azerbaijan. Azerbaijani side repeatedly tells the only peaceful solution, armed Armenians will either entirely withdraw or surrender, which Armenia has no intention of, Armenia has no intention of making any compromises at all, they are persistent on retaining complete authority over Karabagh, so what's there to stop and talk? This is a historic event, too important to be a tool for the American election propaganda, they should just shut up and focus on Hunter Biden or something.
    I support this as well if only so the Turks continue to shoot themselves in the foot everywhere they go. Turkey's support of the Azeris is causing an even bigger divide between Turkey and NATO and its neighbors. Its making it a lot easier to isolate Turkey and contain them.
    Last edited by Vanoi; October 27, 2020 at 06:51 AM.

  9. #369
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    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    I wondering, if Putin is losing his patience with Erdo putting Russia's backyard in flames. Although its another region, it looks like waving the fence post...

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54693472
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; October 27, 2020 at 07:13 AM.
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  10. #370

    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    I support this as well if only so the Turks continue to shoot themselves in the foot everywhere they go. Turkey's support of the Azeris is causing an even bigger divide between Turkey and NATO and its neighbors. Its making it a lot easier to isolate Turkey and contain them.
    Out of all the conflicts, Turkey's support for Azerbaijan is the last one to create a divide between Turkey and NATO. Azerbaijan taking its lands back hurts Russia and Iran while it helps NATO.
    The Armenian Issue

  11. #371
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    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Out of all the conflicts, Turkey's support for Azerbaijan is the last one to create a divide between Turkey and NATO. Azerbaijan taking its lands back hurts Russia and Iran while it helps NATO.
    Its not hurting Iran nor Russia at all. The Azeris owning the NK does not change one thing for Russia or Iran. Azerbaijan would barely be of any use in any conflict involving Russia or Iran. No Russians or Iranians are dying in this conflict nor are either of their militaries bogged down in conflict.

    This war helps Azerbaijan alone and simply helps further Turkish interests.

  12. #372
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Azerbaijanis mostly attacked from the north and south. Northern front have been relatively calm. Most of the focus has been on the southern front which is where the advances have been happening. Yet, earlier there were strikes on the north, east and south. Tartar, which is divorced from the front lines was shelled as well. If Armenian shelling was focused on the southern front you'd have a point in saying that Armenians were merely responding to Azerbaijani advances.
    Again.. the point you're trying to make here is that during war you shouldn't shell your enemies..?
    Nice dodge on Pashinyan's and Tonoyan's words but its a testament to delusional demeanor of the Armenian government. Ultimately, they rely on external intervention in favor of them. For that to happen they need Azerbaijanis to act carelessly and target Armenia proper. So far they played safe despite many Armenian strikes on Azerbaijani cities. Anyways, if Azerbaijanis had every reason to violate the ceasefire they didn't really have a reason to agree on it in the first place. Especially since they don't enjoy the positive bias Armenia enjoys.
    Wasn't Azerbaijan's minister of defence recently talking about bombing Armenia in a way that would set off an explosion similar to what we saw in Beirut?
    You should be well aware that sometimes governments try to earn some nationalist support by saying overly aggressive things, hence I don't give much weight to Tonoyan's statements. As for Pashinyan's, I didn't dodge anything, I addressed it directly.
    So you're saying that the Armenian strategy is to.. lose... because if they lose badly enough.. they'll win?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    I hope they break it even more, because ceasefire is nothing but a play to save the Armenians, it offers nothing to Azerbaijan. Azerbaijani side repeatedly tells the only peaceful solution, armed Armenians will either entirely withdraw or surrender, which Armenia has no intention of, Armenia has no intention of making any compromises at all, they are persistent on retaining complete authority over Karabagh, so what's there to stop and talk? This is a historic event, too important to be a tool for the American election propaganda, they should just shut up and focus on Hunter Biden or something.
    What compromise is Azerbaijan willing to make? genuinely asking.

  13. #373

    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    They, for multiple times expressed a willingness for a new kind of an autonomy, which as far as i see is firmly rejected by Armenians therefore never even discussed, it is irrevelant whether Armenians consider it serious or not, the offer is officially there. I think if Armenians officially gave up on their claims over Karabagh, Azerbaijan would cede a thin buffer zone between western reaches of Karabagh and Armenia proper under the supervision of Russia perhaps, Azerbaijanis know their limits, as long as it is a near complete victory, they can forsake minor things. Its their territory they don't even need to compromise, but for a smooth transtion they have to.
    Last edited by Tureuki; October 27, 2020 at 10:27 AM.

  14. #374

    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Its not hurting Iran nor Russia at all. The Azeris owning the NK does not change one thing for Russia or Iran. Azerbaijan would barely be of any use in any conflict involving Russia or Iran. No Russians or Iranians are dying in this conflict nor are either of their militaries bogged down in conflict.
    This war helps Azerbaijan alone and simply helps further Turkish interests.
    The Ganja gap is pretty important to NATO, or even the Western world. They certainly wouldn't want Russia taking control of it. Iran also wants as little of Azerbaijani as they can since they have a large Azerbaijani minority. Sigh... Do some Googleing please.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Again.. the point you're trying to make here is that during war you shouldn't shell your enemies..?
    Sigh... You're arguing as if you never argued that Armenians were merely shelling against advancing Azerbaijani forces. OK, your funeral.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Wasn't Azerbaijan's minister of defence recently talking about bombing Armenia in a way that would set off an explosion similar to what we saw in Beirut?
    I don't know. Was it? Nothing shows up on Google. What's the relevance though?


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    You should be well aware that sometimes governments try to earn some nationalist support by saying overly aggressive things, hence I don't give much weight to Tonoyan's statements. As for Pashinyan's, I didn't dodge anything, I addressed it directly.
    I guess only Armenians have this right...


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    So you're saying that the Armenian strategy is to.. lose... because if they lose badly enough.. they'll win?
    In a way, yes. They likely didn't think they'd lose this badly before someone acted. They've been trying to frame this conflict as genocide have been being inflicted on them, that it was the battle between West vs. East, that it was Christianity against Islam. They assumed that at least Russia would intervene directly but that didn't pan out too as Russia had to come out and explicitly state that they could not intervene since the conflict was not on Armenian land.
    The Armenian Issue

  15. #375
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    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The Ganja gap is pretty important to NATO, or even the Western world.
    Its actually not. Ganja used to be important for Afghanistan but that war has winded down considerably and the US is looking to withdraw.

    Meanwhile the other reasoning you have mentioned before is overland trade routes. While its true that Azerbaijan allows trade to go to Europe without going through Russia or Iran, its a rather moot point considering any trade heading to Azerbaijan from Asia still has to cross either Iran or Russia before it reaches Azerbaijan.
    They certainly wouldn't want Russia taking control of it.
    Good thing there is no evidence Russia is seeking to invade Azerbaijan or even place troops in the disputed NK territory. Thus the Ganja gap is fine.

    Iran also wants as little of Azerbaijani as they can since they have a large Azerbaijani minority. Sigh... Do some Googleing please.
    Iran is not afraid of Azerbaijan regardless of the Azeri population it has in Northern Iran.

    Maybe you should do some googling. You might realize that Azerbaijan's military stands absolutely no chance against the Iranian Army. That Azerbaijan cannot threaten Iran at all.

    If the Azeris think Armenian SCUDs raining down on their cities is bad, Iran could lob hundreds of missiles and rockets at Azerbaijan all day if it wanted to.
    Last edited by Vanoi; October 27, 2020 at 12:44 PM.

  16. #376
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    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    They, for multiple times expressed a willingness for a new kind of an autonomy, which as far as i see is firmly rejected by Armenians therefore never even discussed, it is irrevelant whether Armenians consider it serious or not, the offer is officially there. I think if Armenians officially gave up on their claims over Karabagh, Azerbaijan would cede a thin buffer zone between western reaches of Karabagh and Armenia proper under the supervision of Russia perhaps, Azerbaijanis know their limits, as long as it is a near complete victory, they can forsake minor things. Its their territory they don't even need to compromise, but for a smooth transtion they have to.
    So on one hand you're straight up admitting to Azerbaijan breaking multiple ceasefire agreements it has made, and yet you want the Armenians (both in Armenia proper and in Arzakh) to take them by their word, give them all what they want, and just expect the ethnonationalist oppression etc. to not happen. Even though they straight away went ahead and renamed towns that are located in Karabakh proper, giving Turkic names to Armenian settlements. Even though they're shooting prisoners right away and shelling churches intentionally for no military reason. Even though they, as you yourself admit, have no issues with breaking their word whenever they feel like it.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; October 27, 2020 at 02:41 PM.

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  17. #377

    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    So on one hand you're straight up admitting to Azerbaijan breaking multiple ceasefire agreements it has made, and yet you want the Armenians (both in Armenia proper and in Arzakh) to take them by their word, give them all what they want, and just expect the ethnonationalist oppression etc. to not happen. Even though they straight away went ahead and renamed towns that are located in Karabakh proper, giving Turkic names to Armenian settlements. Even though they're shooting prisoners right away and shelling churches intentionally for no military reason. Even though they, as you yourself admit, have no issues with breaking their word whenever they feel like it.
    For PointofErdoGun and Tureuki, Armenian lives don't matter at all. For that matter, the lives of Azeris don't matter either, since they are both warmongering and want to see the war continue, which is disgusting. For them, Armenians should have lain down and died a century ago, and they should be doing that now. It's racist, hateful, and genocidal.

    In any case, back to the war. The Azerbaijanis have occupied the southern region, which is entirely a flat plain that is very difficult to defend (which is why the Armenians retreated from those positions). The war is just getting started now that Azerbaijan's blitzkrieg to conquer all of NK quickly has failed.
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  18. #378

    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    Quote Originally Posted by Drtad View Post
    For PointofErdoGun and Tureuki, Armenian lives don't matter at all. For that matter, the lives of Azeris don't matter either, since they are both warmongering and want to see the war continue, which is disgusting. For them, Armenians should have lain down and died a century ago, and they should be doing that now. It's racist, hateful, and genocidal.

    In any case, back to the war. The Azerbaijanis have occupied the southern region, which is entirely a flat plain that is very difficult to defend (which is why the Armenians retreated from those positions). The war is just getting started now that Azerbaijan's blitzkrieg to conquer all of NK quickly has failed.
    What's disgusting is to lie about what people argue and then bank of suffering of thousands of people to take an online jab at people.
    The Armenian Issue

  19. #379
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    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    They, for multiple times expressed a willingness for a new kind of an autonomy, which as far as i see is firmly rejected by Armenians therefore never even discussed, it is irrevelant whether Armenians consider it serious or not, the offer is officially there. I think if Armenians officially gave up on their claims over Karabagh, Azerbaijan would cede a thin buffer zone between western reaches of Karabagh and Armenia proper under the supervision of Russia perhaps, Azerbaijanis know their limits, as long as it is a near complete victory, they can forsake minor things. Its their territory they don't even need to compromise, but for a smooth transtion they have to.
    Autonomy wouldn’t be enough. It must be complete separation with at least the Lachin corridor to Armenia, while the other Karabakh regions are given back to Azerbaijan , that’s the bare minimum position I can see Armenians willing to take. Artsakh Armenians don’t trust the Azerbaijani Goverment.



  20. #380
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    Default Re: Azerbaijan-Armenia war over Nagorno Karabakh

    Quote Originally Posted by Derpy Hooves View Post
    Autonomy wouldn’t be enough. It must be complete separation with at least the Lachin corridor to Armenia, while the other Karabakh regions are given back to Azerbaijan , that’s the bare minimum position I can see Armenians willing to take. Artsakh Armenians don’t trust the Azerbaijani Goverment.
    I can't see why any population would voluntarily accept inclusion within a country that was less free than they currently are. Especially given the knowledge, that Azerbijan is becoming less free over time, while Nagorno Karabakh is trending more free.

    Which really only leaves one option on the table, which is conquest through military action, and the subsequent 'cleansing' of any current residents who haven't already been 'encouraged' to leave. Justified by the fact that the same thing was done in reverse 30 years ago, which was justified by prior violence within the Soviet Union, which was justified by war in 1919, which was justified by violence involving the Russian Empire, which was justified by violence involving Persian Shahs, Ottoman Sultans, Melikdoms, Crusades, Turks, Arabs, Sassanids, Romans, Alexander the Great... blah blah. Carry on.
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